It's important considering the point/context is that there are no available centers on this Mavs roster right now. Outside of Kylor Kelly who nobody had heard of until 2 weeks ago and who Kidd legitimately hates.

Gafford to be reevaluated in 2 weeks. That's not good. Shut it down.

shack009 said:

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Gafford to be reevaluated in 2 weeks. That's not good. Shut it down.

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Whats something catchy for getting Flagg...sandbag for Flagg?

PatAg said:

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shack009 said:

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Gafford to be reevaluated in 2 weeks. That's not good. Shut it down.

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Whats something catchy for getting Flagg...sandbag for Flagg?

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It's been Capture the Flagg.

shack009 said:

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It's important considering the point/context is that there are no available centers on this Mavs roster right now. Outside of Kylor Kelly who nobody had heard of until 2 weeks ago and who Kidd legitimately hates.

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How much does that matter when at the time of the Luka trade, Daniel Gafford was perfectly healthy and Lively was about a couple weeks out from being reevaluated? Since we are talking context.

Mavs could have gotten a lower-end big like Nurk, Val, Wiseman, or whomever else to patch things together until DLive is back rather than flip Luka for AD lmao

Zachary Klement said:

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shack009 said:

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It's important considering the point/context is that there are no available centers on this Mavs roster right now. Outside of Kylor Kelly who nobody had heard of until 2 weeks ago and who Kidd legitimately hates.

---

How much does that matter when at the time of the Luka trade, Daniel Gafford was perfectly healthy and Lively was about a couple weeks out from being reevaluated? Since we are talking context.

Mavs could have gotten a lower-end big like Nurk, Val, Wiseman, or whomever else to patch things together until DLive is back rather than flip Luka for AD lmao

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Wiseman isn''t going to patch too many things up after tearing his achilles tendon in the first game of the season. Nurk has a big salary and would require moving a big rotation player like Washington. Jonas is a smaller contract, but still harder to work in and took 2 seconds. He is also one of the worst rim protectors in the league. There were almost no options for centers on the market that could actually contribute to winning, which is why the Lakers traded for a guy that had played 83 of 212 games and then ended up cutting Christian Wood to sign Alex Len. The spurs signed Biyombo, who hasn't even played this year.

a lot more murmurs on AD being out for season popping up...could just be people regurgitating others, but the way this season is going, I'd bet on it

and now, we're not in a position to truly tank...we're in no man's land. we won't have a realistic shot at flagg. we've proven to be pretty good in draft evaluations of late (mostly cuz of Lively, so a bit overstated), so we'll see

MW03 said:

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G1 2023
Luka
Kyrie
DJJ
Williams
Kleber

G1 2024

Nah the Dallas Mavericks front office is ELITE.

(Via @clovermars1) pic.twitter.com/KTtL1LgQin

— MFFL NATION (@NationMffl) July 8, 2024

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Wild times we are living in.

I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

The thing that is irking me the most is the fact that all these media members believe they deserve an answer as to why. You don't. Why can't you accept the Mavs have a better chance the next 2-3 years this way? Why can't you accept the organization doesn't want to throw Luka under the bus? Or why can't you accept the NBA is bleeding and needed Luka in LA or NYC OR Boston and the Mavs haven't keep quiet on it? If you owned a business and had to let your best rep go because they couldn't keep their nose clean, would you tell everybody or would you do what you could to help the guy and maybe take a little grief over it for some time?

bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

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Yeah, the casuals will disagree with you, but I think you're right. Assuming complete health, the Mavs current roster is probably better equipped to beat teams like Denver, OKC, Boston, or Cleveland in the near term. A championship isn't guaranteed in either scenario, but I do think it is more likely in the next 2-3 years if you can keep healthy than otherwise would have been.

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD. Lively also has to be considered injury prone until he isn't.

Mavs weren't going to keep any draft picks while Luka was here. They would constantly be trading picks in order to try to improve the team around Luka, while hoping guys like Klay would join the team in the offseason.

CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

Because it wasn't a long term play, it was a short term play.

It's obviously terrible business, but Nico said the goal is to win now. He also said he won't be here in several years, so his intentions are quite clear. He sold the future to try to win now. He did his deal with the devil, hopefully it's not us paying the price.

Any other deal would not have returned a player who can help you win in the next 2-3 years like this one did. It would have been a losing player like Lamelo and then you are stuck hoping you land the guy later with one of your 5 or 6 picks/swaps that you also got.

If healthy and the Mavs got Reaves and another pick, the trade makes sense for team building in the short term. Most teams that are contenders do not have the size that the Mavs have with Lively, Gafford, AD and Washington. They aren't even close. But the Mavs really needed to get the second ball handler in the deal and obviously the injuries are awful.

From the team building perspective, the Mavs killed OKC with size last year, and that's why OKC went out and got Hartenstein. But even with Hart, you can't have Chet guard gafford or AD, and Hart isn't going to be able to handle AD's outside game. Minnesota was build bigger and they couldn't handle it, either, but they shot themselves in the foot by trading KAT. Houston has athleticism, but not size with Sengun as their center and Jabari, Eason, or Amen at PF. They have been melting down completely because they failed to go get a #1 guy to lead the team. So then you are down to Denver with Jokic and MPJ. AD would run all over MPJ and Joker isn't a great defender. Memphis maybe matches up the best with JJJ and Edey, but Edey isn't really there yet and he is slow AF.

