Small divert but the Wehrmacht was very much implicit in the Holocaust, especially on the Eastern Front, but that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down.

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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I think it's predictable what the response will be from certain sectors of our population.

Those people can stick it up their ass for all I care.

Spoiler alert - the Allied bombing campaigns killed lots of people. We did not possess "smart" bombs so what we were actually doing was dropping high explosives encased in iron on enemy populations. It was indiscriminate. It was ugly, but it was necessary.

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we literally analyzed the best way to set fire to massive numbers of civilian buildings in Tokyo, and General Doolittle put our pilots more at risk to ensure more devastation on the Japanese by lower level fire bombing.

snowflakes today have no idea of the amount of devastation the USA inflicted on France, Germany, Italy and Japan from 1942-45. not even mentioning two nuclear bomb explosions.

I mean, the increasingly severe restrictions and laws targeting Jews went on for years in Germany. Then all the Jews get shipped off to camps. It's not like any of that was a secret. People moved into homes that were vacated by imprisoned Jews. The average German didn't actively participate in the Holocaust but the claims of ignorance ring pretty hollow to me.

I'm reading the book "The German War" by Nicholas Stargardt right now, which uses letters, diaries and official documents to tell the story of how the war impacted regular Germans.

He clearly demonstrates that most Germans knew what was happening to the Jewish people, even if they didn't know specific details. They received news in letters and first-hand accounts from soldiers on leave, etc.

Most supported it because they were afraid that if Germany lost the war, the tables would be turned and they would be the ones rounded up.

ETA ... even though it was against the law, many Germans listened to BBC or other foreign broadcasts which often had news of Nazi atrocities.

Here's a decent summary of the restrictions placed on Jews pre-war. It's hard to plausibly feign ignorance when this is going on for years.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/anti-jewish-legislation-in-prewar-germany

I know this is furthering a derail, but i think is kind of important to make clear.

The reality is that civilized people can rationalize just about anything. Whether fear, pride, indifference, hatred, willful ignorance, or most usually some combination of them all, people learn to live in the world that surrounds them. I don't think most Germans supported rounding up Jews, stealing their hair and teeth, gassing them and then burning their bodies. But they were generally supportive of everything that led up to that, and I'm sure plenty of German civilians just let themselves think the Jews were off at benign work camps or deported or someone else's problem.

aTmAg said:

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AgLA06 said:

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He shows authority and pushes Major Eagen back down in his seat and says the loud mouth Britt is his. Keoghan politely asks him to let him do it. He'd owe the Major one.

Just like he does the same when Eagen gets up to sing and ruin the moment in the O Club after the successful Uboat pen mission.

Or in episode one when he calmly lands in a bad crosswind that scares his crew. And then calls off a following Fort.

Or when he calmy suggested that the group fall back to protect Keoghan's fort even though everyone knows that makes them all vulnerable and no one wants to.

They all default to him because they respect him and his quiet confidence. That's the role he's playing.

I'd suggest lowering the shaded glasses and re-watch the episodes again. He leads in just about every episode.

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And you are conflating the real Gale Cleven's words and actions with Austin Butler's delivery.

I'm not saying that the real Gale Cleven wasn't a leader. Obviously he was. This character is based off of him, and so the things he says and does is indeed "leadery". However, Austin Butler delivers his lines in a monotone quiet voice that is not "quiet confidence" but "just plain bad".

It would be like if Patton was played by Michael Cera instead of George C. Scott. He could say the exact same lines as George C. Scott and ride in the front of armies on top of tanks like the real Patton, but it would still be pathetically weak voice that takes the viewer out of the moment.


Now if there is evidence of the real Gale Cleven being meek like Butler, then I'd take all of this back. But I doubt that exists (somebody would have said so by now). If it did exist, then I would expect a line in the show that addressed it. Like have another respected pilot say "he's quiet, but he'll keep you alive." or something like that.


