Anti-voucher RINOs get their assess kicked.

22,477 Views | 448 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by Burdizzo
Booma94
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Agthatbuilds said:

Does it follow to a private school? What about a school outside the district?


No, private schools do not receive state funds. Yes, the if the child attends a different public school in a different district, the state funds follow them.

There is a very small district near the district I live in. They literally beg transfer students to come and welcome them with open arms because each transfer student increases the average daily attendance, which in turn increases money from the state.
Agthatbuilds
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That's fine. I agree to disagree on the broadness of your definition or the narrowness of mine
ds00
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But with vouchers following kids, the money still has to come from somewhere. If it's actually local, many will be shocked that their property taxes on their house are not what's funding their kid. In Galveston if you keep the property taxes from the ports in the city we'll all be swimming in money but Clear Lake will not.
twk
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AG
It's funny whenever folks start pushing something as an easy solution to problems. It rarely works out that way.

Vouchers, as proposed in the legislature, will not improve our education system. It probably won't even help the pocketbooks of those who take advantage of them in the long run.

Anyone who has watched what pouring federal money into higher education has done over the last four decades should know what is coming. Once the folks at Hockaday, St. Marks, Country Day, and the other top private schools realize that their parents have $10,000 per child more to spend, they will raise tuition in order to improve their offerings, whether for new facilities, new courses, higher teacher pay (private schools usually pay less than public); not that I blame them for that, as it is a natural market response. The next schools down the chain will follow suit.

Education is a lot like healthcare, in that people don't necessarily seek out the cheapest option; in fact, with education, folks often seek out the most expensive option figuring it is the best. A lot of private schools make do with limited facilities and offerings, but if there money is there to improve facilities and offerings, they are going to do that rather than having that $10,000 burn a hole in the pockets of the parents who are already spending money to go to private schools.

Over time, that $10,000 from the state will all be eaten up by inflation as described, above. Meantime, the next time money is tight for the legislature, where will they cut back? On vouchers, or on public school spending? If voucher advocates control the legislature, you can bet it will be the latter. That is what concerns rural school district residents.

If we subsidize private education, and make it so that anyone in the cities who cares about the education of their children sends their kids to private schools, then cutting public school funding will be one of the first options in a budget crunch. Public schools, by and large, actually work in our rural areas. They don't want or need a private option. They know that the urban areas have the votes, and understandably fear the creation of a dual school system, where urban middle class and upper class kids go to private schools, while the urban poor and rural kids are the only ones left in public schools.

Now, if private school tuition inflates as I expect it will, there may be some self correction there, and middle class urban parents may find that they still can't afford good private schools, so we might avoid the kind of dual system that would pose an existential threat to public education. But, if that is how it plays out, then vouchers will be nothing more than a subsidy which ends up doing something that nobody wants, which is simply to increase the price of private education.

Public schools have provided ample evidence that merely throwing money at a problem is not a solution, yet that is exactly what voucher advocates are proposing; only they want the money thrown at private schools rather than public schools. It won't work in either case.
aTmAg
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Burdizzo said:

aTmAg said:

Burdizzo said:

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

Burdizzo said:

Science Denier said:

Antoninus said:

aTmAg said:

This should be obvious to everybody.)
what is "obvious" is the you do not understand the meaning of the word "socialist."

not every policy that you dislike is "socialist." Not every bad policy is "socialist."


Taking from the rich and giving handouts to the "poor" is pretty much the definition of socialism.



So is funding a military that protects all citizens from our enemies, regardless of how much each citizen pays.


Not really. It irks me how people can call basic government functions (that have been present in almost all forms of government in human history) "socialism".


We all pay for it. Some pay more than others . We benefit when it works. We suffer when it doesn't. You can argue about whether or not it and education is "basic" as a government function, but the fact that it is a shared social cost is at its root socialism
Everybody should pay for the government resources they consume. If one person pays $1 for a service that benefits him $100, while another pays $1000 for a service that benefits him than $500, then that is also redistribution. Ideally, the first guy should pay $100, and the second $500.

The closer to this ideal, the less socialist we become.
Can you tell me what shade of blue colors the sky in a perfect world?
My sky is blue just like everybody elses.

