*** Masters of the Air ***

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aTmAg
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In reply to jwoodmd • 6:17p, 1/29/24
AG
jwoodmd said:
aTmAg said:
OldArmy71 said:

Quote:
It was so effective that at the end of the war the Japanese would send hundreds of kamikazes against our ships, and not a single one would get through.

The proximity fuse was a great invention, but you are wrong about the effect of kamikazes.

At least 34 American ships were sunk during the war and hundreds damaged by suicide attacks.

Just at Okinawa, 5000 men were killed.
You have to remember, the US build 9000+ ships during the war. 34 ships is a rounding error.

Secondly, the VT fuse wasn't first used until late in the war, and not widely available until near the end. Where it was deployed, it was extremely effective. For example, in May of 1945, 2 destroyers, that were armed with VT fuses, were targeted by 150 Kamikazes off Okinawa, but not a single one got through.
Not to the crews of thousands of men killed and wounded.
Good lord people...

The point is that 34 ships is a TINY percentage of ships. And most of those (if not all) were not armed with VT fuses, that is the point.
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Stive
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In reply to aTmAg • 6:21p, 1/29/24
AG
aTmAg said:
OldArmy71 said:

Quote:
It was so effective that at the end of the war the Japanese would send hundreds of kamikazes against our ships, and not a single one would get through.

The proximity fuse was a great invention, but you are wrong about the effect of kamikazes.

At least 34 American ships were sunk during the war and hundreds damaged by suicide attacks.

Just at Okinawa, 5000 men were killed.
You have to remember, the US build 9000+ ships during the war. 34 ships is a rounding error.

Secondly, the VT fuse wasn't first used until late in the war, and not widely available until near the end. Where it was deployed, it was extremely effective. For example, in May of 1945, 2 destroyers, that were armed with VT fuses, were targeted by 150 Kamikazes off Okinawa, but not a single one got through.

Comparing the number of ships lost in one battle to kamikazes to the number of ships built in the entire war is a really dumb comparison and has no bearing on the discussion.

You claimed that kamikazes attacks were basically ineffective by the end of the war because of the weapon. If we use your logic of the 9,000 ships built then just say that kamikaze attacks were basically ineffective throughout the entire war because "the U.S. built 9,000 ships". If that's the case then the proximity fuse was basically ineffective as well since far more Japanese fighters were shot down by other methods than were killed by the proximity fuses. I mean…it's just a rounding error, right?

Back to the show….

I don't mind Austin Butler yet. Maybe it's because I haven't seen Elvis, but he seems like he's handling the roll in a chill way so far and doesn't stand out to me as bad or great.
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jwoodmd
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In reply to Stive • 6:30p, 1/29/24
Stive said:


I don't mind Austin Butler yet. Maybe it's because I haven't seen Elvis, but he seems like he's handling the roll in a chill way so far and doesn't stand out to me as bad or great.
I can't handle him very well because of his role as Tex in Once Upon A Time in Hollywood.
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aTmAg
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In reply to Stive • 6:33p, 1/29/24
AG
Stive said:
aTmAg said:
OldArmy71 said:

Quote:
It was so effective that at the end of the war the Japanese would send hundreds of kamikazes against our ships, and not a single one would get through.

The proximity fuse was a great invention, but you are wrong about the effect of kamikazes.

At least 34 American ships were sunk during the war and hundreds damaged by suicide attacks.

Just at Okinawa, 5000 men were killed.
You have to remember, the US build 9000+ ships during the war. 34 ships is a rounding error.

Secondly, the VT fuse wasn't first used until late in the war, and not widely available until near the end. Where it was deployed, it was extremely effective. For example, in May of 1945, 2 destroyers, that were armed with VT fuses, were targeted by 150 Kamikazes off Okinawa, but not a single one got through.

Comparing the number of ships lost in one battle to kamikazes to the number of ships built in the entire war is a really dumb comparison and has no bearing on the discussion.

You claimed that kamikazes attacks were basically ineffective by the end of the war because of the weapon. If we use your logic of the 9,000 ships built then just say that kamikaze attacks were basically ineffective throughout the entire war because "the U.S. built 9,000 ships". If that's the case then the proximity fuse was basically ineffective as well since far more Japanese fighters were shot down by other methods than were killed by the proximity fuses. I mean…it's just a rounding error, right?

Back to the show….

