Like it or not, Grimes wasn't really given on ball duties when he was here. He had an 18.5% usage rate.
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KOC also thought Killian Hayes should have been a #1 overall pick too. His opinions are just that...his opinion. And it holds no more or less value than anyone elses.shack009 said:
And both KOC and the guest on the show said it was a good move for the Mavs at the time.
Everybody wants to MMQB this deal well after the fact that Grimes has been allowed to put up meaningless numbers with a 40% usage rate on a team actively trying to lose.
KOC said Martin was a more proven player than Grimes and that was just factual.
It's not MMQB when you can literally look at the facts. Just look at the age and production of Grimes and the age and production of Martin. It's crystal clear that Grimes is the better, OR AT WORST EQUAL, player. It doesn't take advanced scouting to just watch them play and simply SEE who is better. So WHY the need to attach a valuable pick? Set aside whatever you or KOC think of Martin/Grimes as players...WHY are the Mavs paying a higher price for a 29 yr old bench piece in exchange for a startable 24 yr old combo Guard?
Secondly, the Mavs are clearly not competing for anything and are in desperate need of literally any contribution and Martin has basically been invisible. He's made a grand total of 1 3pt attempt and had a cool dunk...but otherwise he seems like the type of guy he's always been outside of a 10 day stretch in the playoffs 2 years ago, pretty average.
And just to reiterate the point - - Marc Stein has refuted KOC's reporting that Grimes asked out. Idk who is right or who is wrong, but it's at least time to drop that narrative unless you think Grimes is lying AND Stein is wrong.
Here’s the Stein audio clip for anyone curious. https://t.co/AjA0ewhLvL pic.twitter.com/mey86pNHLC
— Josh (@theMcSwag) March 18, 2025
shack009 said:
Like it or not, Grimes wasn't really given on ball duties when he was here. He had an 18.5% usage rate.
Because they misevaluated him. Discount him all you want since he's on the 76ers, but the dude is scoring 21 PPG on 51% shooting and 39% from 3 since the trade. That isn't any "well someone has to score the points" bs where some dude is putting up 20 a game on 40% shooting. That's very solid.
And if the 76ers are so bad, sure would be nice to still have their 2nd rounder, wouldn't it?
I'll believe Stein saying that Grimes did not ask out. However, he had shown a reluctance to sign here by not signing an extension before the season. It's easy to see why the FO would see this as a Brunson situation and try to cash out when they can.M.C. Swag said:KOC also thought Killian Hayes should have been a #1 overall pick too. His opinions are just that...his opinion. And it holds no more or less value than anyone elses.shack009 said:
And both KOC and the guest on the show said it was a good move for the Mavs at the time.
Everybody wants to MMQB this deal well after the fact that Grimes has been allowed to put up meaningless numbers with a 40% usage rate on a team actively trying to lose.
KOC said Martin was a more proven player than Grimes and that was just factual.
It's not MMQB when you can literally look at the facts. Just look at the age and production of Grimes and the age and production of Martin. It's crystal clear that Grimes is the better, OR AT WORST EQUAL, player. It doesn't take advanced scouting to just watch them play and simply SEE who is better. So WHY the need to attach a valuable pick? Set aside whatever you or KOC think of Martin/Grimes as players...WHY are the Mavs paying a higher price for a 29 yr old bench piece in exchange for a startable 24 yr old combo Guard?
Secondly, the Mavs are clearly not competing for anything and are in desperate need of literally any contribution and Martin has basically been invisible. He's made a grand total of 1 3pt attempt and had a cool dunk...but otherwise he seems like the type of guy he's always been outside of a 10 day stretch in the playoffs 2 years ago, pretty average.
They are paying the higher price because they are giving an unproven player with no team control for a player who helped his team make the finals 2 seasons ago on a very reasonable deal for another 3 years. It's the certainty of team control at a really solid price. Martin is also the better defender and also has more defensive positional versatility. You are also leaving out the 2nd round pick the Mavs got back.
It's really premature to judge Martin on what he has done with the Mavs so far. He's playing in lineups where the best player is Naji Marshall. He's also still dealing with the hip injury. But Martin is just as startable as Grimes is. If they were both here and this team is fully healthy, neither would be starting. Martin started the vast majority of his games in Philly. Y'all are underselling him.
