No, I think there is an emotional attachment. I see it in my parents to their schools and to my school since they were both educators in the district.

But it was different times then than it is now.

I don't see it in my generation.


Regardless, emotional connections are not a reason to keep a potential system to address modern concerns away

Science Denier said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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I thought the most recent version of the voucher legislation was overly generous toward public schools from a funding standpoint. I wonder if the Ds and anti-choice Rs will end up regretting not playing ball.

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I thought the most recent voucher legislation was overly generous to program participants. 10k per child when most pay half or less that amount in taxes per household…phew.

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People don't stop paying property taxes after their children graduate.

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Correct. What's your point?

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That it's not true that most households pay half or less than $10k/child in taxes.

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You think most households pay $5k+ in property taxes?

A household with four children would receive $40k in vouchers. You think that household paid that much in property taxes? No. Even at one child equaling $10k, most households are not paying that much in propety taxes.

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Huh? Under the last proposal, the state would give approx. 6k per student. That is $24k, not $40k.

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The last iteration I remember had the amount at $10(+?)k, maybe I'm mistaken. The amount was based on a percentage of the average state wide funding per student. Regardless, $6k is still a high number for most.

And to comment on your reply above mine… It's not for everyone when there is:
1. Prioritization of eligibility
2. A maximum on dollars spent/program participants

Nor was it to be used for public schools.

But they have to take nearly all of them now

10andBOUNCE said:

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Bob Lee said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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How is single mom with crappy car that lives in a bad neighborhood getting her kids to the better school that is further away with no bus services?

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I don't know, but parents tend to get creative if their children will benefit from their efforts. My Dad drove me 45 minutes into town, and then back past our house 2 hrs. from my school, and then picked me up after work Every day until I got my driver's license so I could go to a great school.

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Sounds like you have some great parents. Sounds like they made some tough decisions and sacrificed for your betterment, all without vouchers.

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Right, but they had to pay for an education that I never received, and for resources like bus transportation that I never utilized. And then they also had to pay for the one I actually did receive. As a matter of justice, they should have been reimbursed.

Phatbob said:

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MaxPower said:

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My biggest beef with vouchers is that State law requires public schools to take students. That means when Billy's parents pay their $8k to a private school and then realize that school sucks or Billy gets kicked out for being an idiot then the local public school has to take that kid back. It's simply impossible for a local school to plan not knowing how many rejects they have to take after school starts.


I will be against school vouchers until the proposed bill requires parent accountability. That means if you take the cash and your kid can't cut it then your ass can find a way to home school your kid.

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Public schools can keep kids out, too. I've known of kids that get kicked out. It is a real thing, they just have a higher threshold for it.

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My wife had a kid steal a car, commit armed robbery, evade police in a car chase, and was back in her classroom two days later. How high is that threshold again?

oldag941 said:

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They actually do have "an escape". Typically, GT, on-ramp, AP, dual-credit and other pathways. Those are filled with successful and motivated students and families. That keeps them in the schools (by their choice) and keeps them connected to their community.

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What do you do for people who want to commune with people who share their values and beliefs, if the public schools are full of teachers and administrators who hate them and their values?

I'm in favor of school choice and vouchers because it personally benefits me financially.

Bob Lee said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Bob Lee said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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How is single mom with crappy car that lives in a bad neighborhood getting her kids to the better school that is further away with no bus services?

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I don't know, but parents tend to get creative if their children will benefit from their efforts. My Dad drove me 45 minutes into town, and then back past our house 2 hrs. from my school, and then picked me up after work Every day until I got my driver's license so I could go to a great school.

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Sounds like you have some great parents. Sounds like they made some tough decisions and sacrificed for your betterment, all without vouchers.

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Right, but they had to pay for an education that I never received, and for resources like bus transportation that I never utilized. And then they also had to pay for the one I actually did receive. As a matter of justice, they should have been reimbursed.

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Alright, let's play the "I never used public schooling reparations" game.

It might, if you don't make too much. State doesn't have unlimited funds for everyone.

