*** Masters of the Air ***

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OldArmy71
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In reply to TXTransplant • 9:47a, 3/18/24
AG
I absolutely agree.

The suffering caused by the Nazis, Italian fascists, and the Japanese is just beyond comprehension.

My own family had numerous participants in the war, but the one that sticks out is my uncle (an Aggie) who was captured on Corregidor and died in Japan in a POW camp.

His death haunted my mother all her life. His father died without ever knowing what became of his oldest son. His wife lived the rest of her life alone. His two boys grew up without a father, and only one of them remembered him at all.

So many American families have similar stories, and then you multiply that by all the countries sucked into the war.

I often feel the weight of all that suffering as I read or watch something about the history of the time.

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TXTransplant
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9:55a, 3/18/24
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore) that it even happened. The more history that happens in between, the less real it seems. I also think a lot of what happened during that time period is watered down. Outside of the Holocaust, I really did not know how horrific that time period was until I started reading more about it as an adult. I know there is plenty I will never read about, and there is only so much I can absorb at one time. But there is value in studying the unsanitized stories.

And while I don't believe suffering and grief is a competition, I am certainly grateful that I was born in the greatest period of peace the world has ever known. Nothing I have it will experience can compare to living through that.
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TXTransplant
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In reply to OldArmy71 • 10:02a, 3/18/24
Isn't it strange how we carry that weight for people we never met and experiences we will never know?

I've learned a little bit about generational trauma recently - there are experts in the field who believe you carry it in your DNA. That it literally transforms people and their descendants at a fundamental cellular level.

I kind of thought that was all ridiculous, but then I wonder about people like us who are somewhat haunted by the stories of our families and think maybe that's exactly what it is.
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arrow
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10:03a, 3/18/24
AG
It's easy to share the majority viewpoint of "kids these days" could never compare or could never accomplish what the Greatest Generation was able to do. I am in awe of what the WW2 generation was able to achieve. But it reminds me of a quote I read years ago that made me think introspectively about the problem...

A decorated WW2 veteran was being gushed over in an interview about the greatest generations etc. etc. His response: "Well heck, we didn't know we were capable of it either."
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AgLA06
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In reply to TXTransplant • 10:04a, 3/18/24
AG
TXTransplant said:
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore( that it even happened.
Time changes all.

The current generation is already starting to forget what it was like at 9/11 and the following months. My wife as a teacher says she's seen a change in the kids year by year in the last 20ish years. I guess it pretty similar to how my generation didn't relate to the Kennedy assassination or the first mission to the moon like our parents did because we didn't live it ourselves.

Sad, but life goes on. An honestly probably essential for mankind to be able to put things like the great depression, world wars, or other events of turmoil behind us and move on as a society.
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TXTransplant
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In reply to AgLA06 • 10:12a, 3/18/24
You are very right. As a kid, I was obsessed with Civil War history, and the same concept applies. How could the country have ever moved on otherwise?

For some reason, though, I just feel like WWII was such a monumental global event that it deserves to hold a bigger place in people's minds. But you can't force that.
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AgLA06
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In reply to TXTransplant • 10:26a, 3/18/24
AG
I've always been partial to both WW2 history and Vietnam War history. To be honest, I've never really been quite able to explain why.

I think to me it's because they were both fairly recent wars (lots of ability to get info, personally written books, etc) that also had big jumps in equipment, technology, and strategy. WW2 was a completely different war than WW1 even though much of it was fought on the same ground. Every service had to adapt and change quickly to new equipment, weapons, styles of fighting, and I could still imagine myself as part of the conflict. There's still something really sexy about flying and fighting in a P51 or P-38 for me even today.

Korea was a boring war to me that essentially had the same tactics, equipment, and even generals fighting it from WW2.

Vietnam was similar to WW2 in that air cav and fire bases made it a completely different style of war. Even the navy had to adapt how to fight / transport troops in the delta. And Vietnam was the first war where special forces because a known entity and high expanded / utilized. Whether MACV or LRRP or Green Berets or Seals. Which of course also appealed to a young boy growing up.

The first Gulf War was the the first interactive war we could all watch form our couches and get briefings from Norman Schwarzkopf as we watched the airforce take air superiority. I'll never forget spending the opening weekend of the war at my grandparent's house because they had the biggest TV and we stayed up all kinds of hours eating pizza and watching AA go up and things explode from air strikes. But it was over in the blink of an eye.