And there is a reason I said "ideal". At some point it costs more to divvy up taxes to that ideal. As long as it's "close enough" it's fine. But taxing a dude in county X to fund person in county Y is not even trying. It's unabashed socialism, and therefore stupid.
Antoninus
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simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."
oldag941
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AG
Exactly. More money does not guarantee better results. The converse though is that less money (or no additional money since 2019) will result in worse results. It will have some good actions of forcing some trimming of "fat" but it will also continue to pressure teachers against entering education or remaining in education due to lack of funding for competitive wages. Our district starts teachers at $60k and after 30 years, that teacher makes about $75k. Our experience cross-section of teacher-force has dramatically gone to majority 0-5 years over the last decade. If you can't hire the best teachers nor keep the best teachers, student performance will show.

Obviously other factors in "selling" the career, but every survey done shows competitive compensation remains number 1 by a long shot.
geoag58
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Logos Stick said:

The horse is out of the barn at this point. These are the states with some form of choice program:




Looking at that map Texas is hanging out with the scum bags. Texas needs to correct that quickly!
Fight against the dictatorship of the federal bureaucracy!
WT FOX
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Antoninus said:

simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."


Yes. End public schools. Also end universal suffrage.

Both steps in the right direction back towards the founders intent.
ds00
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No way a private school that costs $12,000/year lets in all the kids with $12,000 coming from the state. They will raise rates considerably. The reason they exist in many cases is to keep those kids out.
Booma94
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twk said:

It's funny whenever folks start pushing something as an easy solution to problems. It rarely works out that way.

Vouchers, as proposed in the legislature, will not improve our education system. It probably won't even help the pocketbooks of those who take advantage of them in the long run.

Anyone who has watched what pouring federal money into higher education has done over the last four decades should know what is coming. Once the folks at Hockaday, St. Marks, Country Day, and the other top private schools realize that their parents have $10,000 per child more to spend, they will raise tuition in order to improve their offerings, whether for new facilities, new courses, higher teacher pay (private schools usually pay less than public); not that I blame them for that, as it is a natural market response. The next schools down the chain will follow suit.

Education is a lot like healthcare, in that people don't necessarily seek out the cheapest option; in fact, with education, folks often seek out the most expensive option figuring it is the best. A lot of private schools make do with limited facilities and offerings, but if there money is there to improve facilities and offerings, they are going to do that rather than having that $10,000 burn a hole in the pockets of the parents who are already spending money to go to private schools.

Over time, that $10,000 from the state will all be eaten up by inflation as described, above. Meantime, the next time money is tight for the legislature, where will they cut back? On vouchers, or on public school spending? If voucher advocates control the legislature, you can bet it will be the latter. That is what concerns rural school district residents.

If we subsidize private education, and make it so that anyone in the cities who cares about the education of their children sends their kids to private schools, then cutting public school funding will be one of the first options in a budget crunch. Public schools, by and large, actually work in our rural areas. They don't want or need a private option. They know that the urban areas have the votes, and understandably fear the creation of a dual school system, where urban middle class and upper class kids go to private schools, while the urban poor and rural kids are the only ones left in public schools.

Now, if private school tuition inflates as I expect it will, there may be some self correction there, and middle class urban parents may find that they still can't afford good private schools, so we might avoid the kind of dual system that would pose an existential threat to public education. But, if that is how it plays out, then vouchers will be nothing more than a subsidy which ends up doing something that nobody wants, which is simply to increase the price of private education.

Public schools have provided ample evidence that merely throwing money at a problem is not a solution, yet that is exactly what voucher advocates are proposing; only they want the money thrown at private schools rather than public schools. It won't work in either case.
It's unfortunate that this post can only be given 1 star per user...
aTmAg
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Agthatbuilds said:

That's fine. I agree to disagree on the broadness of your definition or the narrowness of mine
Your definition serves no purpose and is therefore worthless. It basically means, "stuff I don't like is socialism and stuff I don't like is not socialism."

It's important to understand WHY some policies fail and why others succeed. That way we can support good ones and oppose bad ones. That's the whole point.
Antoninus
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aTmAg said:

Everybody should pay for the government resources they consume. If one person pays $1 for a service that benefits him $100, while another pays $1000 for a service that benefits him than $500, then that is also redistribution
a very nice, concise summary of aanarchocapitalism. As I said, you consider anything left of an AnCap to be "socialism."