You keep mentioning the second we got back. We only got it back because we had the right to veto the trade due to injury concerns, and the 76ers wanted it to go through so bad that they threw in another second. So yes, we ended up with another second, but that was not part of the trade that was agreed to.
So they fleeced us for a valuable second (which Nico agreed to), and then happily threw a second our way so that the deal did not get blown up.
No one is underselling Martin. He's just a guy. Grimes is not playing with better players than Martin, and look what he's doing in Phili. I know they are different players, so Martin is much more dependent on who he plays with. But that's kinda the point. Bringing in Martin may make some sense if we had Luka. Once we traded away Luka, Grimes made much more sense, in addition to being the much better player.
So they fleeced us for a valuable second (which Nico agreed to), and then happily threw a second our way so that the deal did not get blown up.
No one is underselling Martin. He's just a guy. Grimes is not playing with better players than Martin, and look what he's doing in Phili. I know they are different players, so Martin is much more dependent on who he plays with. But that's kinda the point. Bringing in Martin may make some sense if we had Luka. Once we traded away Luka, Grimes made much more sense, in addition to being the much better player.
People are overvaluing that 2nd round pick. The Mavs took Jaden Hardy with a similar pick a few years ago. That's the type of player we are talking about, and usually it's worse than that.DannyDuberstein said:shack009 said:
Like it or not, Grimes wasn't really given on ball duties when he was here. He had an 18.5% usage rate.
And if the 76ers are so bad, sure would be nice to still have their 2nd rounder, wouldn't it?
It was still a part of the deal. I'm only mentioning it because the other 2nd round pick keeps getting mentioned. 2nd round picks are not valuable. Sure, it's better to draft in the mid 30s than the 50s, but we aren't talking about a likely hit on a good NBA player.mavsfan4ever said:
You keep mentioning the second we got back. We only got it back because we had the right to veto the trade due to injury concerns, and the 76ers wanted it to go through so bad that they threw in another second. So yes, we ended up with another second, but that was not part of the trade that was agreed to.
So they fleeced us for a valuable second (which Nico agreed to), and then happily threw a second our way so that the deal did not get blown up.
To be clear, I'm judging Martin's time with the Mavs only as a reflection to what Grimes is doing with his time in Philly (both bad teams with no real chance to win). My overall opinion of both players encompasses much more than that. I remember following Grimes' HS recruitment because my wife is a Jayhawk (and so I watched him at KU and subsequently at UH) and his early NBA career because the Knicks picked Grimes with OUR pick they acquired in the KP trade. Grimes is a guy that got better with every year and with every minute increase while Martin has clearly plateaued. There's no 'ceiling' to Martin. He is who he is. We have yet to determine the ceiling on Grimes and the need for a secondary scorer/ballhandler was obvious after the Luka trade and more dire heading into next season. It didn't make roster sense to trade Grimes.
And again, how often has a team traded away the more valuable player AND more valuable draft compensation in the same trade? lol
And again, how often has a team traded away the more valuable player AND more valuable draft compensation in the same trade? lol
The pick is projected to be the 35th pick in the draft. There's a TON of value in the pick. I won't even use the "jokic" example because we all agree that's never happening again. But guys like Herb Jones, Dillon Brooks, GG Jackson, hell even DANIEL GAFFORD were taken at that point or later in recent drafts. Guys up and down the league are playing REAL minutes in REAL games that were drafted in the early second round.shack009 said:People are overvaluing that 2nd round pick. The Mavs took Jaden Hardy with a similar pick a few years ago. That's the type of player we are talking about, and usually it's worse than that.DannyDuberstein said:shack009 said:
Like it or not, Grimes wasn't really given on ball duties when he was here. He had an 18.5% usage rate.
And if the 76ers are so bad, sure would be nice to still have their 2nd rounder, wouldn't it?
And even if you doubt the Mavs ability to find a guy that can contribute (valid based on history), it's still a valuable asset that can be used to massage around cap issues. Tons of teams would be willing to take on bad salary in exchange for an early 2nd.
