I'd bet 100% they have an RO system to strip their water down before brewing.

AlaskanAg99 said:

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I'd bet 100% they have an RO system to strip their water down before brewing.

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Good point!

Ornlu said:

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Nah, it's not too bad.

Does your water report list any of these?

• pH
• Total Hardness (HCO or CaCO3 equivalent)
• Alkalinity or Bicarbonate

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Alright, here is my most recent water report.

Numbers tested and shown:

• Lead
• Copper
• Barium
• Total Haloacetic Acids
• Total Trihalomethanes
• Nitrate
• Iron
• Turbidity
• Total Dissolved Solids
• Specific Conductance
• Chloride
• Sulfate
• Bromide
• Bromochloroacetic acid (BCAA)
• Bromodichloroacetic acid (BDCAA)
• Chlorodibromoacetic acid (CDBAA)
• Dibromoacetic acid (DBAA)
• Dichloroacetic acid (DCAA)
• Trichloroacetic Acid (TCAA)

They specifically say "Windsor's water supply source contains moderately high calcium carbonate levels." Who knows what that means in terms of a number. It certainly doesn't seem that hard of water to me.

Total dissolved solid is 165 ppm. That's the sum of all the minerals, so Ca, CO3, Copper, bromide, etc all have to sum to 165. Given the other mineral levels in the report, I'd wager $0.02 that it's like 40 ppm Ca and 100ppm Carbonate (ish).

Ornlu said:

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Total dissolved solid is 165 ppm. That's the sum of all the minerals, so Ca, CO3, Copper, bromide, etc all have to sum to 165. Given the other mineral levels in the report, I'd wager $0.02 that it's like 40 ppm Ca and 100ppm Carbonate (ish).

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Blue parachute for you, thank you!

Alright, part 3 of 3. Here we'll go over how to figure out which salts/acids you need, and how to add them.

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First, it took me FAR too long to figure out how to use Bru'N Water, because it had a circular reference error. Found something on the FAQ's to fix it...
1. Open Excel
2. Push file > options. Go to the formulas page and turn on "iterative calculations".
3. Like this:

4. Viola, no more circular references.

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Next, enter the data onto the "1. Water Report Input" tab. Here's mine:


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Next - and this is controversial - skip the sparge tab and go to the grain bill tab. First make sure the "malt color setting" is lovibond and the "water used for mash" is adjusted. Then the important bits here are the Grain Type, Quantity, and Color tabs. Just enter your recipe; I'm entering a marzen here.

Surprisingly (at least to me) the color actually affects the acid contribution of the grain. Highly kilned malts with >200 lovibond generate quite a bit of acid in the mash.
Also, IGNORE THE MASH PH HERE. It's reading from the next tab, which has a whole bunch of stuff you haven't entered yet.

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Now, on the meat and potatoes: the "water adjustment" tab.
First select your target water profile, which should match the style of beer you're trying to brew. Then enter your mash water volume, sparge water volume, and total batch volume.


Next take a look at that "Actual Finished Water Adjustment" row, below the diluted water profile. This row tells you how much of each ion that you need to get the profile you want. When you start, it's probably significantly different than the "target" profile row just above it. Your goal is to manipulate the mineral addition column, below, in order to get the "actual finished water adjustment" row to match the target.


So play with the values of gypsum, epsom salt, etc until the actual profile matches the target. For my marzen, it only requires small additions of like 0.2 to 0.5 grams per gallon. For some stronger recipes, like a Russian Imperial stout, it may take 2+ grams per gallon.

Lastly, once your mineral selections have gotten you very close to your target profile (within 10ppm or less), move on to picking an acid in order to get the pH you want.

• Target a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.3 for "crisp" beer styles, like pilsner, mexican lager, etc.
• Target a mash pH of 5.3 to 5.4 for most light to amber colored beers, or even as dark as a porter.
• Target a mash pH of 5.4 to 5.6 for high ABV, dark beers. A RIS should aim for 5.6.

