2PacShakur said:

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AgResearch said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's cause choking to death wasn't the manner of death, homicide was.

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Drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure is not homicide.

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Again, Floyd did not die due to drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure. That was not the cause of his death.

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aggiehawg said:

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I think Cahill is walking a very fine line on excluding the May 2019 arrest and OD by Floyd. I also think the prosecution will easily open that door anyway with drug addiction testimony. Using his buddies and family members who did drugs with him, opens the door, in my view.

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BMX Bandit said:

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You keep bringing up MMA, then get mad that people call out why your MMA comparision is so bad.

aggiehawg again answered. see here post above. you can have the last word. you were destroyed on this months ago and haven't improved your arguments

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aggiehawg said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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The ME's 302 even stated that Floyd's physical exertions before the neck restraint was even applied were more instrumental in causing the cardiopulmonary arrest given Floyd's preexisting medical conditions (75% blocked artery for one thing) and level of intoxication from his voluntary ingestion of illegal drugs.

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Mind pointing this out? I don't think he specifically identified the physical exertion as the source for his cardiopulmonary arrest, but as part of the conditions building towards it.

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Sure. My OP in starting this thread discusses the 302 and the prosecution's tardiness in divulging it to the defense.

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etxag02 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's not true.

The Hennepin Co and family-ordered autopsies ruled homicide as the cause of death due to his restraint. The Hennepin Co report did list drug use as being a factor that could have contributed to the death of George Floyd. But it reported that neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest played a larger role in his death.

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aggiehawg said:

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etxag02 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's not true.

The Hennepin Co and family-ordered autopsies ruled homicide as the cause of death due to his restraint. The Hennepin Co report did list drug use as being a factor that could have contributed to the death of George Floyd. But it reported that neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest played a larger role in his death.

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Laypeople often conflate cause of death with manner of death. And that becomes misleading.

Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. That's the medical term.

The manner of death is an opinion of the origin of the cause of death. ME stated that under any other circumstance, judging from his drug level and poor health he would say Floyd died of a fentanyl and other drug overdose. In terms of the manner of death, the ME's opinion comes down to the but/for question.

Here that boils down to but for Chauvin's knee restraint, would Floyd be alive? The ME could not say that. That's a problem for the prosecution.

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AgResearch said:

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2PacShakur said:

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AgResearch said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's cause choking to death wasn't the manner of death, homicide was.

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Drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure is not homicide.

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Again, Floyd did not die due to drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure. That was not the cause of his death.

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Being restrained did not cause his death. MN is going to burn when this officer is rightly acquitted.

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aginlakeway said:

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Can we keep this thread to what is actually going on in court please?

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aginlakeway said:

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Can we keep this thread to what is actually going on in court please?

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BQ_90 said:

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aginlakeway said:

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Can we keep this thread to what is actually going on in court please?

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Can you just start another thread, label it George Floyd Trial Discussion Only.

maybe the mods will help keep a thread like that clean

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aggiehawg said:

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etxag02 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's not true.

The Hennepin Co and family-ordered autopsies ruled homicide as the cause of death due to his restraint. The Hennepin Co report did list drug use as being a factor that could have contributed to the death of George Floyd. But it reported that neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest played a larger role in his death.

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Laypeople often conflate cause of death with manner of death. And that becomes misleading.

Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. That's the medical term.

The manner of death is an opinion of the origin of the cause of death. ME stated that under any other circumstance, judging from his drug level and poor health he would say Floyd died of a fentanyl and other drug overdose. In terms of the manner of death, the ME's opinion comes down to the but/for question.

Here that boils down to but for Chauvin's knee restraint, would Floyd be alive? The ME could not say that. That's a problem for the prosecution.

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aginlakeway said:

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BQ_90 said:

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aginlakeway said:

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Can we keep this thread to what is actually going on in court please?

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Can you just start another thread, label it George Floyd Trial Discussion Only.

maybe the mods will help keep a thread like that clean

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Is that what is desired? Hawg?

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2PacShakur said:

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AgResearch said:

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2PacShakur said:

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AgResearch said:

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's cause choking to death wasn't the manner of death, homicide was.

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Drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure is not homicide.

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Again, Floyd did not die due to drug overdose and/or drug related heart failure. That was not the cause of his death.

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Being restrained did not cause his death. MN is going to burn when this officer is rightly acquitted.

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I have helicopters flying over my house every night the last few, but do try to help by keeping Texans away from Minnesota.

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aggiehawg said:

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etxag02 said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe that choking causes enough bodily damage to be cause of death in an autopsy?

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Of course it can. But there was no physical evidence that Floyd was choked to death.

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That's not true.

The Hennepin Co and family-ordered autopsies ruled homicide as the cause of death due to his restraint. The Hennepin Co report did list drug use as being a factor that could have contributed to the death of George Floyd. But it reported that neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest played a larger role in his death.

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Laypeople often conflate cause of death with manner of death. And that becomes misleading.

Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. That's the medical term.

The manner of death is an opinion of the origin of the cause of death. ME stated that under any other circumstance, judging from his drug level and poor health he would say Floyd died of a fentanyl and other drug overdose. In terms of the manner of death, the ME's opinion comes down to the but/for question.

