***** THE ACOLYTE Show Discussion (see note inside) Thread *****

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fig96
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 10:54a, 7/26/24
AG
Also, the Jedi aren't the bad guys. That goes against everything we've ever known about them.

Can they be conflicted, have to make tough choices, be on the wrong side of things? Absolutely.

But as soon as you try to make some argument that there's no clear light and dark sides of the Force, good and evil, you've lost the plot.
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Belton Ag
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In reply to fig96 • 10:58a, 7/26/24
AG
fig96 said:
Also, the Jedi aren't the bad guys. That goes against everything we've ever known about them.

Can they be conflicted, have to make tough choices, be on the wrong side of things? Absolutely.

But as soon as you try to make some argument that there's no clear light and dark sides of the Force, good and evil, you've lost the plot.
That's not true, The Last Jedi went into this quit extensively and it turned out great.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to Red Five • 10:59a, 7/26/24
AG
Red Five said:
I said after the final episode that I thought the more interesting show would have been one focused around the tension between the Jedi and the Senate. David Harewood was amazing in the 5 minutes of screen time he got, and his comment to Vernestra about Jedi thinking they can control the uncontrollable (their emotions, not the Force) is what makes them dangerous was more thought provoking and powerful than any other idea the show presented. That plays neatly into the idea of Jedi as walking nuclear bombs as well. Having Vernestra go increasingly astray as she tries to hide the fact that a former Jedi (and her former padawan) has become a serial killer would be an effective way to show the cracks in the Jedi moral foundations as well.


Agreed. This may ultimately have been a better show, a true political thriller.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to fig96 • 11:32a, 7/26/24
AG
fig96 said:
Also, the Jedi aren't the bad guys. That goes against everything we've ever known about them.

Can they be conflicted, have to make tough choices, be on the wrong side of things? Absolutely.

But as soon as you try to make some argument that there's no clear light and dark sides of the Force, good and evil, you've lost the plot.


I don't necessarily agree with this point. But I think this point goes into a couple fundamental questions about Star Wars.

What exactly is the Force and can there be gray or balanced Force users?

Yes, Star Wars could be constructed solely as Jedi = Good Guys and Sith = Bad guys. But this really leads to limited storytelling and one of the fundamental stories mined over and over again is Jedi become Sith. See, Anakin/Count Dooku/Ben Solo from the movies Qimir from this show. Ulic/Revan/Exar Kun/Jacen Solo, etc. from the EU.

This leads to a fundamental question, is there some flaw in the Jedi Order that leads to so many fallen Jedi? I think the answers to this question can lead to interesting shows. The one answer that comes up over and over again, is sending Jedi to war as the guardians of peace leads to Jedi falling to the dark side through exposure to violence. KOTOR 1&2 really raised this question by asking are the Jedi wrong to send their knights into war knowing that some of them will fall to the dark side? I don't feel like the games give an answer, nor do I think there is an absolute right answer.

This show should have addressed the Jedi's role as guardians of justice and how hard implementing justice truly is. But this show never got there, nor am I really sure any Star Wars content really addresses this, because justice is a very sensitive issue and tend to alienate segments of your audience.

Andor really raised the stakes by showing how hard a rebellion is, how rebellions are going to lead to villainous decisions.

Every binary story goes through a phase where the good guys are the bad guys for some stories, but still retain the good guys in the overall story (Westerns, Cops/Robbers, war stories, etc.)

I am not advocating that the Jedi are the permeant bad guys, but for individual stories they can be portrayed as the bad guys for a specific story. It is just when the Jedi are going to be the "bad guys" (really antagonists) in a story, it has to be set up and explained to the audience. This show certainly skipped that step.
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Dekker_Lentz
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11:39a, 7/26/24
AG
To add the Gray Jedi/ balanced force users comment above.

I do think it is an open question in Star Wars if there isn't a third choice to Jedi/Sith, someone who fully embodies the entirety of the Force (light and the dark side) who lives in balance. I sort of feel like Star Wars needs this, otherwise every Force story is going to revolve around Jedi falling to the dark side and then getting redeemed back to the light. I could be wrong about this.

The old EU was really starting to explore that concept but then Disney stepped in and I feel it kinda got lost.
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redline248
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11:51a, 7/26/24
AG
Star Wars, in it's most basic form is Good vs Evil. No matter how you spin, that is the core of the entire universe. "...Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

Andor explores the gray area a little more, but it still comes down to good people doing some bad things to STOP evil.

