***** THE ACOLYTE Show Discussion (see note inside) Thread *****

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DrEvazanPhD
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 9:09p, 6/19/24
FL_Ag1998 said:
Cliff.Booth said:
No one in any other industry could, with all of the funding and resources one could ask for, fail this spectacularly and not fall on their sword and go away. This is what hiring for optics and whatever else was going on gets you.


But I believe that's contradictory to TCTTS' point. What he was saying is that it wasn't Disney's hire that failed (if you want to claim this show is a fail). Rather it's Disney's monolithic corporate way of filmmaking that failed and ruined what a talented filmmaker could have made.

They may have hired in part for optics (a gay female filmmaker) but the hire was fine. Its Disney's continued corporate involvement after the hire that's the problem.



You mean to put a chick in it and make her lame and gay?

My theory is that Kathlee Kennedy hates George Lucas with the passion of a thousand suns, and this her equivalent of Cartman making Scott tenorman eat his parents
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TCTTS
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:09p, 6/19/24
AG
What optics, though?

I genuinely don't understand this argument.

Headlund was HUGELY in demand after Russian Doll. She could do whatever the hell she wanted, and she chose this. Lucasfilm didn't go pluck her from obscurity in attempt to try and check some box.

Favreau - a white male and beloved industry stalwart - certainly wasn't an "optics" hire either.

Neither was J.J. Abrams, Rian Johnson, Ron Howard, or Tony Gilroy... all white men, all wildly talented/successful before joining the franchise.

Otherwise, we've had...

- A Hispanic male in Robert Rodriquez on The Book of Boba Fett, who was also a proven talent, if not an industry cult icon.

- An Asian woman in Deborah Chow on Obi-Wan Kenobi.

- And Dave Filoni, who is an Italian/Croatian male, who proceeded all of the above at the company.

This is everyone who has directed or movie or ran a show in the Disney Star Wars era.

So, how, again, is Lucasfilm hiring for "optics?"
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to redline248 • 9:09p, 6/19/24
AG
redline248 said:
I think the track record since 2012 is not good for Disney in that regard. So many issues with production and writers and directors...


Right. If Disney's Star Wars record over the past 10-12 years had been great and this show was the first stinker, then sure, put blame on the filmmaker. But considering this show is pretty par for the course with Disney Star Wars you kind of have to assume the problem is Disney's involvement during production, not who they've hired. Or at least 70-80% of the issue lies with Disney's post hiring processes.
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jokershady
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In reply to redline248 • 9:09p, 6/19/24
AG
Since 2012????? They were still putting out mega hits then and after…..

I'd say post Endgame at the earliest…..
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TCTTS
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 9:10p, 6/19/24
AG
FL_Ag1998 said:
Cliff.Booth said:
No one in any other industry could, with all of the funding and resources one could ask for, fail this spectacularly and not fall on their sword and go away. This is what hiring for optics and whatever else was going on gets you.


But I believe that's contradictory to TCTTS' point. What he was saying is that it wasn't Disney's hire that failed (if you want to claim this show is a fail). Rather it's Disney's monolithic corporate way of filmmaking that failed and ruined what a talented filmmaker could have made.

They may have hired in part for optics (a gay female filmmaker) but the hire was fine. Its Disney's continued corporate involvement after the hire that's the problem.

Bingo.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to jokershady • 9:11p, 6/19/24
AG
jokershady said:
Since 2012????? They were still putting out mega hits then and after…..

I'd say post Endgame at the earliest…..


I'm staying strictly with Star Wars Disney in my argument. Not Marvel Disney who had Feige leading things.
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TCTTS
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In reply to DrEvazanPhD • 9:12p, 6/19/24
AG
DrEvazanPhD said:
FL_Ag1998 said:
Cliff.Booth said:
No one in any other industry could, with all of the funding and resources one could ask for, fail this spectacularly and not fall on their sword and go away. This is what hiring for optics and whatever else was going on gets you.


But I believe that's contradictory to TCTTS' point. What he was saying is that it wasn't Disney's hire that failed (if you want to claim this show is a fail). Rather it's Disney's monolithic corporate way of filmmaking that failed and ruined what a talented filmmaker could have made.

They may have hired in part for optics (a gay female filmmaker) but the hire was fine. Its Disney's continued corporate involvement after the hire that's the problem.



