Anti-voucher RINOs get their assess kicked.

22,457 Views | 448 Replies | Last: 3 mo ago by Burdizzo
richardag
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Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

Burdizzo said:

Science Denier said:

Antoninus said:

aTmAg said:

This should be obvious to everybody.)
what is "obvious" is the you do not understand the meaning of the word "socialist."

not every policy that you dislike is "socialist." Not every bad policy is "socialist."
Taking from the rich and giving handouts to the "poor" is pretty much the definition of socialism.
So is funding a military that protects all citizens from our enemies, regardless of how much each citizen pays.
Not really. It irks me how people can call basic government functions (that have been present in almost all forms of government in human history) "socialism".
socialism /ssh-lzm/

noun
[ol]
  • Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
  • The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which the means of production are collectively owned but a completely classless society has not yet been achieved.
  • A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See communism, Fourierism, saint-simonianism, forms of socialism.
  • [/ol]The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition More at Wordnik
    Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
    Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
    schmellba99
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    angus55 said:

    aTmAg said:

    angus55 said:

    BMX Bandit said:

    look forward to the spin from posters that claim rural republicans don't want vouchers and are just too dimwitted to understand the ballot language


    Looking forward to how you keep rural schools funded when one of your primary mechanisms is still Robin Hood. Secondly will these vouchers be accepted by private schools. I know some don't because they know strings will be stretched. But you don't hear that. You think the bureaucrats are going sit idly by?
    Robin Hood is a socialist abomination. It should have never existed and is only supported by the economically ignorant.


    That is my point. We can't even fix that crap to fund schools correctly.
    Schools should be funded by those within the boundaries of the ISD, it isn't hard to do.
    sam callahan
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    The people most unhappy with public schools are the public school teachers. They are just misguided on how they can be fixed.
    outofstateaggie
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    sam callahan said:

    Quote:

    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.


    The system can't replace positive parent involvement


    The system that has been created allows zero accountability for crappy parenting.

    Again, people want to blame the "failing schools," but completely ignore the students, their families, and campus communities. That's the failing that needs to be addressed. There is absolutely zero accountability on those groups. Ignoring that isn't going to fix a damn thing.
    cevans_40
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    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    That makes no sense.
    I understand, as a college educated and, likely, highly involved parent, this is hard to grasp but there is a huge group of people who couldn't care less about the quality of their child's education. They just want them to be passed along and graduate. The STAAR test is the main obstacle in their way currently and you can be sure that if vouchers are passed, schools will open that remove that roadblock.
    Burdizzo
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    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    Burdizzo said:

    aTmAg said:

    Burdizzo said:

    Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

    I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

    With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.
    Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?
    What determines if the car, TV, cell phone, etc. you are about to buy is good? What about doctor, lawyer, child care, etc? Weird how people are able to figure this out in every other industry. Why do you guys think schools would be any different?
    Let me know where I can find an unbiased Consumer Reports for schools.
    It doesn't exist today, because there is no point to it. People can't swap schools anyway. But notice that there are tons of reports on colleges? The same would happen in a school system where people can choose.
    I always wonder how we get so many new kids coming to our school without moving when they can't swap schools


    San Antonio ISD has had declining enrollment for several decades. Mexicans must have stopped having kids.
    Logos Stick
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    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.

    That makes no sense.

    The fact that 50% go to college is the statistical sample. If they do as well as students from public school then we have to logically infer that the 50% who did not attend college got the same quality education as those that did attend college.

    edited
    schmellba99
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    Booma94 said:

    Agthatbuilds said:

    Yes, as a tax paying member of a district that is sending 72 million dollars back to Texas, I totally find no flaws that im personally paying higher taxes to fund school districts far away from my location.

    It'd be nice to give the teachers a raise and I bet 72 million would cover it. But we need to raise the taxes to provide such a lift.

    Frankly, I'm tired of the education racket. It's always more money. It's always more resources. More more more more. And the results get worse and worse and worse


    Except that it's not always more money. Schools are being funded at the same rate they were in 2019.

    And the results aren't getting worse and worse but since you're told by voucher proponents that the sky is falling, then by God the sky must be falling.
    Now throw in the bonds that each district puts forth and gets passed.