I've come to learn that TexAgs is not somewhere where you should expect to convince somebody with a differing opinion to agree with you. It never seems to happen. Everybody has their opinion and everybody is correct 100% of the time. Just a general observation of the boards.

I think vouchers are coming. I think the more important question is what does that mean? What type of program? Will it provide better outcomes for students? What will it cost taxpayers? Will it really provide competition, Like some profess it should? What will be the impact on public education? With 5 million publicly educated students in Texas, the vast majority will remain in public education. What is their future like? How will those systems be impacted and the subsequent impact on students? Impact on communities?

What will the impact be to the teaching industry? If 1 million kids in the state go to private schools, do those associated teachers follow them? What about the teachers left teaching the 4 million students? Same question no matter the number. What type of career is that and is it one that will have a pipeline and provide a profession and competitive salary?

Many of these things will not be answered until we see details of legislation, and even then, won't be answered until somewhere down the line. Time will tell.

outofstateaggie said:

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Phatbob said:

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MaxPower said:

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My biggest beef with vouchers is that State law requires public schools to take students. That means when Billy's parents pay their $8k to a private school and then realize that school sucks or Billy gets kicked out for being an idiot then the local public school has to take that kid back. It's simply impossible for a local school to plan not knowing how many rejects they have to take after school starts.


I will be against school vouchers until the proposed bill requires parent accountability. That means if you take the cash and your kid can't cut it then your ass can find a way to home school your kid.

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Public schools can keep kids out, too. I've known of kids that get kicked out. It is a real thing, they just have a higher threshold for it.

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My wife had a kid steal a car, commit armed robbery, evade police in a car chase, and was back in her classroom two days later. How high is that threshold again?

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Well, none of those things involved school activities, so obviously the threshold requires the infractions be school related... Still doesn't negate the fact that they exist, or the fact that public schools maybe need to keep those kids out... you know... run differently. And maybe you as a parent should have the ability to choose a school to send your kid to that... runs differently.

Voucher will not meet the expectations of most.

They go to a school with like minds, religion, etc. just like they can today.

oldag941 said:

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I guess regulation, accountability and protection of tax dollars makes it different than tvs or cellphones. Tax dollars are funding this. So having some understanding of success or failure of those tax dollars is typically expected.

Of course arguments about the "how" and tools to do so.

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So are you for privatization?

agAngeldad said:

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Voucher will not meet the expectations of most.

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If it does the following, and it will, it will be a huge success and meet expectations!


- eliminate NCLB
- groups kids according to ability which improves learning
- get rid of zero tolerance
- eject children from the school who are disruptive
- implement the kind of discipline parents want
- force teachers to teach curriculum instead of sharing their personal lives
- ensure child's behavior is shared with parents and not hidden from them
- eliminate social promotion
- eliminate liberal indoctrination
- arm teachers

10andBOUNCE said:

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Bob Lee said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Bob Lee said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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How is single mom with crappy car that lives in a bad neighborhood getting her kids to the better school that is further away with no bus services?

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I don't know, but parents tend to get creative if their children will benefit from their efforts. My Dad drove me 45 minutes into town, and then back past our house 2 hrs. from my school, and then picked me up after work Every day until I got my driver's license so I could go to a great school.

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Sounds like you have some great parents. Sounds like they made some tough decisions and sacrificed for your betterment, all without vouchers.

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Right, but they had to pay for an education that I never received, and for resources like bus transportation that I never utilized. And then they also had to pay for the one I actually did receive. As a matter of justice, they should have been reimbursed.

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Alright, let's play the "I never used public schooling reparations" game.

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Scoffers response. If you want to call reimbursement or vouchers, reparations, I don't really care. It's easily defensible, and reasonable.