You can choose from a variety of acids... Phosphorus is normally considered the most "flavorless", but it's a messy liquid which I don't like. Citric is available in a powder, but it has a character which is against style for some beers. Lactic is also a messy liquid. Tartaric acid, or "cream of tartar" has a tanic character that can also be against style. Oh well, just pick one and use it. Mess with the dose rate until you get your desired pH, here:


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Now, with your minerals and volumes set, go back to the "Sparge Water Acidification" tab. Enter the same acid type as on the water additions tab, and then it'll tell you how much acid to add to your sparge to get the efficiency you want.

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Results time. Flip back to the water additions tab, and look at these cells:


Those are your mineral and acid additions, seperated into sparge and mash volumes. Now.... you just might have to buy a better scale to measure quantities that small. Just sprinkle the mash salts on top of your grain before you start to stir in. The sparge salts need to be stirred into the sparge water.

Ornlu said:

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Those are your mineral and acid additions, seperated into sparge and mash volumes. Now.... you just might have to buy a better scale to measure quantities that small. Just sprinkle the mash salts on top of your grain before you start to stir in. The sparge salts need to be stirred into the sparge water.

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I use this $15 one for salt additions and it works well, FWIW.

https://www.amazon.com/GDEALER-Digital-Kitchen-0-001oz-Stainless/dp/B01E6RE3A0/ref=sr_1_3?crid=34LTO5MEIQ6ZR&dchild=1&keywords=gdealer+scale&qid=1611177491&sprefix=gdealer+scale%2Caps%2C175&sr=8-3

There's a whole lot of problems with trying to measure salts out to 0.01g. First, I brew out doors, and the wind blows, and that makes much more than 0.01g of difference. Secondly, they drink up humidity... on a 80%+ humidity day, 10 grams of gypsum will gain like 0.01g of humidity a minute. Lastly, some of the grain sizes are bigger than 0.01g for a single granual. Oh well, I just round a bit. It's beer not rocket surgery.

Completely agree with screw it, it's beer. At the end of the day, the .05 grams I was off on my water salt additions is not keeping me up at night. I usually round as well. Just thought I'd throw out an extremely inexpensive scale I've had a positive experience with that's not just grams. Plus, the brand is "GDealer", which is kind of hilarious.

Thanks for the continued water input and discussion, can't wait to puzzle through it on subsequent batches more and more!

Right now though, a couple of questions. Please feel free to answer any or all!

• In your experience, what does a warmer mash temp provide with a beer? My brew day on Saturday started a little hot and I just stirred for a bit with the lid off of my igloo cooler to let some of the heat out. I still think it ran a few or even handful of degrees over my target temp (~154 target)
• Anyone have a pH meter that they recommend?
• Any of y'all do a "no chill" or "no sparge" method to brewing? I am looking for some ways to cut my brew day time for some of my brews.
(I originally had a 2nd question that I couldn't remember...so I just had these last 2 questions off the top of my head. Will see if I can remember what I wanted to ask...)

A couple of random notes to add:

• I feel that I am getting a little better at getting near my target OG. Would really like it to improve though. Hit 1.055-1.056 on my amber, was aiming for 1.058. I know grain is relatively cheap but I want my efficiency to still improve because it's lower than desired right now.
• I had to revamp my recipe mid boil on this amber due to an issue with my hops. Was using a combo of Warrior and Ahtanum, and didn't realize these bags were TWO ounces and not just ONE. Measured out my first hop addition of Warrior and used just fine, but then my initial 2nd addition (combo of the hops) was messed up because it wasn't really "the rest of the bag" as I had thought, and once I mixed I could not unmix.
• I redid the recipe using a 50/50 alpha acid combo to figure out IBU potential. We shall see, I think this is going to be a hoppy amber. Hope it's good! I'm not too mad though. Like I said, my main purpose for the batch was to try these 2 hops on hand out and get more practice on my system.

154 is the borderline for certain enzymes to be active to cut long chain sugars into smaller chains. Since you ended up on the high side, you could have denatured this enzyme. This will leave those long chain sugars intact.