I don't mind Austin Butler yet. Maybe it's because I haven't seen Elvis, but he seems like he's handling the roll in a chill way so far and doesn't stand out to me as bad or great.
No, I said that Kamikaze attacks were ineffective when facing VT fuses. Which is true. Not every ship had them. Hell, the first time they were used on ground was during the battle of the bulge which was the end of the European war.
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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6:50p, 1/29/24
AG
I have WAY less of a problem with the casting of Austin Butler, one of the few Americans in the entire cast, compared to all the Brits cast and their overly fake "American accents". Jesus they must all think Americans come from the deep south or the Bronx.

Just looking at IMDB, Butler and Spielbergs kid, might be the only Americans cast to play American WW2 vets in a show about an American WW2 unit
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PatAg
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In reply to HummingbirdSaltalamacchia • 6:52p, 1/29/24
AG
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
I have WAY less of a problem with the casting of Austin Butler, one of the few Americans in the entire cast, compared to all the Brits cast and their overly fake "American accents". Jesus they must all think Americans come from the deep south or the Bronx.

Just looking at IMDB, Butler and Spielbergs kid, might be the only Americans cast to play American WW2 vets in a show about an American WW2 unit
What if the people they are portraying are from specific areas, and have specific accents?
Band of Brothers had its fair share of brits as well. Maybe theres just not a lot of good youngish American actors?
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Stive
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In reply to aTmAg • 6:59p, 1/29/24
AG
Quote:
It was so effective that at the end of the war the Japanese would send hundreds of kamikazes against our ships, and not a single one would get through.

Yeah…that's not what you said but then again this is you we're talking about.

You make the above statement, someone points out you're 100% wrong (Okinawa), and your reply is "well…we built a lot of ships so that's just a rounding error", not "those ships didn't have that weaponry yet, but the ones that did were highly effective."

Ahh, another thread that got aTmAg'd….
There's a whole lot of stupid that college can't fix. -My Grandfather
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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In reply to PatAg • 7:28p, 1/29/24
AG
PatAg said:
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
I have WAY less of a problem with the casting of Austin Butler, one of the few Americans in the entire cast, compared to all the Brits cast and their overly fake "American accents". Jesus they must all think Americans come from the deep south or the Bronx.

Just looking at IMDB, Butler and Spielbergs kid, might be the only Americans cast to play American WW2 vets in a show about an American WW2 unit
What if the people they are portraying are from specific areas, and have specific accents?
Band of Brothers had its fair share of brits as well. Maybe theres just not a lot of good youngish American actors?


If that were the case, I'd be less annoyed but I don't think it is. Yes, BoB had some Brit's, obviously Damian Lewis first and foremost. But the vast majority were Americans, especially in the main cast. Kirk Acevedo, Michael Cudlitz, Eion Bailey, Rob Livingston, Rick grimes, Neal McDonough, David schwimmer, Donnie wahlberg, Matthew settle…. And there are loads of young American actors they could have used. But with them filming in the UK my guess is they got cheap.


And could buy their attention to detail with the accents (like the specific planes being shot down detail mentioned earlier in the thread), but I'm skeptical considering Lt Biddick (Barry Keoghan) is supposed to be from Wisconsin and went to college at Cal Davis, but sounds like he's from Jersey. If you aren't going to be specific on a supposed main character, I do t buy it on the rest
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PatAg
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In reply to HummingbirdSaltalamacchia • 7:34p, 1/29/24
AG
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
PatAg said:
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
I have WAY less of a problem with the casting of Austin Butler, one of the few Americans in the entire cast, compared to all the Brits cast and their overly fake "American accents". Jesus they must all think Americans come from the deep south or the Bronx.

Just looking at IMDB, Butler and Spielbergs kid, might be the only Americans cast to play American WW2 vets in a show about an American WW2 unit
What if the people they are portraying are from specific areas, and have specific accents?
Band of Brothers had its fair share of brits as well. Maybe theres just not a lot of good youngish American actors?


If that were the case, I'd be less annoyed but I don't think it is. Yes, BoB had some Brit's, obviously Damian Lewis first and foremost. But the vast majority were Americans, especially in the main cast. Kirk Acevedo, Michael Cudlitz, Eion Bailey, Rob Livingston, Rick grimes, Neal McDonough, David schwimmer, Donnie wahlberg, Matthew settle…. And there are loads of young American actors they could have used. But with them filming in the UK my guess is they got cheap.