I guess I just have never experienced that. I have two kids in public school, one in high school and one in junior high. They both have come through public school since kindergarten. I would say that surrounding yourself with people that have the same values and similar beliefs as yourself, tends to speak more to the community you live in. As I stated before, your school is a reflection of that community. We are very social, and spend a lot of time with a lot of families within our community. And that's within a six a level high school community. there is obvious diversity of opinion and probably some differences in values, but these are our people. Our kids all hang out together in school through football and basketball and cheer and service league and church. I have never encountered a teacher that hates us or our kids. in any of the three public schools we have attended. Our kids along with most of the ones we hang with are all very successful and have or plan to attend four year universities. That includes everything from Tech to A&M to Ivy Leagues. . I have simply never seen the bogeyman that is always referenced with public education.

As someone who lives in an area with no private schools, my question is "will they allow you to take your vouchers to a neighboring, quality school and will that district be required to accept your kids?"

10andBOUNCE said:

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aTmAg said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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cevans_40 said:

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WT FOX said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Logos Stick said:

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cevans_40 said:

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aTmAg said:

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cevans_40 said:

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richardag said:

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TheCurl84 said:

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I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.

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I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.

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Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.

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There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.

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Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

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That makes no sense.

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I understand, as a college educated and, likely, highly involved parent, this is hard to grasp but there is a huge group of people who couldn't care less about the quality of their child's education. They just want them to be passed along and graduate. The STAAR test is the main obstacle in their way currently and you can be sure that if vouchers are passed, schools will open that remove that roadblock.

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You do realize that elite private schools have standardized testing, right? They also have rigorous testing to be admitted.

My kids have never stepped foot in a public school, take standardized testing every April, and have since Kindergarten. Over half of their class is in the top 95% of test takers.

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Here we go again.

Now do over half of the population who doesn't care about educating their kids.

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These exact same kids are already failing to thrive. The public school is moving these kids along without giving two craps about their scores. And the worst part is that kids whose parents DO care but happen to be zoned with these kids have no feasible escape. In the voucher program, the parents who don't care will continue not to care and those kids will continue to fail. But the parents who DO care will be able to get their kids away from these bad schools and bad influences.

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Parents that care can get their kids away from bad schools and influences today.

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It's way harder than it would be under a voucher system. For example:

Quote:

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Generally, a child must attend the school district where they reside. The school district administrators can use transfer agreements to allow students to attend school districts other than the one in which they reside. A parent asking the district to make such an allowance must present good cause as to why their son or daughter needs to be in one school district versus the other. The student's best interests and academic performance are primary concerns. The issues over mask mandates and diversity training might not be sufficient to convince administrators to allow a district change. Larger districts with more options to move students around may be more amenable to these requests. A common request is to keep a child in the school in which they are currently enrolled despite a recent move that might be within the district or close by where it is determined an allowance is reasonable.

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So screw the hell out of that.

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So why not just fix some of that garbage that is already out there to create more freedom versus keeping the garbage and adding another government program?

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We aren't "adding another program". We are replacing a big government program with another more free market one.

They probably won't be forced to accept your kid if there's no space.

That's how it is today, I believe.

Logos Stick said:

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agAngeldad said:

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Voucher will not meet the expectations of most.

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If it does the following, and it will, it will be a huge success and meet expectations!


- eliminate NCLB
- groups kids according to ability which improves learning
- get rid of zero tolerance
- eject children from the school who are disruptive
- implement the kind of discipline parents want
- force teachers to teach curriculum instead of sharing their personal lives
- ensure child's behavior is shared with parents and not hidden from them
- eliminate social promotion
- eliminate liberal indoctrination
- arm teachers

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Your list would only be for private schools. Public/Charter schools will still have your list above. 6K, if that is the cost, will still leave a balance of 15K for private schools at the HS level. BTW, state has not addressed how M & O and INS money will flow.

MD20/20 said:

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As someone who lives in an area with no private schools, my question is "will they allow you to take your vouchers to a neighboring, quality school and will that district be required to accept your kids?"

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The last legislation would not allow for this; the vouchers could not be used for public schooling.