I think what happened is pretty simple: that Hanks liked him as Elvis and hired him for this show. But they were justifiably concerned that he would act it as Elvis so they got him a vocal coach. And that Butler's way to refrain from Elvising this role is by talking quiet and slow. It makes sense that they would hire Butler, despite these issues. They figured Butler would be a star, but they could still hire him at a cheap price for this show because Elvis hadn't aired yet.

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Total aside, but this convo reminds me of when Hacksaw Ridge was coming out and people kept complaining about Andrew Garfield's accent. At the end of the film, it plays an interview with the real guy, and it sounds the exact same. Like, a spot on impression, lol.

Also, when There's Something About Mary came out, British reviewers were furious with the guy playing the British architect because they thought his accent sounded insanely fake…only for him to turn out to be British.

They sacrificed everything. Watch The Bloody Hundredth and get an in-depth look at the real stories of the brave Airmen that inspired Masters of the Air.

Premieres March 15. pic.twitter.com/N27zPKba6W

— Apple TV (@AppleTV) February 28, 2024

TXTransplant said:

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I've been reading the same things. I also read that the guards at the POW camp were members of the Luftwaffe, so it was "like guarding like", and the Germans at least had some understanding (maybe even some form of empathy) for their prisoners. And that they tended to give higher ranking officers more privileges.

What I find absolutely incredulous is that there were even POW camps. There is a part of me that wonders why they weren't all killed/executed at capture or after initial interrogation. I know the Germans weren't as brutal as the Japanese, but considering how they systematically executed millions of civilians (both in and outside of concentration camps), it's amazing to me that so many POWs survived.

I know the Geneva Convention protected POWs, but it's not like Hitler and his German loyalists were an ethical group of people.

There are so many stories to tell about this era of history, that I think I could probably do nothing but read and watch shows about this topic. It is almost unbelievable and too much for my brain to comprehend.

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The Luftwaffe had their own POW camps and held western allied fliers in them because there were numerous German flyers being held in Allied camps. Goering wanted to show respect and good treatment for the Allied flyers so he could hope for his pilots and airman to receive similarly good treatment. It was as simple as that.

Let's get this back on track please. Take the shenanigans to F16.

There's also a strongly-held tenet in Western militaries that it's the very dishonorable to abuse or kill men who have surrendered to you. Obviously it happens, because war is hell, but it's never been accepted or really tolerated. The European theater POWs had it tough but they were treated fairly for the most part. The pacific experience, where the Japanese did not share this tenet and considered surrender to be shameful and cowardly was a lot different.

ETA I don't consider the Russians to be a western military in this sense.

Looks like the admins (thankfully) cleaned up the off-topic posts.

This is a good story from a former Soviet POW on his treatment by Americans. I wonder if any of this may occur in upcoming episodes:



(Hope this doesn't count as a shenanigan)

I dunno how they're gunna finish this in 2 episodes especially since it looks like we're gunna be following the woman now too.

Those P-51s are bad mofos.

if anyone hasn't heard of it already a good companion piece to this show is a book titled "a higher call".

it's about the luftwaffe and the army air corps and how they operated in WWII. one of the scenes in this episode has the commandant of Stalag 3 speaking to the men about how it is in everyone best interest that they stay in a camp operated by the luftwaffe.

the book sheds some light on this subject and i never knew it but the luftwaffe operated somewhat independently of the Nazi party and as such they had a lot more honor and treated the prisoners much better than the Gestapo or SS would have treated prisoners. from what i recall the luftwaffe didn't require their members to be part of the party and its members acted in a way more similar to the americans and allies than your typical nazi. they were a lot less hardcore and way less cruel in their treatment.

the book goes into far greater detail and there are some amazing stories of honor amongst the German pilot ranks. Goering was a ****head to be sure but the american pilot POWs were in far better hands in this situation than the alternative.

also, what was the deal with crosby? did the producers take a bit of liberty with his story because as i read earlier, he apparently didn't have relations with the british lady and their relationship ended after their first meeting

Yeah I hope the Tuskegee stuff somehow weaves into the story properly. That it doesn't come off as a "look here! Black pilots did brave stuff too!" But at this point, I can't figure out how they can possibly do it properly. Especially since they were geographically far away.