The Jedi are originally meant to be good. Period. If you want them to have their moral compass challenged, fine. But they need to have a moral compass.


What was the moral compass in this show?
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Cliff.Booth
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11:56a, 7/26/24
This was bound to happen when SW landed in the laps of people for whom good and evil are totally subjective. It's like totally an evil vibe. A Jedi has to live HER truth. He has like a Light aura. I'm going through my Dark Era. Yas.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to redline248 • 12:04p, 7/26/24
AG
redline248 said:
Star Wars, in it's most basic form is Good vs Evil. No matter how you spin, that is the core of the entire universe. "...Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire."

Andor explores the gray area a little more, but it still comes down to good people doing some bad things to STOP evil.

The Jedi are originally meant to be good. Period. If you want them to have their moral compass challenged, fine. But they need to have a moral compass.


What was the moral compass in this show?


This is my point in a nut shell, this show never established a moral issue to compass around. It seems Headland just assumed everyone was going to buy into Jedi being the bad guys in this situation without ever really explaining why.

This to me is the fatal flaw to the show. Mainly, we are arguing over why this happened. Poor writing, agenda pushing, lack of vision, untalented people, etc.

Getting back to Star Wars more generally for a second, your quoting from the opening crawl raises a second issue in my mind. If George Lucas is truthful and he conceived Star Wars as the Vietnam War, then the Evil Empire is America.

So, I think even in black/white viewing of Star Wars we can get to the gray pretty easily.

I am not convinced Saw Gerrera is a "good guy doing some bad things." I think he is a bad guy helping out the right cause.

I don't disagree that Star Wars can strictly stay black/white, it is just if it does, it can't ever grow beyond that.

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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 12:06p, 7/26/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
This was bound to happen when SW landed in the laps of people for whom good and evil are totally subjective. It's like totally an evil vibe. A Jedi has to live HER truth. He has like a Light aura. I'm going through my Dark Era. Yas.


Do you believe good and evil doesn't have a subjective component?

Edit: to add a follow up question, Did Anakin throwing the Emperor down the Death Star 2 shaft objectively atone for him murdering countless younglings? To me this seems like a subjective question without an objective answer.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 12:08p, 7/26/24
In SW, there is certainly room for someone on the good side to be lured to the bad, or someone who has been shrouded in darkness to be redeemed, or for someone who is generally good to have a moment of confusion or weakness and do bad, but still, the Light side is the Light side, the Jedi fight for what is good against what is evil.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 12:11p, 7/26/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
In SW, there is certainly room for someone on the good side to be lured to the bad, or someone who has been shrouded in darkness to be redeemed, or for someone who is generally good to have a moment of confusion or weakness and do bad, but still, the Light side is the Light side, the Jedi fight for what is good against what is evil.


But this really doesn't answer my question. Is there not a subjective element to good and evil?
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Cliff.Booth
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12:13p, 7/26/24
To some extent, obviously. But from the beginning did George Lucas frame the Jedi as practicing some religion that is just one school of thought not necessarily any better or worse than other religions of thought, or was the original trilogy pretty much straight up good guys vs bad guys, love vs hate, light vs dark?
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 12:17p, 7/26/24
Dekker_Lentz said:


Edit: to add a follow up question, Did Anakin throwing the Emperor down the Death Star 2 shaft objectively atone for him murdering countless younglings? To me this seems like a subjective question without an objective answer.


In the Western tradition, yes, an act of good from a repentant man offers atonement, if it is done in genuine goodness. It is a "fruit of the spirit", so to speak.
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fig96
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 12:31p, 7/26/24
AG
I don't think there being a gray area negates any of that.

Just like in life, there's times where well intentioned people make poor choices or people who aren't inherently "bad" but do things solely in their own self interests. For all it's flaws we saw this some in The Last Jedi with the arms dealers (which I personally think was a super interesting thing to explore).

But from the jump with A New Hope we've had discussion of the Light Side and the Dark Side, that there's power in anger and hate but it leads down a dark path. You might have a character like Qimir who personally feels he resides somewhere in the middle, but when he mows down a dozen Jedi it's hard to place him in the neutral part of the spectrum.