You mean to put a chick in it and make her lame and gay?

My theory is that Kathlee Kennedy hates George Lucas with the passion of a thousand suns, and this her equivalent of Cartman making Scott tenorman eat his parents

She was hand-picked by Lucas, they've been the best of friends for 40+ years now, and made multiple movies together prior to Disney buying Lucasfilm, but sure, go with this insanity if it makes you feel better.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:12p, 6/19/24
Well, it was either an optics hire or they're even dumber than we thought. If you can go after whomever you want and you say "hey, Russian Dolls was pretty good, I bet that lady could make a badass Star Wars series", you might just be Kathleen Kennedy.
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DrEvazanPhD
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:13p, 6/19/24
TCTTS said:
DrEvazanPhD said:
FL_Ag1998 said:
Cliff.Booth said:
No one in any other industry could, with all of the funding and resources one could ask for, fail this spectacularly and not fall on their sword and go away. This is what hiring for optics and whatever else was going on gets you.


But I believe that's contradictory to TCTTS' point. What he was saying is that it wasn't Disney's hire that failed (if you want to claim this show is a fail). Rather it's Disney's monolithic corporate way of filmmaking that failed and ruined what a talented filmmaker could have made.

They may have hired in part for optics (a gay female filmmaker) but the hire was fine. Its Disney's continued corporate involvement after the hire that's the problem.



You mean to put a chick in it and make her lame and gay?

My theory is that Kathlee Kennedy hates George Lucas with the passion of a thousand suns, and this her equivalent of Cartman making Scott tenorman eat his parents

She was hand-picked by Lucas, they've been the best of friends for 40+ years now, and have made multiple movies together, but sure, go with this insanity if it makes you feel better.


She's playing the long game! Hell hath no fury…
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:16p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
That's a convenient way to let someone off the hook. This is a sloppy, cheap looking mess. If you don't have the seriousness and gravitas to stand up to the powers that be to make a quality product, then walk away. Directors walk away from projects when they feel they're not being allowed to make what they want to make. I'm guessing she was given a lot of latitude and this is what she came up with.


Hey, I'm not letting her completely off the hook. My post does give that impression, so I see where you got that. Hedlund does need to claim at least partial ownership of this show falling flat in multiple areas. I'm simply clarifying what TC was saying and stating that I'm starting to agree with it, based on Disney's Star Wars track record.

Now I'm really interested in checking out Russian Doll, simply to see what TC is talking about with her last show vs this one.
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redline248
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In reply to jokershady • 9:16p, 6/19/24
AG
jokershady said:
Since 2012????? They were still putting out mega hits then and after…..

I'd say post Endgame at the earliest…..
I'm talking specifically Star Wars, since they acquired Star Wars.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:18p, 6/19/24
AG
You can't know until you know. Headlund is ALSO a proven Star Wars super-fan who would run circles around most people in this thread in terms of Star Wars knowledge. Considering her objective talent as well, all signs pointed to her knocking this out of the park. So the only thing that makes sense to me for the stinker we've gotten so far is the Lucasfilm development process. Yes, Headlund obviously has a big part in that for sure, but there's also 100% something else systematic at play, that has nothing to do with "woke" and everything to do with the creative development process.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:22p, 6/19/24
I know you're on one of your devil's advocate kicks right now, but this series looks ------ badly directed. I'm sure you're right that she's pressured on certain things and what not, but the writing/acting/story we've seen on the screen, with a massive budget behind it, is hilariously bad. And it's on her. There's a 100 dudes in LA who know more about SW than her and could have at a minimum made a show fans enjoy and want to see more of. You're one of them.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:24p, 6/19/24
AG
In no way am I letting her off the hook. I'm simply saying she wasn't just some random optics hire who didn't earn the opportunity.
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Mathguy64
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9:26p, 6/19/24
AG
It's not badly directed. It's badly written in areas and the director or whoever is standing over their shoulder (Kennedy?) didn't have the wherewithal to say "yeah no this scene won't work. Fix it or cut it"