The rest of the desert wars I've followed, but hit way to close to home because I was of age to be drafted if it spiraled out of control and suddenly took on a new outlook for me. 9/11 was my senior year, but I was already accepted to go to A&M the next fall when we went back into Iraq.
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aTmAg
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In reply to wangus12 • 10:53a, 3/18/24
AG
wangus12 said:
That generation was obviously a bunch of badasses, but we did have to draft tons of men into service after the initial enlistment booms following Pearl Harbor. Now obviously that still means millions of men and women volunteered for service, but according to the WW2 museum, we drafted over 60% of them.
My understanding is that this is misleading. People who enlisted were allowed to chose their branch and roles. So early on, everybody was choosing the same ones. So they cut enlistment and enacted the draft so that they can put people where they were needed rather than just where everybody wanted to go. It wasn't that they were running short.
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TH36
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11:02a, 3/18/24
Not to go off topic but, what's the hate for The Pacific I've seen throughout this thread? Did any of you that don't like it read Sledges book or Leckies book? I read Sledges and thought the show lined up with what he wrote about fantastically.

This show was good in a lot of ways and great in a few but for me was still well below BoB or The Pacific. But with that being said, it's still up there in the all time great category for me simply because it was about a bunch of badasses that helped kick the Nazi's ass.
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AJ02
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In reply to TH36 • 11:14a, 3/18/24
AG
TH36 said:
Not to go off topic but, what's the hate for The Pacific I've seen throughout this thread? Did any of you that don't like it read Sledges book or Leckies book? I read Sledges and thought the show lined up with what he wrote about fantastically.

This show was good in a lot of ways and great in a few but for me was still well below BoB or The Pacific. But with that being said, it's still up there in the all time great category for me simply because it was about a bunch of badasses that helped kick the Nazi's ass.


Only speaking for myself...I didn't hate the Pacific. I just didn't really like it, especially as compared to BoB. Because I wasn't able to develop the same connection to the soldiers in the Pacific as I did BoB. And I realize that's the nature of the Pacific front with the island hopping and whatnot. It wasn't the same as one company pretty much remaining intact as they did a somewhat slow march forward on land. Pacific was very disjointed and chaotic. And again, a lot of that was likely intentional and fact-based just because of the nature of the Pacific campaign in WW2. But it just made it harder for me to get invested in them like I did BoB.
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OldArmy71
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In reply to TH36 • 11:25a, 3/18/24
AG

Quote:
what's the hate for The Pacific I've seen throughout this thread? Did any of you that don't like it read Sledges book or Leckies book? I read Sledges and thought the show lined up with what he wrote about fantastically.

I read both of Sledge's books as well as Leckie's. I had read Sledge's before The Pacific came out.

It took me several viewings to appreciate The Pacific. Just by the nature of combat in the Pacific Theater, the story was a sprawling one rather than the comparatively neat, compact tale as told in Band of Brothers. Americans are familiar with the countries of Europe and the war against Germany had some well-known elements such as D-Day and the Battle of the Bulge.

Americans know much less about the war against Japan except for Pearl Harbor (not covered in the series) and the atomic bombings (only hinted at).

The Pacific war was split between the Army (MacArthur) and the Navy/Marines (Nimitz) and thus was two major campaigns going on simultaneously but without much overlap. The series does not deal with the US Army/the Philippines at all.

The Pacific war involved the US attacking remote islands that no one had heard of. It's hard to follow a line of progress without dragging out a map of literally half the globe and watching us progress ever closer to Japan's home islands (none of that overall strategy was explained in the series).

Because The Pacific had to tell such a vast story by concentrating on three main characters who had essentially no connection, it was hard to keep track of the characters, though I do think they did a pretty good job of connecting Sid Phillips with Sledge. The scene in which Sledge meets Leckie in Leckie's "library tent" did not actually happen, though.

Also, as horrible as the European war was, the war against the Japanese was much worse because of their unwillingness to surrender, their suicide tactics, and their mistreatment of American prisoners. There was fanaticism among the Nazis for sure, but it was the exception rather than the rule that it was in the war against Japan.

All of that meant The Pacific has a harder edge to it, is harder to understand in terms of American objectives and success, and is more difficult to identify with its characters.

