*** Masters of the Air ***

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Thomas Little
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I really loved the show even though episodes 7 and 8 were not good. They could have dropped several of the ancillary storylines and shown more flying.

I listened to some of the Master of the Air podcast and they said that the show went way over budget and they were forced to drop 1 episode towards the end, so they combined episodes making it disjointed. Makes sense.

The last episode finished really strong.
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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Agreed with most everyone. Episodes 7 and 8 almost seem like they were from a different series, and not surprised, they came from the same director. The subaltern storyline should have been dropped completely. And the Tuskegee guys should have gotten their own series or been given more story spread throughout this one. Being such a blip is a disservice to their legacy. I'm sure I'll catch flack for it (and I am not one to bring this type of **** up) , but i wonder if the black female director of those two, Dee Rees, wanted to make sure she showcased black and female characters, and how much that influenced the the story. She had a story (she co-wrote 8) she wanted to tell, and it wasn't about the 100th. This is the big issue with not having a singular vision throughout a series like this. It's worked well plenty of times sure, but times like this, you clearly have someone that wanted to go their own way, and the series as a whole suffered bc of that.

It was also very apparent they cut corners on the budget. Why it ballooned the way they said it did, I'm sure there are multiple reasons . Covid played a role im sure. HBO vs Apple? But between the casting choices (talking about all the Brits instead of casting Americans ), cutting an episode from the traditional 10, shorter episodes, some of the shoddy CGI(great in places, very obvious and bad in others), as well as just the over reliance of CGi rather than practical, it was pretty clear there were "money issues" (relatively speaking for a series of tv that cost hundreds of millions of dollars)

I'm glad it finished as strong as it did. The last episode was fantastic. It just left me wanting so much more and think how much of a missed opportunity they had. those 2 eps are black eyes to a series that had the potential for being just a hair behind BoB in its totality.
Thomas Little
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Thomas Little said:

I listened to some of the Master of the Air podcast and they said that the show went way over budget and they were forced to drop 1 episode towards the end, so they combined episodes making it disjointed. Makes sense.


Just to add to this, the podcast is done by two British guys that say repeatedly that they have nothing to do with the show and it's not an official podcast. They're just fans.
wangus12
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Are you talking about We Have Ways Of Making you Talk?

The official podcast through the National WWII museum is hosted by on of the producers, Kirk Saduski and Donald Miller who wrote the book
JABQ04
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No there's another MoTA podcast by two Brit's.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/masters-of-the-air-podcast/id1727190978?i=1000643271030
PatAg
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:

Agreed with most everyone. Episodes 7 and 8 almost seem like they were from a different series, and not surprised, they came from the same director. The subaltern storyline should have been dropped completely. And the Tuskegee guys should have gotten their own series or been given more story spread throughout this one. Being such a blip is a disservice to their legacy. I'm sure I'll catch flack for it (and I am not one to bring this type of **** up) , but i wonder if the black female director of those two, Dee Rees, wanted to make sure she showcased black and female characters, and how much that influenced the the story. She had a story (she co-wrote 8) she wanted to tell, and it wasn't about the 100th. This is the big issue with not having a singular vision throughout a series like this. It's worked well plenty of times sure, but times like this, you clearly have someone that wanted to go their own way, and the series as a whole suffered bc of that.

It was also very apparent they cut corners on the budget. Why it ballooned the way they said it did, I'm sure there are multiple reasons . Covid played a role im sure. HBO vs Apple? But between the casting choices (talking about all the Brits instead of casting Americans ), cutting an episode from the traditional 10, shorter episodes, some of the shoddy CGI(great in places, very obvious and bad in others), as well as just the over reliance of CGi rather than practical, it was pretty clear there were "money issues" (relatively speaking for a series of tv that cost hundreds of millions of dollars)

I'm glad it finished as strong as it did. The last episode was fantastic. It just left me wanting so much more and think how much of a missed opportunity they had. those 2 eps are black eyes to a series that had the potential for being just a hair behind BoB in its totality.
Might want to take a look at the Band of Brothers cast again, lot of Brits there too.
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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PatAg said:

HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:

Agreed with most everyone. Episodes 7 and 8 almost seem like they were from a different series, and not surprised, they came from the same director. The subaltern storyline should have been dropped completely. And the Tuskegee guys should have gotten their own series or been given more story spread throughout this one. Being such a blip is a disservice to their legacy. I'm sure I'll catch flack for it (and I am not one to bring this type of **** up) , but i wonder if the black female director of those two, Dee Rees, wanted to make sure she showcased black and female characters, and how much that influenced the the story. She had a story (she co-wrote 8) she wanted to tell, and it wasn't about the 100th. This is the big issue with not having a singular vision throughout a series like this. It's worked well plenty of times sure, but times like this, you clearly have someone that wanted to go their own way, and the series as a whole suffered bc of that.