It was also projected to be around 40th at the time of the trade. They had also just got Embiid back from injury and still had Maxey available. The Sixers have been the worst team in the league for a month now.M.C. Swag said:The pick is projected to be the 35th pick in the draft. There's a TON of value in the pick. I won't even use the "jokic" example because we all agree that's never happening again. But guys like Herb Jones, Dillon Brooks, GG Jackson, hell even DANIEL GAFFORD were taken at that point or later in recent drafts. Guys up and down the league are playing REAL minutes in REAL games that were drafted in the early second round.shack009 said:People are overvaluing that 2nd round pick. The Mavs took Jaden Hardy with a similar pick a few years ago. That's the type of player we are talking about, and usually it's worse than that.DannyDuberstein said:shack009 said:
Like it or not, Grimes wasn't really given on ball duties when he was here. He had an 18.5% usage rate.
And if the 76ers are so bad, sure would be nice to still have their 2nd rounder, wouldn't it?
And even if you doubt the Mavs ability to find a guy that can contribute (valid based on history), it's still a valuable asset that can be used to massage around cap issues. Tons of teams would be willing to take on bad salary in exchange for an early 2nd.
But far more players in the early second don't hang around rather than do. Sure, you'd rather have a bite at the apple than not, but let's not pretend that the Mavs are surely missing on a rotation player by not having that pick.
And I don't think the Mavs have any bad salary guys at this moment, other than maybe Klay, but I doubt he is going to be moved. Maxi was the last one on that front.
The picks are overvalued by fans because it's fun to do draft study and let your imagination run wild, but they aren't as practical as we'd hope.
Not spinning, "explaining" lol
Anthony Davis playing a round in Plano today ⛳️ pic.twitter.com/ui6HF9XzKn
— Dallas Texas TV (@DallasTexasTV) March 18, 2025
golf? that's like the worst activity you could do with an oblique injury. good griefLawHall88 said:Anthony Davis playing a round in Plano today ⛳️ pic.twitter.com/ui6HF9XzKn
— Dallas Texas TV (@DallasTexasTV) March 18, 2025
https://www.theringer.com/2025/03/18/nba/nba-playoffs-stretch-run-preview-oklahoma-city-thunder-boston-celticsQuote:
3. Which team has the bleakest future: the Dallas Mavericks, Phoenix Suns, or Philadelphia Sixers?
Chau: The Mavericks. Look, Phoenix won't have full control of its first-round pick for the next seven seasons because of shortsighted win-now ploys, and Philly's road map as a contender may have gone up in smoke, but those teams represent levels of mismanagement that still fall within a recognizable range on a spectrum. Dallas violated a social contract with its fan base, and we probably haven't seen the full extent of the ramifications. The Suns and Sixers could **** everything up, and it would only reinforce their fans' unique relationship with those respective teams. What the Mavs have done has fundamentally denatured the fans' relationship with the team. There's NBA bleak, and then there's existentially bleak.
Beck: It's absolutely the Mavericks. The Suns aren't stuckthey can replenish their draft capital by trading Kevin Durant or opt for a total reset and trade both Durant and Devin Booker for a boatload of stuff. The Sixers could bounce back quickly if their creaky stars get healthy. They also have a blossoming star in Tyrese Maxey and control of most of their draft picks. But the Mavs? Ack. Kyrie Irving, their top scorer and playmaker, has a torn ACL and will be 34 years old (or close) by the time he plays again. Anthony Davis, their best two-way player, is 32 and can't stay healthy, either. The Mavs have just two tradable first-round picks in the next seven drafts. And in the wake of the Doncic trade, it's hard to have much faith in their decision-making.
Pina: Unless Mat Ishbia changes his tune and realizes Phoenix can't take a step forward until it takes several steps back, it's the Suns. Even if they're able to get a massive haul for Kevin Durant (unlikely given his age, contract, and leverage), there's still so much cultural rot that needs to be scrubbed clean. Their payroll is historically bloated. Their cupboard of movable draft picks is nearly bare. They have the third-oldest roster in the league. If they don't trade Devin Bookera common-sense move that's opposed by Ishbiathere's no path to being competitive for the foreseeable future or having a future beyond that to look forward to.