Repeat viewings have made me understand and appreciate it much more than I did when I first saw it. The final episode that centers on Sledge's return to civilian life is so well done that I tear up every time I see it.
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johncAG
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11:43a, 3/18/24
AG
I think a lot of people tend to look back at previous generations and blame them for their worldviews and actions. But people only can live in the world that is presented to them. I love the period from WW1 to WW2 and I will always have respect for all of the men and women across the world who basically kept us from total decimation and outright fascism. But when you think of generations that have come after "the Greatest Generation", there have been events and lack of events that kept us together. The 60s/70s changed a lot of perspectives as much change occured during that time. Think of all the corruption/conspiracies that spring up amongst our institutions over the last 80 years. Our generations have not been given that clear and obvious enemy that the Nazis/Imperial Japan presented. (Not saying there aren't bad actors since WW2 but there's a reason we continue to make WW2 movies).

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AgLA06
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In reply to OldArmy71 • 11:48a, 3/18/24
AG
I'm not sure that its at all.

Just about everyone knows of Guadalcanal and Okinawa and the fierce fighting that included both the US Army and Marine Corps.

I think it has more to do with many trying to forget the barbarism and extremism of fighting against the Japanese and a society many can't relate to. So many would rather just ignore it than relive fighting a foe with no value to life if not the victor and the extreme grotesqueness that came along with it.

Similar to how many don't really want to watch BOB episode 9, why we fight and experience the concentration camp scenes. I tend to skip it on rewatches.
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Southlake
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12:13p, 3/18/24
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.
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AgLA06
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In reply to Southlake • 12:15p, 3/18/24
AG
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.
2 western cultures that had similar expectations of decorum (SS aside) on the battlefield.

There wasn't many US service men afraid of being beheaded or eaten or being a science experiment in captivity by the Germans. I have no doubt the Stalags were no fun, but they were a cake walk in comparison to being a POW in the Pacific (assuming they took prisoners).
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Ag Since 83
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12:16p, 3/18/24
AG
I finished Crosby's book today and really liked it, and am glad they used it as a source for the show. I'll definitely read Miller's book at some point but not sure if it'll be right away.

I think it's pretty clear he had an affair, and while I think it was a good addition to episode 6 and 7, episode 8 should have been more about the apprehension to go home and face his wife and then that reunion, removing the subaltern in France and one last failed hotel rendezvous.
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AgLA06
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 12:20p, 3/18/24
AG
Ag Since 83 said:
I think it's pretty clear he had an affair, and while I think it was a good addition to episode 6 and 7, episode 8 should have been more about the apprehension to go home and face his wife and then that reunion, removing the subaltern in France and one last failed hotel rendezvous.
From other books and conversations with family members who served during that time, it wasn't unusual if you were an officer or higher NCO to have a girl abroad during WW2. Just like none of the boys wanted to think about what was going on back home with their girls while they were abroad. Same in Vietnam, especially for the Air Force guys that were stationed abroad and flying missions, but not in country. My grandmother still alludes to her father (upper NCO) having a girl in France until his wife joined him abroad for occupation service after the war.

It's just something that kinda gets swept under the rug because no one wants to thing about it.
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G Martin 87
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In reply to TXTransplant • 12:25p, 3/18/24
AG
TXTransplant said:
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore) that it even happened. The more history that happens in between, the less real it seems. I also think a lot of what happened during that time period is watered down. Outside of the Holocaust, I really did not know how horrific that time period was until I started reading more about it as an adult. I know there is plenty I will never read about, and there is only so much I can absorb at one time. But there is value in studying the unsanitized stories.