    Bottom line - it is always more money and schools have found other ways to increase the funding beyond what the tax rate and state provide/steal and give to other districts.
    cevans_40
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    sam callahan said:

    The people most unhappy with public schools are the public school teachers. They are just misguided on how they can be fixed.
    Booma94
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    Tumble Weed said:

    If people were happy with the results of a public school system, vouchers would never have a chance.

    Many parents are not happy with the product, and have watched the system fail. Because we value a high-quality education, we are looking at other options. I don't have a dog in this fight anymore as both of my kids have graduated from college. I am supporting vouchers based on my personal experience as a parent with College Station ISD.

    Private colleges have not put public universities out of business. Some public universities still provide value. Some public high schools will continue to do the same.
    Surveys say most people ARE generally happy with the performance of their schools, especially in rural areas. Voucher proponents use a handful of struggling inner-city schools and schools in urban areas as their justification for the "need" for vouchers. If it weren't for a vocal faction of those in control (like Greg Abbott and his supporters) pushing for-profit schools and tax breaks for his friends there would not be a huge groundswell of people pushing for vouchers.
    Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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    Sounds like a business opportunity.
    If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
    Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.

    That makes no sense.

    The fact that 50% go to college is the statistical sample. If they do as well as students from public school then we have to logically infer that the 50% who did not attend college got the same quality education as those that did attend college.

    edited
    Why would college be the measuring stick? Too many are going to college and getting worthless degrees.
    If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
    sam callahan
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    Follow any of the teacher personality social medias - more than half their content complains about the system. They all quit and then rag on people who choose something other than public schools.
    Logos Stick
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    Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.

    That makes no sense.

    The fact that 50% go to college is the statistical sample. If they do as well as students from public school then we have to logically infer that the 50% who did not attend college got the same quality education as those that did attend college.

    edited
    Why would college be the measuring stick? Too many are going to college and getting worthless degrees.

    Irrelevant.

    You are using the SAT/ACT scores to compare the quality of education between a public school and private school.
    richardag
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    ds00 said:

    No way a private school that costs $12,000/year lets in all the kids with $12,000 coming from the state. They will raise rates considerably. The reason they exist in many cases is to keep those kids out.
    Could be, alternatively those kids that need to be failed will be failed, those kids that are disruptive will be suspended or banned.
    Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
    Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
    cevans_40
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    AG
    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.

    That makes no sense.

    The fact that 50% go to college is the statistical sample. If they do as well as students from public school then we have to logically infer that the 50% who did not attend college got the same quality education as those that did attend college.

    edited
    In Texas, 59 percent of public and nonpublic high school graduates in the class of 2021 took the SAT, and 23 percent took the ACT. Across the United States, 40 percent of graduates took the SAT, and 35 percent took the ACT

    I don't believe our district gets to the state average. I don't understand where you are confused? I am just saying that there are plenty of students who have no desire to attend college and just want to enter the workforce. They, and their parents, don't value an education and would most certainly take an easier path should it be an option.
    cevans_40
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    richardag said:

    ds00 said:

    No way a private school that costs $12,000/year lets in all the kids with $12,000 coming from the state. They will raise rates considerably. The reason they exist in many cases is to keep those kids out.
    Could be, alternatively those kids that need to be failed will be failed, those kids that are disruptive will be suspended or banned.
    Nope. They will just remain in public schools.
    cevans_40
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    sam callahan said:

    Follow any of the teacher personality social medias - more than half their content complains about the system. They all quit and then rag on people who choose something other than public schools.
    So the 1-2% that are constantly *****ing and moaning about everything are the norm? How in the world are public schools still functioning with no teachers?
    Logos Stick
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    cevans_40 said:

    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.

    That makes no sense.

    The fact that 50% go to college is the statistical sample. If they do as well as students from public school then we have to logically infer that the 50% who did not attend college got the same quality education as those that did attend college.

    edited
    In Texas, 59 percent of public and nonpublic high school graduates in the class of 2021 took the SAT, and 23 percent took the ACT. Across the United States, 40 percent of graduates took the SAT, and 35 percent took the ACT

    I don't believe our district gets to the state average. I don't understand where you are confused? I am just saying that there are plenty of students who have no desire to attend college and just want to enter the workforce. They, and their parents, don't value an education and would most certainly take an easier path should it be an option.