What existing government program is being replaced and exiting stage left?

oldag941 said:

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I guess I just have never experienced that. I have two kids in public school, one in high school and one in junior high. They both have come through public school since kindergarten. I would say that surrounding yourself with people that have the same values and similar beliefs as yourself, tends to speak more to the community you live in. As I stated before, your school is a reflection of that community. We are very social, and spend a lot of time with a lot of families within our community. And that's within a six a level high school community. there is obvious diversity of opinion and probably some differences in values, but these are our people. Our kids all hang out together in school through football and basketball and cheer and service league and church. I have never encountered a teacher that hates us or our kids. in any of the three public schools we have attended. Our kids along with most of the ones we hang with are all very successful and have or plan to attend four year universities. That includes everything from Tech to A&M to Ivy Leagues. . I have simply never seen the bogeyman that is always referenced with public education.

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No one has ever said there are not good things that come out of public schools. It is just the worst possible way to run a system.

Even with vouchers, there will still be a lot of people who choose public schools. Vouchers are also not the boogeyman and the experiences you have often also happen at private schools. It's about how having a choice changes the incentives of the system to improve.

oldag941 said:

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I guess I just have never experienced that. I have two kids in public school, one in high school and one in junior high. They both have come through public school since kindergarten. I would say that surrounding yourself with people that have the same values and similar beliefs as yourself, tends to speak more to the community you live in. As I stated before, your school is a reflection of that community. We are very social, and spend a lot of time with a lot of families within our community. And that's within a six a level high school community. there is obvious diversity of opinion and probably some differences in values, but these are our people. Our kids all hang out together in school through football and basketball and cheer and service league and church. I have never encountered a teacher that hates us or our kids. in any of the three public schools we have attended. Our kids along with most of the ones we hang with are all very successful and have or plan to attend four year universities. That includes everything from Tech to A&M to Ivy Leagues. . I have simply never seen the bogeyman that is always referenced with public education.

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We interact with people whose kids are in public school, but not at the public school, and just those people with whom we choose to interact. We have a lot of friends in public school, and we even go to some of the public school events if I think there's value in it. For the most part though, our community is made up of families whose kids also do not attend public schools.

It sounds like you don't have any reason to change your current situation, but then you shouldn't begrudge others who judge that a change will benefit their children greatly.

Eta: for us personally, we try (and fail horrifically all the time) to center our lives around the liturgical calendar. And there are certain cultural things we want to hand down to our children that aren't always in tune with either the public school calendar, or just things they do in public school generally. We try to tailor our children's formal education to be in line with all that.

ThunderCougarFalconBird said:

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I'm in favor of school choice and vouchers because it personally benefits me financially.

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I'm curious how you are sure it will benefit you individually?

I'll admit I'm not the smartest gal around. My only issue with vouchers has always been this:

Why even have vouchers at all? Instead of issuing vouchers to use MY money to follow MY kid, the government should just cut taxes.

I don't want to pay taxes and then get a voucher to use somewhere else. I just want to keep ALL of my tax money in the first place and then spend my money wherever I want. Take out the middle man and voucher all together.

This is where I must be dumb, but it seems like big brother still has his grubby hands on my money and I want them out of my pockets

10Aggie10 said:

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I'll admit I'm not the smartest gal around. My only issue with vouchers has always been this:

Why even have vouchers at all? Instead of issuing vouchers to use MY money to follow MY kid, the government should just cut taxes.

I don't want to pay taxes and then get a voucher to use somewhere else. I just want to keep ALL of my tax money in the first place and then spend my money wherever I want. Take out the middle man and voucher all together.

This is where I must be dumb, but it seems like big brother still has his grubby hands on my money and I want them out of my pockets

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You are spot on and I've been screaming this from the get go. We need to eliminate propety taxes.

People are under the impression that once they pay taxes it's still their money. Nope. And if the government decides to give any back, it'll come with strings.

Ma'am you are not dumb. Your plan is the correct way forward.