Here that boils down to but for Chauvin's knee restraint, would Floyd be alive? The ME could not say that. That's a problem for the prosecution.

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the enigma said:

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I have only read the last few pages of this post, and really don't have a dog in this fight but one reason why the comparison is bad is time. Professional fighters/UFC/MMA guys are choked for maybe 30secs max continuously, not 8 minutes like in the video. The signs of choking take time to develop. Another reason is that not one fighter has had an autopsy after losing a fight to a choke so you don't know if there are minute signs in the soft tissues or not. Autopsies typically are not done on live people so (although unlikely) there could be contusions or other soft tissue injuries that go unnoticed after a fight. Would the fighter die if the choke was applied continuously for 8 minutes, sure, but you would have signs develop in that time, like petechiae that was mentioned earlier

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aggiehawg said:

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aginlakeway said:

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BQ_90 said:

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aginlakeway said:

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Can we keep this thread to what is actually going on in court please?

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Can you just start another thread, label it George Floyd Trial Discussion Only.

maybe the mods will help keep a thread like that clean

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Is that what is desired? Hawg?

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Doesn't matter to me. But I do think the mods dislike multiple threads on the same subject. In my mind, when the actual trial begins on March 29th, a new thread should be started, though.

The official Chauvin trial thread with the stars and all.

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Quote:

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Patently false statement. ME ruled it a homicide and said Floyd's heart and lungs stopped functioning "while being restrained" by law enforcement officers.

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Quote:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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aggiehawg said:

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Patently false statement. ME ruled it a homicide and said Floyd's heart and lungs stopped functioning "while being restrained" by law enforcement officers.

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"Prior" to being on the ground. That's the distinction. Exertions by Floyd that he engaged in, prior to being on the ground.

Chauvin never touched Floyd before he was on the ground or going down to the ground from the squad car's rear seat.

So my statement is not patently false within the context of the charges against Derek Chauvin. Those charges are what is under discussion and whether the evidence supports each element of the offenses charged beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's why the but/for question is critical for determining manner of death in a criminal trial.

Were this a wrongful death civil case, your point might have more relevance.

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aggiehawg said:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Assuming facts not in evidence. Can you say he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl and meth in his system during such exertions? No you cannot. Therefore, irrelevant to this case.

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Patently false statement. ME ruled it a homicide and said Floyd's heart and lungs stopped functioning "while being restrained" by law enforcement officers.

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"Prior" to being on the ground. That's the distinction. Exertions by Floyd that he engaged in, prior to being on the ground.

Chauvin never touched Floyd before he was on the ground or going down to the ground from the squad car's rear seat.

So my statement is not patently false within the context of the charges against Derek Chauvin. Those charges are what is under discussion and whether the evidence supports each element of the offenses charged beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's why the but/for question is critical for determining manner of death in a criminal trial.

Were this a wrongful death civil case, your point might have more relevance.

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Again, he said that those actions contributed to an unfortunate outcome, he didn't specifically state that the moment the cardiac event occurred. He couldn't identify a specific moment Floyd became critical.

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Assuming facts not in evidence. Can you say he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl and meth in his system during such exertions? No you cannot. Therefore, irrelevant to this case.

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So, he's both a habitual user and also couldn't tolerate the drug he was abusing?

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Quote:

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"I'm skeptical of the notion of opioid overdose as the cause here," said David Juurlink, head of the Division of Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Center in Toronto. "The sequence of events isn't characteristic of opioid overdose."

Fentanyl kills by shutting down the part of the brain that controls respiration. Breathing slows, then stops, followed by the heart.

If Floyd had ingested an opioid and fell asleep on his way toward an overdose death, several experts told The Post, he wouldn't, or couldn't, have spent the next 20 minutes coherently interacting with police, repeatedly describing his claustrophobia and anxiety, battling with them as they tried to put him in a squad car and struggling against the three officers who pinned him facedown on the street. Instead, he would have become even more sluggish on the path toward unconsciousness and death, these experts said.

"It's just complete garbage to call it an overdose," said Kimberly Sue, medical director of the Harm Reduction Coalition and a Yale School of Medicine instructor. In an opioid overdose, "a person is basically blue, unresponsive. It happens usually from the moment people use to 10 minutes."

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Barnes said fentanyl could, theoretically, lower Floyd's blood pressure to the point that oxygenated blood was no longer able to flow through the clogged arteries to his heart. But the sequence of events again makes that much less likely than cardiac arrest as a result of the pressure on his neck and back, he said.

Floyd, Barnes noted, was walking and talking, then struggling with the officers, before he was pinned to the ground.

"I always ask: Why did it happen at that moment?" Barnes said. "Why didn't his breathing stop two minutes earlier?"

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2PacShakur said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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He was healthy enough to play basketball regularly and helped move some furniture so he wasn't going to "pop".

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Assuming facts not in evidence. Can you say he had three times the lethal dose of fentanyl and meth in his system during such exertions? No you cannot. Therefore, irrelevant to this case.

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So, he's both a habitual user and also couldn't tolerate the drug he was abusing?

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Aren't you the "pre-game expert" here? You pre-game for a night out but you also pre-game for a pick up basketball game or helping a relative move furniture? Not sure what level of prep is required and how consistent that dosage ends up being.

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