pdc093 said:

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had a bad night and overslept.

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Hope everything is well with you, 'hawg.

You are a TA treasure.
Can't tell you how informative and valued your knowledge and expertise (for us 'lay' folks) has been with this thread.
THANK YOU!

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thirdcoast said:

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He calls for his momma in the 2019 arrest also. So the dramatic value on that aspect is reduced a bit. Also he is ultimately cooperative, but not immediately in the 19' video.

That all said, I don't see that doing with a 2020 video of a handcuffed and unconcious Floyd with a knee on his neck. Just too powerful of evidence against an OD argument.

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Not when the state's own ME said he could NOT say but/for Chauvin's knee to the neck Floyd would have survived and further that under any other circumstances he would have found the manner of death to be an OD and not homicide.

Throw in the police training manual showing the maximal restraint technique including the knee restraint, the body cam video wherein the officers discuss concern for Floyd and excited delirium??

That's a lot of reasonable doubt thrown into the mix.

aggiehawg said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Only two white males and none over the age of 40? That's not good.

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I wouldn't say that necessarily. No matter how the media and the prosecution tries to spin it, this is not case about racism. And I think older jurors will be more immune to that type of appeal than younger it's-all-about-the-feelz jurors. My .02.

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A white male over 40 is almost assuredly the least likely "go along to get along" demographic. If you need a juror to stand their ground in deliberations, that's the pond you should be fishing in.

Didn't catch the number but next prospective juror is up. Female.

She has worked with a police department in the suburbs would that move the needle? She already has her opinions and can't be impartial.

Cahill excuses for cause.

Juror #103 is up. Female.

She has her own company and is going to be tied up. She wasn't employed when she filled out the questionnaire. She has a scheduled goals and financial penalties if she doesn't meet them.

Had a very strong emotional reaction to the video. Not sure if that constitutes bias or not, she says.

She's crying.

Cahill excuses for cause.

Out of prospects for the morning. Recess until 1:15.

Keegan99 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Only two white males and none over the age of 40? That's not good.

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I wouldn't say that necessarily. No matter how the media and the prosecution tries to spin it, this is not case about racism. And I think older jurors will be more immune to that type of appeal than younger it's-all-about-the-feelz jurors. My .02.

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A white male over 40 is almost assuredly the least likely "go along to get along" demographic. If you need a juror to attend their ground in deliberations, that's the pond you should be fishing in.

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And that's the pond that the state will use a peremptory to strike until they run out of them.

The two jurors I am most concerned about is the one in her early twenties we have dubbed Ms. AWESOME and the nurse in her fifties.

aggiehawg said:

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Keegan99 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Only two white males and none over the age of 40? That's not good.

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I wouldn't say that necessarily. No matter how the media and the prosecution tries to spin it, this is not case about racism. And I think older jurors will be more immune to that type of appeal than younger it's-all-about-the-feelz jurors. My .02.

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A white male over 40 is almost assuredly the least likely "go along to get along" demographic. If you need a juror to attend their ground in deliberations, that's the pond you should be fishing in.

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And that's the pond that the state will use a peremptory to strike until they run out of them.

The two jurors I am most concerned about is the one in her early twenties we have dubbed Ms. AWESOME and the nurse in her fifties.

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Demographics aren't always enough. I had an oil and gas lease termination jury trial where we had a couple of substantial businessmen over 40 on the jury, and they let a 40 year old female prison guard dominate the deliberations and cow them in to finding no cessation of production (this lady told them that she would only find a cessation if there was video tape showing the well not pumping for the requisite time period--the operator was an old man missing a leg).

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Ms. AWESOME and the nurse in her fifties.

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Agree on these 2. Not too worried about Ms. AWESOME because I think the others will also pick up on her eagerness & youth.

Can the jurors be instructed to NOT talk about their work experience? If you know a nurse is on the panel, the normal response of the others, I'd assume, would be to ask her opinion on things. She's certainly been cautioned on that, but no one from the court is in there to object. To me, she is the most questionable, but honestly if you think back to the first people chosen most of them had negative views of Chauvin so any of them could be disruptive in deliberations. I think Cahill was awfully permissive & tried hard to rehabilitate several sitting jurors.

edit: Even if she never spoke up but they know she's a nurse, would her "vote" sway others because they might assume she understood the intricate medical stuff better?

Not vouching for the source but

aggiehawg said:

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thirdcoast said:

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He calls for his momma in the 2019 arrest also. So the dramatic value on that aspect is reduced a bit. Also he is ultimately cooperative, but not immediately in the 19' video.

That all said, I don't see that doing with a 2020 video of a handcuffed and unconcious Floyd with a knee on his neck. Just too powerful of evidence against an OD argument.

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Not when the state's own ME said he could NOT say but/for Chauvin's knee to the neck Floyd would have survived and further that under any other circumstances he would have found the manner of death to be an OD and not homicide.

Throw in the police training manual showing the maximal restraint technique including the knee restraint, the body cam video wherein the officers discuss concern for Floyd and excited delirium??

That's a lot of reasonable doubt thrown into the mix.