Not the end of the world, but you may not hit your final gravity. The yeast won't consume all of the long chain sugars leaving a higher final gravity.

lne2011 said:

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154 is the borderline for certain enzymes to be active to cut long chain sugars into smaller chains. Since you ended up on the high dide, you could have denatured this enzyme. This will leave those long chain sugars intact.

Not the end of the world, but you may not hit your final gravity. The yeast won't consume all of the long chain sugars leaving a higher final gravity.

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Thank you for the technical info!

Chipotlemonger said:

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A couple of random notes to add:

• I feel that I am getting a little better at getting near my target OG. Would really like it to improve though. Hit 1.055-1.056 on my amber, was aiming for 1.058. I know grain is relatively cheap but I want my efficiency to still improve because it's lower than desired right now.
• I had to revamp my recipe mid boil on this amber due to an issue with my hops. Was using a combo of Warrior and Ahtanum, and didn't realize these bags were TWO ounces and not just ONE. Measured out my first hop addition of Warrior and used just fine, but then my initial 2nd addition (combo of the hops) was messed up because it wasn't really "the rest of the bag" as I had thought, and once I mixed I could not unmix.
• I redid the recipe using a 50/50 alpha acid combo to figure out IBU potential. We shall see, I think this is going to be a hoppy amber. Hope it's good! I'm not too mad though. Like I said, my main purpose for the batch was to try these 2 hops on hand out and get more practice on my system.

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Get a refractometer and you can easily test the OG preboil to see how close younare and adjust with DME. You should use software so you can look at steps and calculations.

Increasing your efficiency can be difficult. I saw a major bump going from batch source to fly spare and also adjusting pH of sparge water.

Do any of y'all store your CO2 talk outside your kegerator? If so, how did you do the bulkhead to bring the lines inside? Also, do you have any problems with the gas source being warm (garage temp) but the lines being cold, like condensation?

I store mine outside the keezer as it's 20 lbs. I ran a 2 way split straight through the wood collar on the side, one running to a 2 way regulator manifold, the other a long line just straight from the primary regulator(for burst carbing or pressure transferring). Have not noticed any condensation. I'm assuming I would have noticed some spitting from the lines if that was the case.

If you would like, I can post pictures in a couple of days when I get back to the house.

What if I don't have a wood collar? I'm using an upright freezer-on-top fridge, not a keezer.

You might be able to snake a hose through the drain.

Ornlu said:

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Do any of y'all store your CO2 talk outside your kegerator? If so, how did you do the bulkhead to bring the lines inside? Also, do you have any problems with the gas source being warm (garage temp) but the lines being cold, like condensation?

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I have two of these


with this on the outside to pop on gas line.



With dual regulator, each bulkhead setup goes through my wood collar and into a 4 valve manifold inside the keezer. The QD on the outside isn't necessary but makes it easy to pop off so the tank can be moved or filled.


Definitely split your lines inside, otherwise you have a bunch of holes in your sidewalls. You can do it through a fridge/freezer wall (since you have no collar) but youtube drilling into side of fridge for tips on making sure you don't hit any lines.

https://www.chicompany.net/flare-fittings-c-375_19_220_285/bulkhead-adapter-shank-long-p-2262.html

AlaskanAg99 said:

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You might be able to snake a hose through the drain.

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I was able to do this on an old typical fridge when I had some kegs in it. Red gas line fit very snugly through the drain hole in bottom of floor.

you can kind of see one bulkhead/manifold here, with the other manifold on the side, and the 20lb tank outside.



I've since put both regulators on one tank.

Saving the water chemistry stuff for later, great info. I need to get a little tighter in my current process though before I worry too much about that. Completely missed good conversion here of sugars. I think my mash started too high. Here are my recent amber ale stats. Didn't taste great.