And while I don't believe suffering and grief is a competition, I am certainly grateful that I was born in the greatest period of peace the world has ever known. Nothing I have it will experience can compare to living through that.
I encourage every family to visit the National WWII Museum in New Orleans. Besides having an excellent physical collection of vehicles, aircraft, weapons, and memorabilia, the "digital dogtag" you pick up at the entrance allows you to follow a veteran's story through multiple exhibits. It's a wonderful way to hear and read about their experiences in the context of the big picture. There is also a Medal of Honor wall in one of the pavilions where you can highlight a picture of the soldier/sailor/airman and learn why they were awarded the MoH. Budget at least a full day, and that really only scratches the surface. (The food in the American Sector is very good, too. The adjoining Higgins Hotel is an excellent place to stay. Rosie's Bar on the roof is a must.)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/
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Ag Since 83
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In reply to AgLA06 • 12:31p, 3/18/24
AG
AgLA06 said:
Ag Since 83 said:
I think it's pretty clear he had an affair, and while I think it was a good addition to episode 6 and 7, episode 8 should have been more about the apprehension to go home and face his wife and then that reunion, removing the subaltern in France and one last failed hotel rendezvous.
From other books and conversations with family members who served during that time, it wasn't unusual if you were an officer or higher NCO to have a girl abroad during WW2. Just like none of the boys wanted to think about what was going on back home with their girls while they were abroad. Same in Vietnam, especially for the Air Force guys that were stationed abroad and flying missions, but not in country. My grandmother still alludes to her father (upper NCO) having a girl in France until his wife joined him abroad for occupation service after the war.

It's just something that kinda gets swept under the rug because no one wants to thing about it.
I don't think it makes Crosby less likeable or anything, my suggestions were more about storytelling. Particularly given the consensus about episode 8's weaknesses.
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TXAG 05
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In reply to Southlake • 12:33p, 3/18/24
AG
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.


There is also all the atrocities the Soviets committed as they made their way to Berlin. All those rapes and murders just get swept under the rug.
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TXTransplant
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 12:38p, 3/18/24
Same here. We went over the Christmas holidays. The scope of that museum is incredible. It's what reinvigorated my interest in the time period (work and life get in the way, and I don't spend as much time reading as I would like). After the trip, My BF and I rewatched BoB, since he had never seen it, and the we started MoTA. I also re-read BoB a few weeks ago. It was actually more quotable the second time around, especially since I had just watched the series.

We also spent the entire day and didn't get all the way through the museum. I would definitely want to go back (and budget two days, if you are going for the first time)
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EclipseAg
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In reply to TXAG 05 • 12:43p, 3/18/24
AG
TXAG 05 said:
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.


There is also all the atrocities the Soviets committed as they made their way to Berlin. All those rapes and murders just get swept under the rug.
The book "The German War" says official estimates are that 20 percent of German women were raped by the advancing Soviet soldiers.
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AgLA06
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In reply to EclipseAg • 12:46p, 3/18/24
AG
Seems low based on the stories that were told.
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Max Power
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 12:49p, 3/18/24
AG
G Martin 87 said:
TXTransplant said:
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore) that it even happened. The more history that happens in between, the less real it seems. I also think a lot of what happened during that time period is watered down. Outside of the Holocaust, I really did not know how horrific that time period was until I started reading more about it as an adult. I know there is plenty I will never read about, and there is only so much I can absorb at one time. But there is value in studying the unsanitized stories.

And while I don't believe suffering and grief is a competition, I am certainly grateful that I was born in the greatest period of peace the world has ever known. Nothing I have it will experience can compare to living through that.
I encourage every family to visit the National WWII Museum in New Orleans. Besides having an excellent physical collection of vehicles, aircraft, weapons, and memorabilia, the "digital dogtag" you pick up at the entrance allows you to follow a veteran's story through multiple exhibits. It's a wonderful way to hear and read about their experiences in the context of the big picture. There is also a Medal of Honor wall in one of the pavilions where you can highlight a picture of the soldier/sailor/airman and learn why they were awarded the MoH. Budget at least a full day, and that really only scratches the surface. (The food in the American Sector is very good, too. The adjoining Higgins Hotel is an excellent place to stay. Rosie's Bar on the roof is a must.)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/
Can confirm that museum is awesome. We visited last summer when we were on vacation in the area. If I knew how large that museum was I could have budgeted time better. It stretches between two buildings for those that haven't been. We spent so much time in the first one that we didn't get to spend much in the second building because a 7 year old girl only has so much patience once you get to lunch time. They referenced several of the guys from Band of Brothers and The Pacific in the museum. I can't remember how much was in there regarding the air campaign in Europe. I'll definitely go again the next time I'm in New Orleans.
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wangus12
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 12:52p, 3/18/24
AG
G Martin 87 said:
TXTransplant said:
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore) that it even happened. The more history that happens in between, the less real it seems. I also think a lot of what happened during that time period is watered down. Outside of the Holocaust, I really did not know how horrific that time period was until I started reading more about it as an adult. I know there is plenty I will never read about, and there is only so much I can absorb at one time. But there is value in studying the unsanitized stories.