I think the theory of it makes a lot of sense. Everyone is going small and you can punish that by being dominatingly big. Really, AD and Giannis are the only two PFs in the game that work with that line of thought.

But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

---

Yep, this is the only thing that will give Mavs fans peace, long term. Have to be able to look back and say "Nico was right about Luka's lifestyle and commitment to basketball." We won't have the answer for another 10 years probably.

The weird thing is, we will have no way of knowing if Luka ever would have gotten his ass in gear while he was here. If he does it in LA, it will probably be because of his "F you" mentality that the trade created.

---

I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

---

Yep, this is the only thing that will give Mavs fans peace, long term. Have to be able to look back and say "Nico was right about Luka's lifestyle and commitment to basketball." We won't have the answer for another 10 years probably.

The weird thing is, we will have no way of knowing if Luka ever would have gotten his ass in gear while he was here. If he does it in LA, it will probably be because of his "F you" mentality that the trade created.

---

I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

I don't think he needs to. The dude might not have the conditioning ethic we wanted, but the holding himself to legendary standards for wins and losses and the generational talent ego and hatred for losses is clearly there, fat boy or not. The dude is 25. I was a 3 night a week bar binge drinker at 25. My bet would be on playing good cop bad cop with him internally to make him revenge body for the Mavs and betting on his maturation. Losing makes people like Luka angry. There was too much meat on the bone and upside there to throw it away…and that's just the on court stuff. There's not a single justification for off court business stuff, unless you like devaluing a brand, especially in a football first town.

Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

zgolfz85 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

---

Yep, this is the only thing that will give Mavs fans peace, long term. Have to be able to look back and say "Nico was right about Luka's lifestyle and commitment to basketball." We won't have the answer for another 10 years probably.

The weird thing is, we will have no way of knowing if Luka ever would have gotten his ass in gear while he was here. If he does it in LA, it will probably be because of his "F you" mentality that the trade created.

---

I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

I don't think he needs to. The dude might not have the conditioning ethic we wanted, but the holding himself to legendary standards for wins and losses and the generational talent ego and hatred for losses is clearly there, fat boy or not. The dude is 25. I was a 3 night a week bar binge drinker at 25. My bet would be on playing good cop bad cop with him internally to make him revenge body for the Mavs and betting on his maturation. Losing makes people like Luka angry. There was too much meat on the bone and upside there to throw it away…and that's just the on court stuff. There's not a single justification for off court business stuff, unless you like devaluing a brand, especially in a football first town.

---

It isn't there enough to make him not gain weight from the final regular season game to the playoffs. It isn't there enough to get his body right in the offseason to the point where you don't get injured in a pickup game before training camp.

Like GS said above, he doesn't have that long term singular focus/discipline. He only has it when he's on the court.

It's possible he wins a championship and maybe multiple championships. I just disagree with most people's thoughts on the likelihood of it happening.

MW03 said:

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shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

---

Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

South Platte said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

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There's just no backing for this. The Lakers are historically great at attracting talent because they are the Lakers, but they have also made lots of dumb moves to bring in talent like gutting the team for Brodie and that Mark Williams trade that I thought was horrendous. If Luka leaves the Lakers, it means Luka was a massive problem or the Lakers royally ****ed up.

But I don't buy the thought that "Luka will win a title somewhere just because he is a great player" like of thinking. Roster building starts with a top 10 guy like Luka, but it takes a lot more than that to succeed.

shack009 said:

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zgolfz85 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

---

shack009 said:

---

Guitarsoup said:

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But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

---

Yep, this is the only thing that will give Mavs fans peace, long term. Have to be able to look back and say "Nico was right about Luka's lifestyle and commitment to basketball." We won't have the answer for another 10 years probably.

The weird thing is, we will have no way of knowing if Luka ever would have gotten his ass in gear while he was here. If he does it in LA, it will probably be because of his "F you" mentality that the trade created.

---

I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

I don't think he needs to. The dude might not have the conditioning ethic we wanted, but the holding himself to legendary standards for wins and losses and the generational talent ego and hatred for losses is clearly there, fat boy or not. The dude is 25. I was a 3 night a week bar binge drinker at 25. My bet would be on playing good cop bad cop with him internally to make him revenge body for the Mavs and betting on his maturation. Losing makes people like Luka angry. There was too much meat on the bone and upside there to throw it away…and that's just the on court stuff. There's not a single justification for off court business stuff, unless you like devaluing a brand, especially in a football first town.

---

It isn't there enough to make him not gain weight from the final regular season game to the playoffs. It isn't there enough to get his body right in the offseason to the point where you don't get injured in a pickup game before training camp.

Like GS said above, he doesn't have that long term singular focus/discipline. He only has it when he's on the court.

It's possible he wins a championship and maybe multiple championships. I just disagree with most people's thoughts on the likelihood of it happening.

---

Many said the same about Jordan in the 80s....and some cocky kid from Philly in his early days in LA....and some nerdy/awkward looking white boy from Indiana.....and Giannis was never going to develop his body enough to be dominant....and Tatum didn't have the cutthroat mentality needed to lead a championship team....and same for Dirk and on and on we go. You just don't piss away generational talent DNA...they'll prove you wrong more often than not.