Individual characters, and maybe even an individual Jedi, might reside in that gray area temporarily or permanently, but suddenly painting the Jedi as a whole as this corrupt organization just doesn't work in the context of the bigger story.
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fig96
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In reply to Belton Ag • 12:33p, 7/26/24
AG
Belton Ag said:
fig96 said:
Also, the Jedi aren't the bad guys. That goes against everything we've ever known about them.

Can they be conflicted, have to make tough choices, be on the wrong side of things? Absolutely.

But as soon as you try to make some argument that there's no clear light and dark sides of the Force, good and evil, you've lost the plot.
That's not true, The Last Jedi went into this quit extensively and it turned out great.
I realize this is tongue and cheek, but the idea of exploring that gray area was actually something I liked about The Last Jedi. That gray area can absolutely exist in the SW universe, but that doesn't mean there aren't also clear good and evil sides.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 12:37p, 7/26/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
To some extent, obviously. But from the beginning did George Lucas frame the Jedi as practicing some religion that is just one school of thought not necessarily any better or worse than other religions of thought, or was the original trilogy pretty much straight up good guys vs bad guys, love vs hate, light vs dark?


Once again, I don't disagree that Star Wars can be constructed this way, my point is that it will always be very limiting from a narrative stand point.

I would argue the OT is much more silent on these issues that is why we have almost 50 years of arguing about this and ginormous amounts of media trying to explore it.

In looking at the OT, most of our knowledge about the Jedi's are as follows:

Ben Kenobi, who makes statements that are both true or untrue from a certain point of view aka a liar.

Yoda, who is dying, doesn't want to train Luke and throws him into a Dark Side Cave without any preparations.

Han, who claims the Jedi is just a hokey religion.

Leia, who refers to Kenobi not as a Jedi, but as a General.

The on the Dark Side:

Darth Vader who claims the Dark Side has power. Who wants to convert Luke to the Dark Side. He is not labeled as a Sith.

The Emperor who tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side not labeled as a Sith.

So really, in just the three movies the Jedi are poorly defined at best and the Sith are nonexistent.

As to Good guys vs Bad Guys. Sure, I will generally concede that the Rebellion is made up of Good Guys and the Empire is Made up of bad guys. But then you have characters like Lando and Boba Fett who have some ambiguity to them. I include Boba Fett, because arguably he is just a man doing a job. But we can make him solidly a bad guy.

It is the prequels that really flesh out the Jedi/Sith and honestly that leads to a lot more ambiguity, like how many children can you murder before redemption is impossible. Episode 6 equates Anakin to be in the same standing as Obi-Wan and Yoda. And Episode 3 shows him murdering small children.

Ultimately, I submit if Star Wars just a story about good beating evil then nothing after 4-6 should have been made and there should not be an EU.

But I think we all want there to be more to the story than that. We want some gray, some ambiguity, some more complicated story telling.

I think reasonable people can disagree where that line should be drawn.

Real life is fully of challenging moral issues and the best fiction reflects that.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to fig96 • 12:39p, 7/26/24
AG
fig96 said:
Belton Ag said:
fig96 said:
Also, the Jedi aren't the bad guys. That goes against everything we've ever known about them.

Can they be conflicted, have to make tough choices, be on the wrong side of things? Absolutely.

But as soon as you try to make some argument that there's no clear light and dark sides of the Force, good and evil, you've lost the plot.
That's not true, The Last Jedi went into this quit extensively and it turned out great.
I realize this is tongue and cheek, but the idea of exploring that gray area was actually something I liked about The Last Jedi. That gray area can absolutely exist in the SW universe, but that doesn't mean there aren't also clear good and evil sides.