And while I don't believe suffering and grief is a competition, I am certainly grateful that I was born in the greatest period of peace the world has ever known. Nothing I have it will experience can compare to living through that.
I encourage every family to visit the National WWII Museum in New Orleans. Besides having an excellent physical collection of vehicles, aircraft, weapons, and memorabilia, the "digital dogtag" you pick up at the entrance allows you to follow a veteran's story through multiple exhibits. It's a wonderful way to hear and read about their experiences in the context of the big picture. There is also a Medal of Honor wall in one of the pavilions where you can highlight a picture of the soldier/sailor/airman and learn why they were awarded the MoH. Budget at least a full day, and that really only scratches the surface. (The food in the American Sector is very good, too. The adjoining Higgins Hotel is an excellent place to stay. Rosie's Bar on the roof is a must.)

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/
Agreed.

Also DFW is currently building The National Medal of Honor Museum that will open sometime next year I believe
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aTmAg
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 1:11p, 3/18/24
AG
G Martin 87 said:
aTmAg said:
Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.
With BoB, Pacific, and especially MotA, I will admit to having strong emotions. The opening credits and the interviews in BoB always hit me hard. I always feel intense sadness and gratitude for the sacrifices paid by both the survivors and the lost. But never depression. If our country ever faces an existential threat in the future, I am confident that we will rise to meet it again.
I don't share your optimism. A recent Quinnipiac poll indicated that the majority of Democrats (52%) would leave the country rather than stay and fight if we faced an Ukrainian style invasion. And that theoretical is a bigger threat than we faced during WW2.

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agracer
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In reply to aTmAg • 1:26p, 3/18/24
AG
aTmAg said:
What about the P-51s shooting at the towers at the POW camp during liberation?

That is almost becoming a Spielberg calling card. Empire of the Sun, Saving Private Ryan, and now this.
I doubt the P-51 would be shooting at anything if the pilot knew it was a POW camp. I assumed it was Hollywood b/c for sure that strafing would have killed some POW's.
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DG-Ag
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In reply to aTmAg • 1:28p, 3/18/24
AG
aTmAg said:
G Martin 87 said:
aTmAg said:
Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.
With BoB, Pacific, and especially MotA, I will admit to having strong emotions. The opening credits and the interviews in BoB always hit me hard. I always feel intense sadness and gratitude for the sacrifices paid by both the survivors and the lost. But never depression. If our country ever faces an existential threat in the future, I am confident that we will rise to meet it again.
I don't share your optimism. A recent Quinnipiac poll indicated that the majority of Democrats (52%) would leave the country rather than stay and fight if we faced an Ukrainian style invasion. And that theoretical is a bigger threat than we faced during WW2.

I'm convinced if WWII had been fought in the 2020's instead of the 1940's we'd all be goose-steppin' and singing Deutschland Uber Alles...
You're from down South,
And when you open your mouth,
You always seem to put your foot there.
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agracer
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In reply to AgLA06 • 1:35p, 3/18/24
AG
AgLA06 said:
TXTransplant said:
What makes me sad is that so few of these guys and gals are still around to tell their stories. I think it hits so much harder when it's "living" history. Obviously, this is all just part of the passing of time, but these heroes and their stories are so legendary, it's almost like they are frozen in time in my mind.

I wonder if, as time passes, there will be fewer and fewer people even interested in hearing the stories. I think it's easy for younger generations to sort of forget (or maybe just ignore( that it even happened.
Time changes all.

The current generation is already starting to forget what it was like at 9/11 and the following months. My wife as a teacher says she's seen a change in the kids year by year in the last 20ish years. I guess it pretty similar to how my generation didn't relate to the Kennedy assassination or the first mission to the moon like our parents did because we didn't live it ourselves.

Sad, but life goes on. An honestly probably essential for mankind to be able to put things like the great depression, world wars, or other events of turmoil behind us and move on as a society.
My wife and I and youngest son visited the 9/11 museum in NCY in 2019. My son took his time and read a lot of it and was for sure introspective of what happened that day, but he wasn't even born until 2002. My wife and I took in every single display, recording, photo, etc. and were there for 5 hours before we knew it. It hit us a lot harder than it did our youngest.
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agracer
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In reply to EclipseAg • 1:43p, 3/18/24
AG
EclipseAg said:
TXAG 05 said:
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.