And could buy their attention to detail with the accents (like the specific planes being shot down detail mentioned earlier in the thread), but I'm skeptical considering Lt Biddick (Barry Keoghan) is supposed to be from Wisconsin and went to college at Cal Davis, but sounds like he's from Jersey. If you aren't going to be specific on a supposed main character, I do t buy it on the rest
Thats...bad then
Ive specifically not looked up anything about the real life characters because I want to avoid any spoilers of that nature as much as I can.
I'll get more into it after the series ends though I am sure.
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AJ02
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7:42p, 1/29/24
AG
Yeah, Barry's accent is the worst. I assumed somewhere from Jersey area. Had no idea Wisconsin. And I thought it was an awful Jersey accent. Isn't he Irish in real life?
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TresPuertas
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In reply to AJ02 • 7:50p, 1/29/24
AG
AJ02 said:
Yeah, Barry's accent is the worst. I assumed somewhere from Jersey area. Had no idea Wisconsin. And I thought it was an awful Jersey accent. Isn't he Irish in real life?


i guess this is what i was trying to get at when i mentioned i didn't like the casting. y'all said it better than i did.

it seems like they casted this series based on who's the hottest young actors out there instead of casting the best actors for their specific parts.

it's probably why this whole thing has a a real inauthentic feel to it.
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ChipFTAC01
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In reply to AJ02 • 7:51p, 1/29/24
AG
AJ02 said:
Yeah, Barry's accent is the worst. I assumed somewhere from Jersey area. Had no idea Wisconsin. And I thought it was an awful Jersey accent. Isn't he Irish in real life?


Yes. Irish
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aTmAg
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In reply to Stive • 3:48a, 1/30/24
AG
Stive said:
Quote:
It was so effective that at the end of the war the Japanese would send hundreds of kamikazes against our ships, and not a single one would get through.

Yeah…that's not what you said but then again this is you we're talking about.

You make the above statement, someone points out you're 100% wrong (Okinawa), and your reply is "well…we built a lot of ships so that's just a rounding error", not "those ships didn't have that weaponry yet, but the ones that did were highly effective."

Ahh, another thread that got aTmAg'd….
LOL.. My bad. You are right, I should have counted the ships that didn't have VT fuses when discussing the overwhelming success of the VT fuse.. What was I thinking?

This board sometimes...
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DG-Ag
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10:00a, 1/30/24
AG
As an aside...I'm listening to the book on Audible (haven't started watching yet) and in the early chapters they talk a lot about Curtis LeMay. They mention that the character in Dr. Strangelove, Col. Jack D. Ripper, was patterned loosely after LeMay. That piqued my interest so I watched Dr. Strangelove again last night. What a great movie that was (or at least to me). Numerous laugh-out-loud moments.

Apologize for the derail.
You're from down South,
And when you open your mouth,
You always seem to put your foot there.
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jeffk
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In reply to DG-Ag • 10:13a, 1/30/24
AG
I've heard good things about Malcolm Gladwell's Bomber Mafia book, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Dan Carlin had Gladwell on as a guest a year or two back to talk about LeMay and the book.
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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7:58p, 1/30/24
AG
I've watched the first two episodes and can understand everyone's complaints about the show. I'm skeptical but will continue to watch.

Listening to the book on Audible right now and I can't figure out why they used this source for the movie. I may figure it out later and I'm not going to spoil anything (not that I could spoil much anyway) but it doesn't appear that the book is in anyway written. In the same narrative style as "Band of Brothers" so I can see how it will be difficult to make as good a movie as BoB.
Double Talkin' Jive...
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Noblemen06
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In reply to jeffk • 8:46p, 1/30/24
AG
jeffk said:
I've heard good things about Malcolm Gladwell's Bomber Mafia book, but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Dan Carlin had Gladwell on as a guest a year or two back to talk about LeMay and the book.
The Bomber Mafia is outstanding and a fast read. Gladwell wrote it to be an audio book first and it delivers in spades via that medium. Nothing wrong with the print edition but everything you see quoted in the written form is the actual voice of the person quoted (from interviews or other media) in the audio book. Plus, Gladwell does the reading and has a very congenial, almost Paul Harvey-esque delivery which renders it a pleasant listen. It is truly immersive in ways other audio books are not. Highly recommend that route for The Bomber Mafia.
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Swarely
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In reply to AJ02 • 9:35p, 1/30/24
AJ02 said:
Yeah, Barry's accent is the worst. I assumed somewhere from Jersey area. Had no idea Wisconsin. And I thought it was an awful Jersey accent. Isn't he Irish in real life?