It was also very apparent they cut corners on the budget. Why it ballooned the way they said it did, I'm sure there are multiple reasons . Covid played a role im sure. HBO vs Apple? But between the casting choices (talking about all the Brits instead of casting Americans ), cutting an episode from the traditional 10, shorter episodes, some of the shoddy CGI(great in places, very obvious and bad in others), as well as just the over reliance of CGi rather than practical, it was pretty clear there were "money issues" (relatively speaking for a series of tv that cost hundreds of millions of dollars)

I'm glad it finished as strong as it did. The last episode was fantastic. It just left me wanting so much more and think how much of a missed opportunity they had. those 2 eps are black eyes to a series that had the potential for being just a hair behind BoB in its totality.
Might want to take a look at the Band of Brothers cast again, lot of Brits there too.


You're right there were, but there were mostly Americans cast in the prominent main roles in BoB. Yes, there were a couple exceptions, Winters, Liebgott, and Martin (off the top of my head) were played by Brits. The rest of the main cast were Americans. Brits played a bunch of secondary and background guys for sure though. Brits made up the vast majority of this MotA cast is my point. Cleven and Rosie and Spielbergs kid, are basically the only exceptions.

Why that bothered me? I think we discussed it earlier in the thread, in the first couple of episodes, it felt like every crew member was from the Deep South or the Bronx. It was annoying to me. There was a hodgepodge of dudes from every corner of the US flying in thr UK in WW2. Yet I Hardly heard just a regular American accent. It was like Army Air Corps only recruited pilots and crew from SEC country.( Although to be far, I noticed it less as the series went on). But Biddick being played as a guy from Jersey and not from Wisconsin(like the real Biddick) was the obvious one. it's been mentioned that Brit actors find doing southern or NY type accents far easier than other regional American accents bc of how they normally formulate their words in their respective British dialects. So it makes sense why I only heard those accents, but still no less annoying to me. Which then leads me to the budget piece. You film in the UK, you save some money by hiring a bunch of actors from the UK. Maybe Covid and travel restrictions/fears still played a part. I know it's a nitpick. It didn't ruin the series for me on its own. But taken with some of the other issues I had, it all goes to why the series as a whole missed the mark for me.
aTmAg
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Winters was the primary protagonist in BoB.

Who gives a rats ass if they were British actors? For all I care they could be Russian, as long as they can pull off a perfect American accent.

This complaint is as ridiculous as those who demand Harvey Milk be played by a gay guy rather than Sean Penn. Should we also complain that Tom Hank didn't really have AIDS for his role in Philadelphia?

Get the best actor for the job.
aTmAg
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BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.
BTHOB
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aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
aTmAg
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BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?
BTHOB
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aTmAg said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?


I don't remember if they said a name.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?


I don't remember if they said a name.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if it was Egan that did it. Per the documentary, it did happen. Tie it directly to the series by letting one of your primary characters raise that flag.
AgLA06
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?


I don't remember if they said a name.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if it was Egan that did it. Per the documentary, it did happen. Tie it directly to the series by letting one of your primary characters raise that flag.


I don't get this mind set. Why the hell does it matter?!?
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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AgLA06 said:

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?


I don't remember if they said a name.
Ultimately it doesn't matter if it was Egan that did it. Per the documentary, it did happen. Tie it directly to the series by letting one of your primary characters raise that flag.


I don't get this mind set. Why the hell does it matter?!?
I stated it doesn't matter.
ArmyAg2002
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I'm on the episode with the Tuskegee airmen. The story line feels forced. Does it improve?
wangus12
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aTmAg said:

BTHOB said:

aTmAg said:

BTW, for those who read the books...

Was the POW liberation scene accurate? Did P-51s really shoot at the guard towers? Did Egan really raise the American flag?

That seemed a little too Hollywood for me. Something Spielberg would add.


In the documentary (also on Apple+), they interview actual witnesses who describe similar events (i.e. liberation and tearing down the Nazi flag and raising an American flag). The documentary was well worth the watch.
I'll watch. I just haven't had time yet.