• OG: 1.056 (target 1.058)
• FG: 1.027 (target 1.019)
• ABV: 3.8% (target 5.1%)

Just tried a sample after a week of carbonating and it tastes better...but I dunno, it's just "off" with a little too much sweetness and unbalanced. That FG is messing with me! I will let it sit a little while longer yet before I resort to possibly pouring. I may just keep it around and pull of a few pints for baking bread with until I have another beer ready.

For the mash, I have heard if you let the temp go down it can release the proper enzymes even if you started hotter? Is this true? For example, let it drop from 170 to 155, then put the lid back on my mash tun and wait a bit.

I currently have a needle thermometer only. I have a cheap probe thermometer in my kitchen, but think I'm going to get one specifically for brewing and mash temperature reading. I must have just not let the temp get cool enough after mashing in with slightly too warm of strike water.

Anyone else ever have this issue? What did you do with the high FG finish beer?

I should also add, it definitely had enough time to fully ferment. Fermentation really ripped for a day or so then died off pretty quick. I am over 99% sure I just didn't bring out the proper sugars because my mash must have been too warm.

If you start too hot, you run the risk of denaturing the enzymes that function at lower temps. It's really hard to convert starches once the mash has gotten too hot. The other problem is because our modified malt converts so fast, if you can't get the temp low enough fast enough, it's all moot. We all do 60min mashes, but the reality is most mashes are fully converted in the first 15-20 minutes.

My equipment allows me to go 'bottom up' on temps, so I generally mash in at 122F and I do steps for every single beer for the specific purpose of never getting too hot at the start. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. I just do it because my equipment allows me to do it with only pushing a few buttons. And with a HERMS setup, I don't have to worry about direct fire and scorching my mash.

And I think I'm going to take the written exam for national. I haven't studied in 22 years and now I'm going to have to make flashcards. I'm so not looking forward to this.

Thanks for the input! I agree the requirement of a full 60 min mash length has kind of been debunked. Makes sense that starting too hot would do too much irreparable damage in the first 15-20 minutes. I'll give the beer another try later this weekend, but I am leaning towards a drain pour and just trying my hand at another amber ale.

What test are you referring to?

You can always pitch champagne yeast too yo see if it'll knock it down.

BJCP beer judge written to go for National rank.

Chipotlemonger said:

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For the mash, I have heard if you let the temp go down it can release the proper enzymes even if you started hotter? Is this true? For example, let it drop from 170 to 155, then put the lid back on my mash tun and wait a bit
...
Anyone else ever have this issue? What did you do with the high FG finish beer?

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If you heat to 158+, you will denature all the enzymes you need in the mash. Do not let the mash be 158+ for more than a few seconds when douching in. If you need to pour in ~163 water for your mash to end up at 155ish, then good. But you will have severe conversion issues if you sit at 158+ for more than 3 mins.

Yes, I have had this issue. Yes, I did the experiment, in my own "lab". I implore you, it is better to end up too low, have to drain our some liquid and boil it and add it back, than it is to end up too hot.

I also agree that if you're having trouble keeping a steady mash temperature, now is not the right time to worry about water chemistry.

Yes my recent ESB beer I had to "ramp" up the temp a time or 2 during the mash as you described. Turned out much better! Great advice, thank y'all.

This weather make anyone else want to brew?

Absolutely. I'm breaking my major dry spell in the next week or two. Last brewed 3/6/20.

Nice! What are you brewing? I'm thinking I might brew a blonde or a table beer. Something crushable.

fav13andac1)c said:

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This weather make anyone else want to brew?

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I will brew a proper amber ale by golly!

fav13andac1)c said:

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Nice! What are you brewing? I'm thinking I might brew a blonde or a table beer. Something crushable.

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Either my octoberfest (called Marzen for a reason!) or a belgian dubbel.

Or maybe my vienna lager again in time for cinco de mayo, we killed keg #1 last year at our socially distanced street party!

I have ingredients purchased for a triple-dry-hopped NEIPA. 13oz of hops in a 4.5 gal batch.

Now I just need a day off work.

How do you plan to dry hop it and deal with the volume of green matter in the beer?