    I'm not confused. You claim those scores cant be used as a measuring stick and there is no insight for the private school quality of education because half don't go to college.

    Statistics and logical inference proves otherwise.
    aTmAg
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    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    Burdizzo said:

    aTmAg said:

    Burdizzo said:

    Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

    I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

    With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.
    Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?
    What determines if the car, TV, cell phone, etc. you are about to buy is good? What about doctor, lawyer, child care, etc? Weird how people are able to figure this out in every other industry. Why do you guys think schools would be any different?
    Let me know where I can find an unbiased Consumer Reports for schools.
    It doesn't exist today, because there is no point to it. People can't swap schools anyway. But notice that there are tons of reports on colleges? The same would happen in a school system where people can choose.
    I always wonder how we get so many new kids coming to our school without moving when they can't swap schools
    You would get a LOT more if it was as easy as it should be. It's a pain in the ass compared to that.
    richardag
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    Ag87H2O said:

    twk said:

    Ag87H2O said:

    Burdizzo said:

    Science Denier said:

    Antoninus said:

    aTmAg said:

    This should be obvious to everybody.)
    what is "obvious" is the you do not understand the meaning of the word "socialist."

    not every policy that you dislike is "socialist." Not every bad policy is "socialist."


    Taking from the rich and giving handouts to the "poor" is pretty much the definition of socialism.



    So is funding a military that protects all citizens from our enemies, regardless of how much each citizen pays.
    Providing for the national defense is a Constitutional duty of the federal government. Nice try.
    Providing a free and efficient system of public education is a constitutional duty of the State of Texas. Something that a bunch of farmers (not socialists) wrote into our constitution in 1876.
    There's nothing free about it. Every dime comes from taxpayers. I wouldn't call it efficient either.

    The state can choose to make vouchers part of that system and still live up to their constitutional duty.
    Agreed. The individual pays into the state by their taxes. Then the state allows the individual vouchers for their children. Then the state contributes that money to the school.
    Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
    Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
    aTmAg
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    Howdy, it is me! said:

    aTmAg said:

    Maroon Elephant said:

    aTmAg said:

    angus55 said:

    BMX Bandit said:

    look forward to the spin from posters that claim rural republicans don't want vouchers and are just too dimwitted to understand the ballot language


    Looking forward to how you keep rural schools funded when one of your primary mechanisms is still Robin Hood. Secondly will these vouchers be accepted by private schools. I know some don't because they know strings will be stretched. But you don't hear that. You think the bureaucrats are going sit idly by?
    Robin Hood is a socialist abomination. It should have never existed and is only supported by the economically ignorant.
    Robinhood is actually the primary culprit here. I'm a Republican and I am against school vouchers, however, their appeal to voters is the end result of the long term damage that has been done by Robinhood. We live in a really great school district where people pay a ton in taxes. However, we are having to do layoffs and cut costs all over because our district doesn't get to keep its money. We have to send it to the poverty pimps in Austin under the guise of "equity."
    A big reason to support vouchers today, that didn't exist a decade ago is the overt wokeness. With vouchers, if you go into your kids school, and there is a bunch of woke crap all over the walls, you can easily nope your kid right out of there.


    If you have an accessible school that you can afford that accepts your child. Which happens to be the exact situation today, without vouchers.


    I hope you realize:
    1. Not everyone will receive a voucher
    2. A voucher alone won't cover all the costs to send your child to public school in most cases
    3. A voucher isn't only "your" money that you're receiving back
    4. You still have to have a private school accessible to you
    5. Your child still has to be accepted to said school
    6. Your child will have to pass a standardized test to remain in the voucher program
    Can you predict the future? Now that we have fewer RINOs in the way, you have no idea what voucher law we can pass. I can comment on how it SHOULD be:

    Obviously pure privatization would be best. But if that is not achievable, then a voucher system where EVERYBODY gets one, the voucher alone covers the cost, and the voucher can be spent at private schools.
    Burdizzo
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    outofstateaggie said:

    sam callahan said:

    Quote:

    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.