It is a mind-numbingly simplistic way of looking at the world.
oldag941
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AG
Our district received a lot of COVID money. Vast majority was legally tied to hiring temporary teachers, paraprofessionals etc to help accelerate return to 2019 performance. Problem was there were not enough people on the street to hire. So a lot of that money went to a one-time retaining stipend (roughly $750) for teachers. Outside of that, districts were restricted from a lot. Some supplanting of budget line items was allowed. But had to be tied to certain things. Anyhow, that money was federal, it came, and it went. Districts tried to be intentional on its value considering everyone knew it was temporary. Maybe some found a way to waste it, but tracking our local ISD, it doesn't seem to be.
Ag87H2O
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aTmAg said:

angus55 said:

aTmAg said:

angus55 said:

Agthatbuilds said:

My money should follow my kids. simple as that. If that's my local public school, great.

If that's the high school across town, great.

If that's a charter school, great.

If that's a private school, great.



If I don't have kids in school give me my money back, great
So you are for pure privatization then. Good, you are catching on.


No, just taking that logic to natural conclusion.

Privatization would not be good for our national interests . Look at student loan stupidity. And its natural conclusion would be haves and have nots in terms of learning and growth of citizens. Public education is a public good when done correctly. It is important to the what should be the real economic engine of our economy. And full privatization would be a detriment. It is something I don't mind paying taxes for when administered correctly.
The student loan stupidity is created and fueled completely by government. To pretend that is an issue of "privatization" is a joke.

And it's improper to call something a "public good" merely because you want government to pay for it. Otherwise, I can just declare my own personal Lamborghini to be a "public good". There is an economic definition of public good (that it be non-rivalrous and non-excludable), and education does not fit into that category. And THAT is why government schools have been such a failure. Government sucks at providing private goods.

If you really wanted schools to be good (and understood economics), then you would be BEGGING for schools to be 100% privatized.
Well said.
Charpie
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AG
It's going to be interesting to see how this pans out. I'm just glad that my kid is out of school and will be graduating college soon.
1939
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Isn't moving to another district "school choice"
dermdoc
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BMX Bandit said:

look forward to the spin from posters that claim rural republicans don't want vouchers and are just too dimwitted to understand the ballot language
I do not think it is spin. They do not feel like they need vouchers as their public schools are not the cesspools urban area public schools are.

Interesting that I talked to a retired politician yesterday from a rural area. Very conservative. He has a friend running from the same rural area. The majority of his possible constituents are against vouchers according to him.
Says Abbott and the state GOP is only funding pro voucher candidates over all other issues.

Known this guy a long time so I take him at his word. Rural and urban public schools are totally different animals..
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Ellis Wyatt
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Burdizzo said:

Science Denier said:

Antoninus said:

aTmAg said:

This should be obvious to everybody.)
what is "obvious" is the you do not understand the meaning of the word "socialist."

not every policy that you dislike is "socialist." Not every bad policy is "socialist."


Taking from the rich and giving handouts to the "poor" is pretty much the definition of socialism.



So is funding a military that protects all citizens from our enemies, regardless of how much each citizen pays.
No, it isn't. The common defense is one of the few legitimate roles of government. Indoctrinating children with socialism, anti-Christian, and anti-American tenets is not. (I am not suggesting all schools do this)
ds00
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This is why I brought up how misguided many peoples understanding of Texas school funding is.
Logos Stick
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Assuming you are correct, big assumption, with choice we spend the same but...

- eliminate NCLB
- groups kids according to ability which improves learning
- get rid of zero tolerance
- eject children from the school who are disruptive
- implement the kind of discipline parents want
- force teachers to teach curriculum instead of sharing their personal lives
- ensure child's behavior is shared with parents and not hidden from them
- arm teachers

etc, etc, etc...


Sounds like win to me!
dBoy99
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AG
Most small towns only have 1 elementary, 1 MS, & 1 HS. If they have a private school it's likely a Catholic school that is PK thru 6.

So how do vouchers hurt rural schools?
aTmAg
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Antoninus said:

simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."
You fail to recognize that we already have a crap ton of inner city people who are unable to read, write, nor understand the issues. That is because our public system sucks. And that is because education is rivalrous and excludable and therefore it is GAURANTEED to suck when provided by government.

Just like SpaceX is way better at building rockets than NASA, and how China killed millions of people when they tried to supply food. The government sucks at some things. Education is one. We should get them out of it.

If you want more people to be able to read, write, and understand the issues then you should WANT the best education possible, and that means privatized education.
1939
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AG
If vouchers pass then why would private schools not just raise their rates so that only the people that can afford it now will be the only ones that can afford it then?
ds00
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Also in many districts, students can already move to a different public school district if theirs is failing. It's not nearly as restricted as in the 90's and 2000s
Phatbob
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Antoninus said:

simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."
No, no it is not. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of why a public good is a public good and not a normal private good. If it can be provided to a single individual without providing it to another individual, if it can be denied to a single individual without denying it to all individuals, then it is NOT a public good.