Was it Egan that did it?


Probably not. It happened and they took artistic liberty and made it Egan. Help it connect to the audience better
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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ArmyAg2002 said:

I'm on the episode with the Tuskegee airmen. The story line feels forced. Does it improve?
It does improve, but that episode is one of the 2 worst of the series. The final episode is a great finish.

Yes, the TA were forced into this series, but overall it wasn't a bunch of made-up "history" where only the TA could save the day or some such farce. Even with the forcing, I felt like they did a decent job of weaving them in to the main storyline once the Tuskegee reached the same POW camp as the bomber crewmen.
TXTransplant
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Haven't watched the last two episodes, yet, but I am reading the book.

I'm enjoying it very much - it is very detailed in names and military details, but not too much for me to keep straight. It also offers a lot of anecdotal stories outside of the bomber groups. There is info about how the bases were built (a massive undertaking), quotes from German pilots, and an absolutely horrifying story about the aftermath of the bombing of Hamburg.

I'm barely 40% of the way through and have just gotten to D-Day. Cleven and Eagan have only been mentioned by name a couple of times. The book hasn't even talked about them being shot down (even though it has described the raids in which this occurred). Most of the stories I've read so far involve people not featured in the show.

If anyone is on the fence about reading it, I would recommend. It's a very different experience than watching the show.
ArmyAg2002
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Just finished. I'm on an exercise with my unit. We cant fly today because of weather, some of thenother pilots and I watched the last episode together. At Eagan's liberation everyone's allergies started acting up.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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ArmyAg2002 said:

Just finished. I'm on an exercise with my unit. We cant fly today because of weather, some of thenother pilots and I watched the last episode together. At Eagan's liberation everyone's allergies started acting up.
That was an emotional moment for me as well.
aTmAg
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What about the P-51s shooting at the towers at the POW camp during liberation?

That is almost becoming a Spielberg calling card. Empire of the Sun, Saving Private Ryan, and now this.
rynning
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aTmAg said:

What about the P-51s shooting at the towers at the POW camp during liberation?

That is almost becoming a Spielberg calling card. Empire of the Sun, Saving Private Ryan, and now this.
I didn't mind that so much, but the speed at which they went from P-51s shooting the towers to guards shooting the POWs to raising the flag felt very jarring to the point I thought I misunderstood what was happening.

Also thought it unrealistic the POWs were just standing around cheering while bullets were flying down from the P-51s. Wasn't it dramatic enough without that?

While I'm glad I watched the whole thing, the last episode felt like they were checking the boxes as fast as possible after the opening scene.
wangus12
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It talks about them being shot down in the very first chapter
Fuzzy Dunlop
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I listened to both "Masters of the Air" and Harry Crosby's memoir, "A Wing and a Prayer" in the past month or so. The series pulls most stuff from Crosby's book. The POW experience is in "Masters of the Air".

The last episode was good but went a little too Hollywood with the P-51s and I'm not sure anything like that happened. Why would a P-51 straffe a POW camp full of allies?

Overall, the series was good, not great.
Double Talkin' Jive...
TXTransplant
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It must have been a very brief mention because I don't remember that. I do remember reading about them both a little further in, but what I recall is that basically they were just being introduced as "characters". There wasn't much detail.

Point being, I've learned a whole lot more about other people and specifics of their missions at this point than I have Clevens and Egan. Not a complaint at all, just sharing that the book is about much more than those two.
ArmyAg2002
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Mustangs were supporting the ground force moving on the camp. By firing on the towers it drew the attention of the Germans away from the ground force as they began to cross the cleared area outside the camp.
I agree that if anyone near me was being strayed I would have been looking for cover, especially after the prisoner column had been strayed on the night March.

Crosby's book is great and really fills out the series.
aTmAg
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ArmyAg2002 said:

Mustangs were supporting the ground force moving on the camp. By firing on the towers it drew the attention of the Germans away from the ground force as they began to cross the cleared area outside the camp.
I agree that if anyone near me was being strayed I would have been looking for cover, especially after the prisoner column had been strayed on the night March.

Crosby's book is great and really fills out the series.
So that really happened? The way it was portrayed in the show, it was a really stupid action.

The ground force was TANK division. Dudes in a machine gun tower aren't going to do a damn thing against that. And the P-51s were spraying everything. In actuality that would have killed more POWs than Germans.