Yeah I agree. Disney biggest issue is aside from Andor and rogue one, it refuses to commit to a meaningful exploration of the gray, but instead just throws it out there and does nothing with it.
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PatAg
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12:51p, 7/26/24
AG
This show is not the first star wars content to delve into the concept of good vs bad not being really black and white.
Some of the best books in the EU touched on teh topic.
It makes sense that the Jedi would get caught up in political machinations and beuaracracy, and basically have that cause their downfall.
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redline248
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In reply to PatAg • 12:54p, 7/26/24
AG
Some of the best books in the EU were probably written by experienced writers who knew how to actually tell a story.
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fig96
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In reply to PatAg • 1:08p, 7/26/24
AG
I thought the cause of their downfall was that they all got executed
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PatAg
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In reply to fig96 • 1:33p, 7/26/24
AG
fig96 said:
I thought the cause of their downfall was that they all got executed
You probably need to look up the definition of cause
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PatAg
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In reply to redline248 • 1:33p, 7/26/24
AG
redline248 said:
Some of the best books in the EU were probably written by experienced writers who knew how to actually tell a story.
Some of the writers were talented, but a lot were very bad. We just only really talk about the good ones.
Kinda like the tv shows
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to PatAg • 1:53p, 7/26/24
AG
PatAg said:
redline248 said:
Some of the best books in the EU were probably written by experienced writers who knew how to actually tell a story.
Some of the writers were talented, but a lot were very bad. We just only really talk about the good ones.
Kinda like the tv shows


This. Although teenage me still enjoyed the bad stuff.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 3:49p, 7/26/24
AG
All very well said.
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fig96
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In reply to PatAg • 8:44p, 7/26/24
AG
PatAg said:
fig96 said:
I thought the cause of their downfall was that they all got executed
You probably need to look up the definition of cause
Cause they were all dead
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Sea Speed
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3:13p, 7/28/24
AG
Ouch.




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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Sea Speed • 3:17p, 7/28/24
I volunteer to watch her movie and see if her statement is accurate.
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Jim01
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1:19p, 8/15/24
AG
I finally got around to bingeing this. My kids seemed uninterested and I just never had time during the summer to fire it up nice and loud on the big screen. I managed to avoid all spoilers and went in with low expectations because I knew it had been review bombed and I would randomly see comments largely saying it was bad.

I loved it!

1. It was cinematic!!! My biggest complaint of the SW shows is that they are often too digital and fake looking. This thing looked great. Some of the shots on the island were absolutely on par with a film. Were there still some so-so shots and effects? Sure. But overall it looked great and on top of that was scored great, which just made it feel epic and big like Star Wars should.

2. It was original! There has been so much complaint about treading the same ground. This was finally a show where it wasn't based off anything or anybody we knew before. Had we seen twins with Luke and Leia? Yes, but not like this. A Sith with a helmet? Sure, but I don't care. His helmet was cool and I loved the character. I found the storyline compelling and interesting. I didn't know which way it would go. It did a great job of taling heroes and turning them into villains and taking villains and showing their side of things. Bonus was that I liked all the setups for season 2 and the dangling threads to come back for more.

3. Fights! The fights were actually well choregraphed, high octane, and fun as hell. The battle in the forest was amazing. The twins fighting it out was great!

Sure there were nitpicky things. The young twins actress wasn't great and even the grown twins actress was hit or miss. Were there corny lines here and there? Sure, but that's true of all Star Wars. And because it isn't a film, there were some stilted effects and things like that. But come on! I don't really know what was not to like about this show. It was a big step in the right direction to me. A show that looked great, was original, compelling, and fun!

In short I guess I would say, imagine going back and showing that forest sequence to 10 year old you and saying "This is what Star Wars looks like in 30 years". I would have flipped out! It would have blown my mind! So just enjoy that we're alive in this time and enjoy Star Wars!!!!

I don't really plan on coming back to read this thread because I don't want naysayers harshing my mell, but just wanted to post me reaction.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Jim01 • 6:05p, 8/15/24
Your mell is only harshable if you care what other people think about what you like. One person's fun series is another person's thing they wish had been ****-piled in the pitch meeting. Some people think The Godfather is overhyped, boring crap. Some people unironically like Big Bang Theory. Everything is subjective here.
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Cliff.Booth
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8:30p, 8/19/24
Shocking development.

https://www.thewrap.com/the-acolyte-canceled-disney-plus/
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Cliff.Booth
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8:53p, 8/19/24
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concac
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:10p, 8/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
Shocking development.

https://www.thewrap.com/the-acolyte-canceled-disney-plus/
Thank God. Saves me from watching season 2.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to concac • 9:15p, 8/19/24
I was almost wondering if Disney would be bold enough to greenlight a second season but ****can Leslye to see if someone competent could redeem it. Definitely not worth the gamble, but I'd have been intrigued to see if it could be done.
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Moral High Horse
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9:46p, 8/19/24
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CheeseSndwch
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10:05p, 8/19/24
The power of one…season!
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