I don't begrudge choices made. I just don't want it to negatively impact our school that they leave. For the tax revenue that follows one kid to private, the expenses don't decrease, not at nearly the same drop as revenue. So we are left with less funding and same expenses. That's the impact to our neighborhood or community. Whether we stay or not. Again. I don't begrudge anyone that goes private, makes a different choice, voucher or not. It just the impact it leaves on us. I'm sure the state will figure it out.

I appreciate your opinion and it's an important and valid one.

But, I like vouchers because it is a student/family focused policy as opposed to a school/isd focused one.

It will forces some changes in isd that are probably needed now. I could imagine isds dropping bloated beaurocracy like dei departments in an effort to reduce costs.

I like it because it allows people to vote with their money where the best place is for their student and family.

And, in smaller rural districts, I don't think much will change. There's not much of a choice in those anyway

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Science Denier said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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I thought the most recent version of the voucher legislation was overly generous toward public schools from a funding standpoint. I wonder if the Ds and anti-choice Rs will end up regretting not playing ball.

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I thought the most recent voucher legislation was overly generous to program participants. 10k per child when most pay half or less that amount in taxes per household…phew.

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People don't stop paying property taxes after their children graduate.

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Correct. What's your point?

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That it's not true that most households pay half or less than $10k/child in taxes.

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You think most households pay $5k+ in property taxes?

A household with four children would receive $40k in vouchers. You think that household paid that much in property taxes? No. Even at one child equaling $10k, most households are not paying that much in propety taxes.

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Huh? Under the last proposal, the state would give approx. 6k per student. That is $24k, not $40k.

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The last iteration I remember had the amount at $10(+?)k, maybe I'm mistaken. The amount was based on a percentage of the average state wide funding per student. Regardless, $6k is still a high number for most.

And to comment on your reply above mine… It's not for everyone when there is:
1. Prioritization of eligibility
2. A maximum on dollars spent/program participants

Nor was it to be used for public schools.

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Well, I put this on another thread concerning funding.

Right now, the state doesn't give anyone money if a kid is enrolled in a private school. Kid is not enrolled in public school, so the state funding is zero.

So, assuming these kids stay in private school, the state will have to start paying under the voucher system.

That will require a tax increase unless they somehow void credits to anyone who was in private school before 2025.

I'm no expert in how schools are funded but I'm gettin there with all the reading I've done on it.

Burdizzo said:

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Assessment is frozen. Tax rates are not. Not the same thing.

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Maybe we're talking about the same thing, maybe not.

I'll simplify it, the dollars you pay in the form of taxes to the school district will never increase, it's frozen at the exact dollar amount you turn 65. Call it what you want. Bottom line is if the senior applied and received the tax freeze exemption, their out of pocket is not going up regardless of the rates that are voted on and passed.

Don't believe me, here's Plano ISD telling you what's needed on their bond page.

https://www.pisd.edu/Page/28790

It's technically a ceiling and not a freeze. Taxes can go down should rates or values drop sufficiently but they cannot exceed the amount when the ceiling is established.

agAngeldad said:

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Logos Stick said:

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agAngeldad said:

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Voucher will not meet the expectations of most.

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If it does the following, and it will, it will be a huge success and meet expectations!


- eliminate NCLB
- groups kids according to ability which improves learning
- get rid of zero tolerance
- eject children from the school who are disruptive
- implement the kind of discipline parents want
- force teachers to teach curriculum instead of sharing their personal lives
- ensure child's behavior is shared with parents and not hidden from them
- eliminate social promotion
- eliminate liberal indoctrination
- arm teachers

---

Your list would only be for private schools. Public/Charter schools will still have your list above. 6K, if that is the cost, will still leave a balance of 15K for private schools at the HS level. BTW, state has not addressed how M & O and INS money will flow.

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I know that. We are talking about privatization here. That's the primary reason for vouchers.

Here are the numbers:

"The average private school tuition in Texas is $10,979 per year (2024). The private elementary school average tuition cost is $10,663 per year and the private high school average is $12,064 per year."

https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/texas


That site has every private school in the state listed.


The bill last year gave around $8k for vouchers.