Spielberg has this habit of making P-51s show up right at the "perfect" time. He wants to make the climax exciting, but it's stupid. Like in SPR. So a P-51 shows up JUST in time to blow up that tank that was coming at Tom Hanks? Just at the same time as a bunch of Shermans arrive. But since P-51s go 300MPH, that means the P-51s had to leave way later than the tanks they were supporting. So they just sat on the tarmac for a few hours just to make the timing more exciting. Why wouldn't the P-51s been strafing the crap out of the Germans for an hour prior to the Shermans showing up? They just happen to get there simultaneously?

This episode had the same problem. That's not to say the episode was bad. It was pretty damned good. Way better than #8. And I think this show is a bit below BoB and well above the Pacific.
aTmAg
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Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.
Sapper Redux
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These shows don't tend to show the complexities of American society and culture before and during the war. There was a massive nonintervention movement led by conservatives in the United States. It was Hitler declaring war on us that guaranteed we even fought him in 1941.
aTmAg
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I think today, we could have Germany invade Poland and declare war on the US, then for about 5 minutes we would have "unity". Then half of the population would call the president Hitler, and say we were genociders.
wangus12
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That generation was obviously a bunch of badasses, but we did have to draft tons of men into service after the initial enlistment booms following Pearl Harbor. Now obviously that still means millions of men and women volunteered for service, but according to the WW2 museum, we drafted over 60% of them.
TXTransplant
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aTmAg said:

Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.


It's interesting you said that…there is a part in the Masters of the Air book that talks about how people were concerned that these young 18-20 year olds who fought in WWII wouldn't rise to the occasion. I forget exactly what it said, but basically, after the suffering of the Great Depression, there were a lot of young men without motivation or drive and with little awareness of the global situation. The first military stationed in England were really not liked and were judged harshly by the British for all these reasons.

But they really stepped up after Pearl Harbor and continued to rise to the occasion as the war progressed. The book talks about how many of them didn't even know the all the details about Hitler (at least initially). They fought for each other - it was very much a Band of Brothers, even in the sky.

Part of the reason I'm so interested in this period of history is because of the immense suffering - of both civilians and enlisted military. It really was horrific all over the world. Living in Europe at that time must have been a nightmare. And as a woman, I can't imagine having your beau or husband go off to fight only to never see him again.

What gets me about it is it was barely two generations ago. This is what my grandparents lived when they were my age and a little younger. It just amazes me that they were able to rebuild their lives at all, although, I know there was a lot of collateral damage (most of which is probably untold, even to this day).

In a lot of ways I feel individual families are still living with the repercussions of it all. This is very personal for me, but my maternal grandmother served in WWII in Europe. A few years ago, my dad told me she was engaged to a doctor who was killed. She wound up meeting and marrying my grandfather (also serving). She had my mother, but they had an awful marriage. Despite divorcing when my mother was young, the animosity never dissipated. My mother had a terrible relationship with her mother, and that carried on to me (and I'm still living it). I'm sure there are tens of millions of stories like this.

G Martin 87
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aTmAg said:

Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.
With BoB, Pacific, and especially MotA, I will admit to having strong emotions. The opening credits and the interviews in BoB always hit me hard. I always feel intense sadness and gratitude for the sacrifices paid by both the survivors and the lost. But never depression. If our country ever faces an existential threat in the future, I am confident that we will rise to meet it again.
Southlake
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An interesting side note:

After my Air Force pilot training, before reporting to my assignment, I went to Survival School that included Resistance Training (RT) Where after a week in the sticks doing survival stuff and starving, we had a 12 hour day of RT academics - how to survive and act as a POW. That night, we were trucked out in the country and made to march down a road where we were "violently" captured and force marched to POW camp.

After 3 days in a brutal camp that included solitary confinement and extreme interrogation treatments, we were marched 5 miles to a group camp modeled after the Stalag camps from WW2.

We never knew when we'd be released. One afternoon, when we were soaking wet and freezing and hadn't slept in10 nights, they marched us to a courtyard and lined us up infront of guards with machine guns and dogs.

The "commandant", then informed us that we had done an excellent job and told us to, "Turn and salute your flag"

Unbeknownst to us, an American flag had been raised behind us with a huge spotlight shining on us.

Then they played the National Anthem.

160 Airmen with tears streaming. I was one.

The flag raising scene bought me back to that memory. Kinda tearing up as I type this.
 
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