That bug on the tree scene should never have made the screen as filmed. Either rewrite it to get something out of it or cut it.
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redline248
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9:31p, 6/19/24
AG
Am I wrong that Headlund went to Disney with the idea, rather than Disney seeking her out?
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:31p, 6/19/24
Fair enough, but she hasn't made anything that indicated she'd be right for a SW series, aaaaaaaaand turns out, she ain't. Maybe eventually Disney will become interested in the bottom line again.
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redline248
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:32p, 6/19/24
AG
No to mention the random pauses to talk seem so unnatural. Talk while walking
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:33p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
I know you're on one of your devil's advocate kicks right now, but this series looks ------ badly directed. I'm sure you're right that she's pressured on certain things and what not, but the writing/acting/story we've seen on the screen, with a massive budget behind it, is hilariously bad. And it's on her. There's a 100 dudes in LA who know more about SW than her and could have at a minimum made a show fans enjoy and want to see more of. You're one of them.


Bottom line for me is that I'd love to read a tell-all behind the scenes article/book about the Disney Star Wars/Marvel filmmaking worlds. A fly on the wall view of how these two properties (huge in their own right prior to being taken over by the biggest entity in entertainment) became what they are now....both taken over by Disney, but Marvel putting together the greatest connected film universe in history that the fans overwhelmingly loved, meanwhile Star Wars more or less consistently sputtering (at least in the fan's eyes) with almost everything they put out.
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TCTTS
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In reply to redline248 • 9:34p, 6/19/24
AG
This is the impression I've been under, yes. After Russian Doll, Headlund basically had the heat and the clout to get a meeting, pitched this show, and Lucasfilm then obviously said let's do it.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:39p, 6/19/24
Imagine being the dude who was in the room who knew she'd **** it up but also knew there's no way you could be open about that fear.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:40p, 6/19/24
AG
Mathguy64 said:
It's not badly directed. It's badly written in areas and the director or whoever is standing over their shoulder (Kennedy?) didn't have the wherewithal to say "yeah no this scene won't work. Fix it or cut it"

That bug on the tree scene should never have made the screen as filmed. Either rewrite it to get something out of it or cut it.


Yeah, I don't understand the point of the bugs. We have so many compelling things about the plot that we desperately need to explore more, but instead we waste time showing giant pillbugs? THE BUGS WEREN'T THE DANGER IN THIS EPISODE THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THREATENED BY! THE TENSION WAS SUPPOSED TO COME FROM THE CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE JEDIS MEETING KALNACCA MEETING MAE AND POSSIBLY MEETING QIMIR! If that had been shown onscreen and then drop in the Sith in diguise, good lord, that would be some compelling tv!
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Mathguy64
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 9:44p, 6/19/24
AG
FL_Ag1998 said:
Mathguy64 said:
It's not badly directed. It's badly written in areas and the director or whoever is standing over their shoulder (Kennedy?) didn't have the wherewithal to say "yeah no this scene won't work. Fix it or cut it"

That bug on the tree scene should never have made the screen as filmed. Either rewrite it to get something out of it or cut it.


Yeah, I don't understand the point of the bugs. We have so many compelling things about the plot that we desperately need to explore more, but instead we waste time showing giant pillbugs? THE BUGS WEREN'T THE DANGER IN THIS EPISODE THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THREATENED BY! THE TENSION WAS SUPPOSED TO COME FROM THE CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE JEDIS MEETING KALNACCA MEETING MAE AND POSSIBLY MEETING QIMIR! If that had been shown onscreen and then drop in the Sith in diguise, good lord, that would be some compelling tv!


But they could have been. They could have swarmed from all over and everyone draws sabers and you go all melee. Maybe someone gets bit and they have to find Kelnacca to cure them so that Kelnacca's death costs a Jedi. Or as TC said, Kelnacca comes in to save them. You can even lose a red shirt Jedi. Heck, you can use it for Sol to question his decisions or have Yord openly defy Sol even more than he's trying to.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:46p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
Imagine being the dude who was in the room who knew she'd **** it up but also knew there's no way you could be open about that fear.