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Thats a dash of reasonable doubt sprinkled on video evidence of an unconcious handcuffed man being choked with deadly force.

I could say the same thing about any other person with serious health issues who was choked to death. Maybe even an elderly white man on deathbed in hospital, who died coincidentally after a black nurse held a pillow over his face.

I hate the racism nonsense narrative and sensationalism over this case, but at best Chauvin killed this man unintentionally with wreckless or excessive force. It became excessive/wreckless after Floyd became unconcious.

We will see how powerful the defense OD argument is and where the jury lands in relation to law.

I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

Math is on my side in terms of probabilities of OD vs
lack of oxygen. BUT of course presumption of innocence, and fair due process must commence.

bcasey03 said:

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Do you really not know what choking is?

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Yes, it can be used to describe crimping or compression of an airway or blood flow. Similar to colloquial use of strangle.

Or it can be used to describe a food obstruction in airway during a meal at Luby's.

I'll let the people figure out which use applies in the Chauvin video.

thirdcoast said:

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I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

Math is on my side in terms of probabilities of OD vs
lack of oxygen. BUT of course presumption of innocence, and fair due process must commence.

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Just looking for your personal opinion. What numbers do you put on the probabilities of OD vs lack of oxygen?

(1) WEB EXTRA: George Floyd's 2019 Minneapolis Police Arrest - YouTube

Just watched this for the first time. Dude accidentally killed himself.

aggiehawg said:

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I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

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But you are the one claiming Floyd was choked to death without any medical evidence to back that up.

The OD theory as the origin of the cardiopulmonary arrest is based on medical evidence.

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The only medical evidence I have seen that could even be applied to temporary strangulation of oxygen to brain would be tiny spots under skin called "petechiae". I have no idea whether that is more or less visible in certain skin pigments. All dead bodies show signs of no oxygen regardless of how they died. If im a ME and get a body with no understanding of circumstances the body went thru, I may come to a conclusion on drugs.

People get choked unconcious all the time on video with no bodily damage or any evidence they were choked. I don't understand how that point is so hard to grasp.

If you could show medical evidence/damage after being choked unconcious, your argument would be stronger. But in reality the difference between someone being temporary unconcious and dead from a choke hold is a just few minutes.

Sometimes people are strangled to death and video or witness testimony leads to a conviction regardless of medical evidence. This case is different because it was a cop supposedly doing his job and Floyd was high on drugs. I get it.

thirdcoast said:

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aggiehawg said:

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thirdcoast said:

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He calls for his momma in the 2019 arrest also. So the dramatic value on that aspect is reduced a bit. Also he is ultimately cooperative, but not immediately in the 19' video.

That all said, I don't see that doing with a 2020 video of a handcuffed and unconcious Floyd with a knee on his neck. Just too powerful of evidence against an OD argument.

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Not when the state's own ME said he could NOT say but/for Chauvin's knee to the neck Floyd would have survived and further that under any other circumstances he would have found the manner of death to be an OD and not homicide.

Throw in the police training manual showing the maximal restraint technique including the knee restraint, the body cam video wherein the officers discuss concern for Floyd and excited delirium??

That's a lot of reasonable doubt thrown into the mix.

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Thats a dash of reasonable doubt sprinkled on video evidence of an unconcious handcuffed man being choked with deadly force.

I could say the same thing about any other person with serious health issues who was choked to death. Maybe even an elderly white man on deathbed in hospital, who died coincidentally after a black nurse held a pillow over his face.

I hate the racism nonsense narrative and sensationalism over this case, but at best Chauvin killed this man unintentionally with wreckless or excessive force. It became excessive/wreckless after Floyd became unconcious.

We will see how powerful the defense OD argument is and where the jury lands in relation to law.

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The prosecutions theory of the crime is that but for Chauvin's actions, Floyd would have survived just long enough to die of an overdose. Bold strategy but in this political climate it just might work.

schwack schwack said:

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Ms. AWESOME and the nurse in her fifties.

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Agree on these 2. Not too worried about Ms. AWESOME because I think the others will also pick up on her eagerness & youth.

Can the jurors be instructed to NOT talk about their work experience? If you know a nurse is on the panel, the normal response of the others, I'd assume, would be to ask her opinion on things. She's certainly been cautioned on that, but no one from the court is in there to object. To me, she is the most questionable, but honestly if you think back to the first people chosen most of them had negative views of Chauvin so any of them could be disruptive in deliberations. I think Cahill was awfully permissive & tried hard to rehabilitate several sitting jurors.

edit: Even if she never spoke up but they know she's a nurse, would her "vote" sway others because they might assume she understood the intricate medical stuff better?

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Every jury has different dynamics at play. I have stated before that most every time I guessed who would end up being the foreperson of the jury, I was wrong.

This jury skews female 7-5 and older with only two in their 20s. In normal circumstances that could favor the defense. But these aren't normal circumstances. And there is no telling what will happen with crowds and demonstrations happening outside of the court room when the trial proper gets underway.

My problem with the nurse is her SJW tendencies. Hard to gauge how truly deep those go. To me she starts out with tremendous sympathy for Floyd, despite the presumption of innocence for Chauvin. Cahill's ruling excluding Dr. Vincent's testimony this morning lessens my previous concern as perhaps there might not be as much race baiting in this trial as the prosecution originally planned.