I could have sworn he mentioned that he's from NYC in the show.
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schmendeler
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In reply to Swarely • 9:42p, 1/30/24
AG
Same
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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In reply to schmendeler • 5:37a, 1/31/24
AG
Me too.
Double Talkin' Jive...
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jeffk
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In reply to Noblemen06 • 6:24a, 1/31/24
AG
Thanks for the review!
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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In reply to Swarely • 8:10a, 1/31/24
AG
Swarely said:
AJ02 said:
Yeah, Barry's accent is the worst. I assumed somewhere from Jersey area. Had no idea Wisconsin. And I thought it was an awful Jersey accent. Isn't he Irish in real life?


I could have sworn he mentioned that he's from NYC in the show.
If he did, then I missed that. Less aggregious then, but I dont think the real Curtis Biddick was from NY. All I've ever seen/read was born in Wisconsin, lived/schooled/worked in Cali. Again though, it confuses me that they would go to such lengths to make sure they were detailed on things like which plane was shot down, how they were shot down, where they were in the formation, etc, then swtich up a real person's heritage.
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Cliff.Booth
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8:16a, 1/31/24
Might have missed this being shared, but this history prof is doing an episode by episode look into the accuracy of particular parts. He's using multiple sources from those in the 100th who wrote about the events. Thankfully he's down to earth for a history prof.

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wangus12
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 8:20a, 1/31/24
AG
I tend to like his reviews on military history in film
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KCup17
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 12:52p, 1/31/24
AG
Haven't watched this video yet. But was listening to a podcast Orloff was on and he was saying that this production is extremely accurate. Not sure if this is corroborated by the video
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to KCup17 • 5:27p, 1/31/24
Yeah, at least in the first episode it seems that there was a lot of impressive attention to detail and the few inaccuracies aren't anything very consequential or grossly misleading.
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BassCowboy33
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In reply to PatAg • 5:49p, 1/31/24
PatAg said:
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
I have WAY less of a problem with the casting of Austin Butler, one of the few Americans in the entire cast, compared to all the Brits cast and their overly fake "American accents". Jesus they must all think Americans come from the deep south or the Bronx.

Just looking at IMDB, Butler and Spielbergs kid, might be the only Americans cast to play American WW2 vets in a show about an American WW2 unit
What if the people they are portraying are from specific areas, and have specific accents?
Band of Brothers had its fair share of brits as well. Maybe theres just not a lot of good youngish American actors?


Part of it is accents as well, and we've discussed it on this board, but the Southern accent has more in common with the British accent than it does the New England/New York accent. It's all about how and where people emigrated. That's why British people are always playing southerners. It's very easy for them to mimic the accent.
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SoTxAg
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In reply to Noblemen06 • 3:55p, 2/1/24
AG
Yes, Bomber Mafia was a good book.
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AggieOO
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9:33p, 2/1/24
Just finished ep3 and came to see what you morons were going to be complaining about, and there's nothing. You guys are slacking.
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wangus12
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In reply to AggieOO • 9:38p, 2/1/24
AG
Wife is mad at me and has the tv. I'm not gonna watch it on a smaller screen
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OldArmy71
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10:19p, 2/1/24
AG
Ep. 3 is very good.

I'm just not feeling Austin Butler at. all.
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Cliff.Booth
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11:41p, 2/1/24
I don't get the gripe with Butler so far. What is it exactly that y'all don't like about his performance?
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Teddy Perkins
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11:41p, 2/1/24
AG
I knew when they mentioned Schweinfurt this was going to be a rough one. The baby face scene was especially tough. Really enjoying this series.
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PatAg
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In reply to Cliff.Booth • 1:34a, 2/2/24
AG
Cliff.Booth said:
I don't get the gripe with Butler so far. What is it exactly that y'all don't like about his performance?
Think a lot of people decided before hand that they would have an issue with it, because "he is Elvis".
He's been fine, imo
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Ghost of Bisbee
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2:37a, 2/2/24
AG
I thought episode 3 was really strong. Those dogfight scenes were really intense.

Anyone think keoghan survives? Doubtful
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