No offense but if you're that prescient about how movies/shows will turn out based on the very first instant you're introduced to the basic plot outline then please move to Hollywood and grace us with your golden touch. Honestly. I would love to know for certain that every Star Wars or Marvel or Disney move will absolutely be a timeless classic because the new head of the studio had a 1.000% batting average sniffing out a future stinker.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:47p, 6/19/24
Literally a group of pharmacists and IT guys and financial advisors in here coming up with screenwriting better than a supposed Hollywood rising star.
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FL_Ag1998
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:47p, 6/19/24
AG
Mathguy64 said:
FL_Ag1998 said:
Mathguy64 said:
It's not badly directed. It's badly written in areas and the director or whoever is standing over their shoulder (Kennedy?) didn't have the wherewithal to say "yeah no this scene won't work. Fix it or cut it"

That bug on the tree scene should never have made the screen as filmed. Either rewrite it to get something out of it or cut it.


Yeah, I don't understand the point of the bugs. We have so many compelling things about the plot that we desperately need to explore more, but instead we waste time showing giant pillbugs? THE BUGS WEREN'T THE DANGER IN THIS EPISODE THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THREATENED BY! THE TENSION WAS SUPPOSED TO COME FROM THE CONFRONTATION BETWEEN THE JEDIS MEETING KALNACCA MEETING MAE AND POSSIBLY MEETING QIMIR! If that had been shown onscreen and then drop in the Sith in diguise, good lord, that would be some compelling tv!


But they could have been. They could have swarmed from all over and everyone draws sabers and you go all melee. Maybe someone gets bit and they have to find Kelnacca to cure them so that Kelnacca's death costs a Jedi. Or as TC said, Kelnacca comes in to save them. You can even lose a red shirt Jedi. Heck, you can use it for Sol to question his decisions or have Yord openly defy Sol even more than he's trying to.


True. I do like TC's idea. But it either needs to be something gung-ho like that or no bugs at all.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:49p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
Literally a group of pharmacists and IT guys and financial advisors in here coming up with screenwriting better than a supposed Hollywood rising star.


Math teacher thank you very much.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to FL_Ag1998 • 9:50p, 6/19/24
I didn't say *I* was the dude in that room, but there HAD to have been some equivalent of TC listening to it being pitched and being like **** this is going to lose money and get canceled.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 9:51p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
Imagine being the dude who was in the room who knew she'd **** it up but also knew there's no way you could be open about that fear.

Yeah, you're being super weird about this now, and we're just going to have a disagree. Headlund was and is talented, period. That, and it's ALWAYS a crap shoot with anyone in her position, man or woman, when it comes to making the jump to something like this. Just like it was when Colin Trevorrow made the jump from directing a single indie movie to heading up Jurassic World. Just like it was when Bryce Dallas Howard, who was just as green (professionally) to the franchise as Headlund was, helmed The Mandalorian. You can never completely tell, it's all an act of faith, and the idea of some all-knowing psychic "dude" who kept his mouth shut at Lucasfilm is pure fantasy.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:57p, 6/19/24
If you had been sitting there and heard her pitch what this series has become, would you have OKed it? Really?
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Mathguy64
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10:00p, 6/19/24
AG
The basic story is there. A murder mystery with Jedi getting picked off. Jedi from an era that is new to everyone except those who played an old video game. Up until now infallible Jedi. We see them not only getting picked off but now we find they may have covered up something.

Just tighten up the writing a bit.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 10:01p, 6/19/24
AG
It depends on what she pitched.

As I said earlier today, the show that was initially announced sounded way cooler than what we've seen so far, and could have been far more compelling, could have taken more risks, etc.

Which speaks to my theory that Lucasfilm could have very well snuffed the life out of this thing since, during the development process.
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jokershady
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 10:01p, 6/19/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
Literally a group of pharmacists and IT guys and financial advisors in here coming up with screenwriting better than a supposed Hollywood rising star.
Im a trainer and a realtor….so I ain't even as smrt as the folks you mentioned
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concac
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10:02p, 6/19/24
AG
Kelnacca's death looked like he died from a heat attack in the middle of jerking off.
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jokershady
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In reply to TCTTS • 10:02p, 6/19/24
AG
TCTTS said:
It depends on what she pitched.

As I said earlier today, the show that was initially announced sounded way cooler than what we've seen so far, and could have been far more compelling, could have taken more risks, etc.

Which speaks to my theory that Lucasfilm could have very well snuffed the life out of this thing since, during the development process.
Wasnt this show finished a ways back? Where there re-shoots for this show and test screenings?

I have no idea genuinely curious….
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