Besides the medical evidence and the nurse's own experiences with resuscitative efforts, the fact that the primary reason Floyd remained restrained for the time period was caused in part to the delay in the response of EMS and the firefighters. That was on the dispatch giving the wrong address. She knows when a patient is coding, every second counts and police are not trained paramedics.

If the argument comes down to should Floyd have been repositioned into the recovery position sooner in her mind? That's when I think the exit ramp of the third degree murder charge comes into play.

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This case is different because it was a cop supposedly doing his job and Floyd was high on drugs. I get it.

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Over three times the lethal dose of fentanyl AND methamphetamines. Speedballing in other words.

Floyd requested at least twice that the officers let him lie down on the ground. Was he already experiencing dizziness at that point? Impossible to tell.

But here's the question for you. If Floyd had survived for another hour or so after arrival at the hospital before coding, do you think the knee was still the cause of death?

thirdcoast said:

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I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

Math is on my side in terms of probabilities of OD vs
lack of oxygen. BUT of course presumption of innocence, and fair due process must commence.

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I haven't seen that math.

About 15 minutes late for the afternoon session. Maybe a juror is late?


ETA: We're back.

Group instruction now for the afternoon panel.

thirdcoast said:

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aggiehawg said:

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I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

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But you are the one claiming Floyd was choked to death without any medical evidence to back that up.

The OD theory as the origin of the cardiopulmonary arrest is based on medical evidence.

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The only medical evidence I have seen that could even be applied to temporary strangulation of oxygen to brain would be tiny spots under skin called "petechiae". I have no idea whether that is more or less visible in certain skin pigments. All dead bodies show signs of no oxygen regardless of how they died. If im a ME and get a body with no understanding of circumstances the body went thru, I may come to a conclusion on drugs.

People get choked unconcious all the time on video with no bodily damage or any evidence they were choked. I don't understand how that point is so hard to grasp.

If you could show medical evidence/damage after being choked unconcious, your argument would be stronger. But in reality the difference between someone being temporary unconcious and dead from a choke hold is a just few minutes.

Sometimes people are strangled to death and video or witness testimony leads to a conviction regardless of medical evidence. This case is different because it was a cop supposedly doing his job and Floyd was high on drugs. I get it.

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Therein lies the problem: was it the perimortem condition of the lungs (filled with fluid) which caused loss of consciousness/death or the pressure applied to the neck by the knee? Getting past all the emotion, that is the hard thing the jury will have to decide. I just cannot see convicting Chauvin of murder of any degree. Manslaughter is a stretch which could be reversed on appeal.

First juror up. Been to protests.

Juror 109 is up.

Male sounds on the young side. He has gone to another protest since he filled out the questionnaire. Didn't carry a sign just marched.

Sounds biased, time for him to go.

He knows about the settlement of 27 million to the family.

He says he could still be impartial but thinks ti was a dumb move by the city to do it in the middle of jury selection.

He has served on a criminal jury trial before in Broward County Florida. Currently unemployed and no immediate prospects.

Nelson is up to inquire.

He lives close to the Third Precinct. Was concerned about personal safety if selected.

But he was impressed by the fortifications to alleviate his concerns.

He was an alternate so he didn't go into deliberations in that Florida trial.

rwpag71 said:

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thirdcoast said:

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I'm not on the jury. But interesting that you don't apply the same principle to those here claiming OD as cause of death, assuming you or a family member were the victim.

Math is on my side in terms of probabilities of OD vs
lack of oxygen. BUT of course presumption of innocence, and fair due process must commence.

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Just looking for your personal opinion. What numbers do you put on the probabilities of OD vs lack of oxygen?

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I'll do better than that. I'll make up an argument that equalizes the probability just for a logical exercise.

Let's throw out fact that Floyd was a drug addict with no known OD history, even though that would certainly be used to argue higher probability of death by OD if he had.

Let's say Floyd was on a fentanyl bender for couple days, let's throw out 47 of those 48 hours of potential drug OD risk and say there was just a 1 hour window of high OD risk potential and it overlapped entirely with the police encounter.

Let's say there was only 15min from when Floyd was first approached across street for fake $20 to when Chauvin placed his knee on neck by squad car for 8 min. So that is a total of 23 min window for Floyd to go unconcious by OD out of the 60 min window of high risk potential.

We all saw him go unconcious after the few minutes he happened to have knee on his neck for 8 min. There was prob only about a 2-3 min window max where Chauvin had his knee positioned to choke out Floyd, and it coincided when Floyd actually went unconcious (but let's ignore the simultaneousness).

23/60 = .38 death by OD
3/8= .38 death by oxygen choked off

Now if you are going to concede the knee caused the unconsciousness, but the OD killed him, you would also have to concede the force that was strong enough to make him pass out was then maintained for an additional 2-3 min which is enough time to cause cardiac arrest.

The odds against OD get much worse if you expand the time window of his fentanyl ingestion and OD risk.

Not at all a legal argument, but challenges the timing argument of a coincidental OD.