There is also all the atrocities the Soviets committed as they made their way to Berlin. All those rapes and murders just get swept under the rug.
The book "The German War" says official estimates are that 20 percent of German women were raped by the advancing Soviet soldiers.
the other 79% weren't reported.....

If you were a girl over the age of 10 living in the Russian sector of Berlin in 1945, or anywhere in Germany occupied by the Soviets, you had either been raped, likely more than once, or were going to be.
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TH36
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1:52p, 3/18/24
There's a reason Patton wanted to just turn the Wermacht right around and go fight the russkies.

Any of you know if the scene with Rosie seeing the concentration camp really happened?
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schmendeler
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In reply to DG-Ag • 1:53p, 3/18/24
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DG-Ag said:
aTmAg said:
G Martin 87 said:
aTmAg said:
Does anybody else get depressed when watching WW2 shows/documentaries?

Those dudes were badasses, and I don't think half of modern America would bother to get out of bed to fight the Nazis. In fact, they would blame us for "genocide" and horsecrap like that.
With BoB, Pacific, and especially MotA, I will admit to having strong emotions. The opening credits and the interviews in BoB always hit me hard. I always feel intense sadness and gratitude for the sacrifices paid by both the survivors and the lost. But never depression. If our country ever faces an existential threat in the future, I am confident that we will rise to meet it again.
I don't share your optimism. A recent Quinnipiac poll indicated that the majority of Democrats (52%) would leave the country rather than stay and fight if we faced an Ukrainian style invasion. And that theoretical is a bigger threat than we faced during WW2.

I'm convinced if WWII had been fought in the 2020's instead of the 1940's we'd all be goose-steppin' and singing Deutschland Uber Alles...


There's certainly a large contingent politically in the US that are currently perfectly fine with a more powerful European country invading a weaker neighbor using the guise of purported concern for ethnic compatriots in the targeted country.
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EclipseAg
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In reply to agracer • 1:54p, 3/18/24
AG
agracer said:
EclipseAg said:
TXAG 05 said:
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.


There is also all the atrocities the Soviets committed as they made their way to Berlin. All those rapes and murders just get swept under the rug.
The book "The German War" says official estimates are that 20 percent of German women were raped by the advancing Soviet soldiers.
the other 79% weren't reported.....

If you were a girl over the age of 10 living in the Russian sector of Berlin in 1945, or anywhere in Germany occupied by the Soviets, you had either been raped, likely more than once, or were going to be.
Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that was an insignificant number. Just reporting what the book says, and the author -- who used diaries, official documents and other reports -- made it clear that the incidents of mass rape in cities like Berlin and others were horrific.
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jwoodmd
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In reply to AgLA06 • 2:26p, 3/18/24
AgLA06 said:
Southlake said:
Hmmm. Interesting. The war against Japan was a war of eradication. We looked at the Japanese as sub humans who slaughtered the Chinese people.

Imagine if we knew earlier that the Germans were slaughtering not only Jews but also society's "unmentionables" Actually active genocide at its worst.

Yet, to this day we still hold the Germans in higher regard than the Japs.
2 western cultures that had similar expectations of decorum (SS aside) on the battlefield.

There wasn't many US service men afraid of being beheaded or eaten or being a science experiment in captivity by the Germans. I have no doubt the Stalags were no fun, but they were a cake walk in comparison to being a POW in the Pacific (assuming they took prisoners).
While being a prisoner of the Germans was no easy thing, there were many US servicemen who were of German parents or grandparents. They had German last names, some spoke maybe a little German - so, they were not seen as sub human or even inferior.

Amazing how what happened to POWs in Vietnam comes out and brought up all the time but because we needed to rebuild Japan and make them a strong ally in the Cold War, no one says much (until more recently) of how the Japanese were 1000x worse to our POWs than the Vietnamese.
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jenn96
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In reply to TH36 • 2:50p, 3/18/24
AG
TH36 said:
Any of you know if the scene with Rosie seeing the concentration camp really happened?

I don't know but I thought that scene was really well done. Both his rising horror at what he was seeing and the matter of fact way the Russians told him they found a lot more camps, much bigger ones, all through Poland and Germany. I knew watching it that he went on to be a prosecutor at Nuremberg, which made it even more of an epiphany.
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