When things are NOT A PUBLIC GOOD, such as education, they follow economic tendencies. Bar none. You don't get to wish them away because there is a benefit to having educated citizens. There is a benefit to society to everyone growing their own food, but that doesn't make gardening a "public good".

You can't ignore the effects of markets just because you want them to be exempt.

aTmAg
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AG
Antoninus said:

aTmAg said:

Everybody should pay for the government resources they consume. If one person pays $1 for a service that benefits him $100, while another pays $1000 for a service that benefits him than $500, then that is also redistribution
a very nice, concise summary of aanarchocapitalism. As I said, you consider anything left of an AnCap to be "socialism."

It is a mind-numbingly simplistic way of looking at the world.
You apparently have no idea what anarchocapitalism is. Ironic that you are telling people to get a library card.


I'm not an anarchocapitalist. I think there should be government. Just that government should be limited to the things it's better at than the private sector. Which does NOT include education.
Antoninus
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Agthatbuilds said:

I'd submit that simply paying local taxes for local schools isn't socialism and is better defined as paying for necessary public goods.

Bur, forcing local taxpayers, because of the value of their property, to send their money to districts far across the state is a socialistic practice
How many miles must a dollar travel, to magically transform from funding a public good to funding socialism?

Two? Ten? Twenty-five?
twk
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Logos Stick said:

Assuming you are correct, big assumption, we spend the same but...

- eliminate NCLB
- groups kids according to ability which improves learning
- get rid of zero tolerance
- eject children from the school who are disruptive
- implement the kind of discipline parents want
- force teachers to teach curriculum instead of sharing their personal lives
- ensure child's behavior is shared with parents and not hidden from them
- arm teachers

etc, etc, etc...


Sounds like win to me!
All of those are good ideas for both public and private schools, but I don't see how vouchers play into that. I could be wrong, but my theory is that, either inflated tuition eats up all that money (in which case little changes), or, we end up with a dual school system, where your objectives might be carried out in the private sector, but not in the public.

What the Obama administration did regarding school discipline (effectively eliminating the possibility of disciplining minorities, lest they be denied federal money for discrimination) is criminal. That needs to change if the public schools have any hope of improvement. But, if we put more kids in private schools, and cast off the discipline problems to public schools, the only kids left in public schools will be the discipline problems, the kids whose parents don't care, and special needs kids. I don't think that is an improvement.
DX2011
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Booma94 said:

Agthatbuilds said:

My money should follow my kids. simple as that. If that's my local public school, great.

If that's the high school across town, great.

If that's a charter school, great.

If that's a private school, great.

My money should follow my truck, simple as that.

If that's the state highway I drive on to get to my town, great.

If that's the street into my neighborhood, great.

If that's the private road into my ranch, great.

The fact is that the money I pay in gas taxes should only fund the roads on which I drive.


If every truck drove on one road per year, your analogy would be applicable and I would absolutely agree.
Ellis Wyatt
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Quote:

\Yes in principle, however certain school districts keep putting the same bond up over and over again until the "representatives" of the school district get the yes vote they want. Unfortunately, that is how a broken system works. The only way to fix it is to vote the current representatives out of office.


And worse, they call anyone who opposes huge stadiums and other big government boondoggles "anti-education." Public education spends more and more money, teaches less and less, and has become increasingly hostile to people who point out the failures.

People in education believe that money belongs to them and throw wall-eyed fits when people challenge their stranglehold. Just more bureaucracy that exists to perpetuate itself and nothing else.
WT FOX
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1939 said:

If vouchers pass then why would private schools not just raise their rates so that only the people that can afford it now will be the only ones that can afford it then?


Even if that happened at least the some of the private school parents tax money would now benefit the school where their children attend.
Phatbob
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1939 said:

If vouchers pass then why would private schools not just raise their rates so that only the people that can afford it now will be the only ones that can afford it then?
This has been the argument for every state that has passed vouchers and it hasn't happened in any of them.
twk
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dBoy99 said:

Most small towns only have 1 elementary, 1 MS, & 1 HS. If they have a private school it's likely a Catholic school that is PK thru 6.

So how do vouchers hurt rural schools?
Read my post, above. It's not about losing rural kids to private schools.
harge57
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Antoninus said:

simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."
That is what is coming out of the public schools today.

 
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