Goldsberry: The Mavs do. Pro basketball is a business, and this ownership group just alienated its fan base in a profound way. Not only is the roster in shambles, but this organization will also have a tough time winning back customers for a while. TV ratings will plummet. So will jersey and ticket sales. There is a real animosity between the fan base and the owners, and that's not great for business … or culture.
F *ck Nico!!!
Do they not realize that this Mavs roster can still contend? Clearly those guys don't know ball
Golf Clothes
Hookah Doncic was just using the wrong kind of delivery system. Euros doing Euro **** is unacceptable!zgolfz85 said:golf? that's like the worst activity you could do with an oblique injury. good griefLawHall88 said:Anthony Davis playing a round in Plano today ⛳️ pic.twitter.com/ui6HF9XzKn
— Dallas Texas TV (@DallasTexasTV) March 18, 2025
There's literally no way to know that's him.
But seriously, not what you want to see lol.
But seriously, not what you want to see lol.
What happens at Gleneagles stays at Gleneagles
I agree with the fan betrayal notes, but think Philly and Phoenix are in worst positions roster wise. Beal is untradable and I don't think Durant has much value now at 37, especially considering that he just is not a leader.LawHall88 said:https://www.theringer.com/2025/03/18/nba/nba-playoffs-stretch-run-preview-oklahoma-city-thunder-boston-celticsQuote:
3. Which team has the bleakest future: the Dallas Mavericks, Phoenix Suns, or Philadelphia Sixers?
Chau: The Mavericks. Look, Phoenix won't have full control of its first-round pick for the next seven seasons because of shortsighted win-now ploys, and Philly's road map as a contender may have gone up in smoke, but those teams represent levels of mismanagement that still fall within a recognizable range on a spectrum. Dallas violated a social contract with its fan base, and we probably haven't seen the full extent of the ramifications. The Suns and Sixers could **** everything up, and it would only reinforce their fans' unique relationship with those respective teams. What the Mavs have done has fundamentally denatured the fans' relationship with the team. There's NBA bleak, and then there's existentially bleak.
Beck: It's absolutely the Mavericks. The Suns aren't stuckthey can replenish their draft capital by trading Kevin Durant or opt for a total reset and trade both Durant and Devin Booker for a boatload of stuff. The Sixers could bounce back quickly if their creaky stars get healthy. They also have a blossoming star in Tyrese Maxey and control of most of their draft picks. But the Mavs? Ack. Kyrie Irving, their top scorer and playmaker, has a torn ACL and will be 34 years old (or close) by the time he plays again. Anthony Davis, their best two-way player, is 32 and can't stay healthy, either. The Mavs have just two tradable first-round picks in the next seven drafts. And in the wake of the Doncic trade, it's hard to have much faith in their decision-making.
Pina: Unless Mat Ishbia changes his tune and realizes Phoenix can't take a step forward until it takes several steps back, it's the Suns. Even if they're able to get a massive haul for Kevin Durant (unlikely given his age, contract, and leverage), there's still so much cultural rot that needs to be scrubbed clean. Their payroll is historically bloated. Their cupboard of movable draft picks is nearly bare. They have the third-oldest roster in the league. If they don't trade Devin Bookera common-sense move that's opposed by Ishbiathere's no path to being competitive for the foreseeable future or having a future beyond that to look forward to.
Goldsberry: The Mavs do. Pro basketball is a business, and this ownership group just alienated its fan base in a profound way. Not only is the roster in shambles, but this organization will also have a tough time winning back customers for a while. TV ratings will plummet. So will jersey and ticket sales. There is a real animosity between the fan base and the owners, and that's not great for business … or culture.
The three worst contracts in the league are Beal, Embiid, and Paul George. Nothing else is even close.
If Phoenix wants to trade to bottom out, they basically have to send Booker to Houston to get back their own picks. Philly owes picks to OKC, Brooklyn, and the Clippers.
M.C. Swag said:shack009 said:
And both KOC and the guest on the show said it was a good move for the Mavs at the time.
Everybody wants to MMQB this deal well after the fact that Grimes has been allowed to put up meaningless numbers with a 40% usage rate on a team actively trying to lose.
KOC said Martin was a more proven player than Grimes and that was just factual.Here’s the Stein audio clip for anyone curious. https://t.co/AjA0ewhLvL pic.twitter.com/mey86pNHLC
— Josh (@theMcSwag) March 18, 2025
I just listened to the rest of the DLLS pod and want to point out that Stein spent about 10 more minutes talking about the trade and saying everything I have said about the trade.
He even said something along the lines of "there were justifiable basketball reasons" for the trade. He laid out all the reasons you make the trade at the time, all of which I have stated already.
Ya, Stein spoke to Nico's thought process and then Cato spoke to why trading Grimes after getting rid of Luka was dumb (something we all said). The Mavs needed someone who could handle the ball and generate their own offense. Getting a vet wing defender like Martin makes sense if you have 2 elite playmaker/scorers (Luka/Kyrie) but makes less sense when you don't. The value Grimes brings to the court was something this team desperately needed. It's why Kyrie was asked to play the most minutes in the NBA. THATS THE ARGUMENT.
And again, EVERYONE said it was dumb for the Mavs to give Philly their draft pick back. It reeked of desperation by Nico.
You're acting like people here said Nico made this trade without "reasons." We're saying he had them, but they lacked sense AND it was a gross overpay.
There's 2 pillars of incompetence at play:
1) Giving up a younger more talented player at a position of need.
2) Attaching draft comp to "dump" that player.
You can defend point 1 all day (I still think it's wrong) but you can't defend point 2.
And again, EVERYONE said it was dumb for the Mavs to give Philly their draft pick back. It reeked of desperation by Nico.
You're acting like people here said Nico made this trade without "reasons." We're saying he had them, but they lacked sense AND it was a gross overpay.
There's 2 pillars of incompetence at play:
1) Giving up a younger more talented player at a position of need.
2) Attaching draft comp to "dump" that player.
You can defend point 1 all day (I still think it's wrong) but you can't defend point 2.
Cato also said in the final segment that Grimes is terrible in the pick and roll. He's turning it over 20% of the time and they are at 0.84 points per possession on the PNR. Hes at like 44% eFG% in the PNR. Hes getting all his buckets in the isolation on a 5 out team. And to be fair to him his iso numbers are elite. But it isn't how you win games in the playoffs.
They all also said Caleb Martin was the better defender and he's now the best wing defender on the Mavs.
My point is that yall are way overselling Grimes and way underselling Martin.
Maybe you'd rather have Grimes in the regular season, especially when you have no other ball handlers and big men, but Martin is probably the better playoff player and he's definitely the more proven playoff player.
They all also said Caleb Martin was the better defender and he's now the best wing defender on the Mavs.
My point is that yall are way overselling Grimes and way underselling Martin.
Maybe you'd rather have Grimes in the regular season, especially when you have no other ball handlers and big men, but Martin is probably the better playoff player and he's definitely the more proven playoff player.
We'll never know because Mavs aren't playoff bound this year and likely next. And I still laugh that that 1 post season series somehow solidified him as a "playoff guy."
Back off man! He averaged 2.7 less points than Duncan Robinson for an entire playoff run three years ago. He's so good!
M.C. Swag said:
We'll never know because Mavs aren't playoff bound this year and likely next. And I still laugh that that 1 post season series somehow solidified him as a "playoff guy."
Yeah the guy had an incredible run in the playoffs but we don't know if he's a playoff guy.
Elite Iso is how you win the last 2 minutes which is when many NBA games are decided, playoffs included
DannyDuberstein said:
Iso is how you win the last 2 minutes which is when many NBA games are decided, playoffs included
But it's also the easiest thing to defend, especially if it's a relatively smaller guard. Playoff teams have defenders who can guard in isolation. There also isn't the same floor spacing in the playoffs because you have centers in the game for rim protection. The Sixers are playing small 5-out lineups that nobody would do in the playoffs.
Well, 3 of the top 6 iso players in last year's playoffs were the same height or shorter than Grimes.
Just wasting time for some reason he is just dug in on defending everything the front office has done.
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