    The system can't replace positive parent involvement


    The system that has been created allows zero accountability for crappy parenting.

    Again, people want to blame the "failing schools," but completely ignore the students, their families, and campus communities. That's the failing that needs to be addressed. There is absolutely zero accountability on those groups. Ignoring that isn't going to fix a damn thing.



    You have hit on something that is a very real problem, and that is mission creep for the public education system.

    It used to be that we expected schools to teach basic reading, writing, and communication skills, basic math skills, basic understand of science, government, and history.

    Now we mandate foreign languages, vocational courses, fine arts, and numerous other extracurricular activities. It used to be that we served a basic lunch, which actually made some sense, but now we serve breakfast (because parents can't bring their kids to school ready to learn), and some schools provide meals during the summer break. We have counselors who hold the hands of the parents and kids to get them into college because somehow they never learned to motivate themselves, set goals, and do their own research during the previous 12 years. And we do all this without giving teachers the authority to discipline our shty kids.

    But please.give me a voucher so I can send my shty kid to your private school.
    aTmAg
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    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.
    When people have no choice, then care much less. When they gain choice, they will care much worse.


    And like I already said, there is every interest in the world for a school to prove that it's good. Just like very other industry.
    cevans_40
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    AG
    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.
    When people have no choice, then care much less. When they gain choice, they will care much worse.


    And like I already said, there is every interest in the world for a school to prove that it's good. Just like very other industry.
    Ever heard of the TEA rating system?
    aTmAg
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    AG
    And obviously, we should eliminate all welfare programs. Nothing gets people (including parents) to care more, then going hungry.
    aTmAg
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    AG
    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.
    When people have no choice, then care much less. When they gain choice, they will care much worse.


    And like I already said, there is every interest in the world for a school to prove that it's good. Just like very other industry.
    Ever heard of the TEA rating system?
    What does that have to do with anything I said? I'm answering the question on how customers would know if particular private schools are good.
    WT FOX
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    cevans_40 said:

    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    That makes no sense.
    I understand, as a college educated and, likely, highly involved parent, this is hard to grasp but there is a huge group of people who couldn't care less about the quality of their child's education. They just want them to be passed along and graduate. The STAAR test is the main obstacle in their way currently and you can be sure that if vouchers are passed, schools will open that remove that roadblock.
    You do realize that elite private schools have standardized testing, right? They also have rigorous testing to be admitted.

    My kids have never stepped foot in a public school, take standardized testing every April, and have since Kindergarten. Over half of their class is in the top 95% of test takers.
    cevans_40
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    AG
    WT FOX said:

    cevans_40 said:

    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    That makes no sense.
    I understand, as a college educated and, likely, highly involved parent, this is hard to grasp but there is a huge group of people who couldn't care less about the quality of their child's education. They just want them to be passed along and graduate. The STAAR test is the main obstacle in their way currently and you can be sure that if vouchers are passed, schools will open that remove that roadblock.
    You do realize that elite private schools have standardized testing, right? They also have rigorous testing to be admitted.

    My kids have never stepped foot in a public school, take standardized testing every April, and have since Kindergarten. Over half of their class is in the top 95% of test takers.
    Here we go again.

    Now do over half of the population who doesn't care about educating their kids.
    schmellba99
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    AG
    angus55 said:

    Agthatbuilds said:

    My money should follow my kids. simple as that. If that's my local public school, great.

    If that's the high school across town, great.

    If that's a charter school, great.

    If that's a private school, great.



    If I don't have kids in school give me my money back, great
    Awesome.

    Now, don't partake in any goods and services in your area that are provided by the kids that go through the school district either. Don't patronize any businesses that hire kids that don't go to college, etc. I mean, you shouldn't get any benefit if you aren't paying, right?

    Schools and educating kids have to get paid for, and whether you think it is socialist or not, the bottom line is that society in general benefits significantly from an educated populace.

    But that doesn't mean that the state should be 100% in charge and control of the education system, which is all the argument for vouchers really is - it promotes competition in an education system that desperately needs competition, not only to raise the bar but to push costs down. Because that is exactly what competition in a free market does.

    Yet people are absolutely terrified of that same principle - that they love when they go to Home Depot or Wal Mart or wherever and instead of paying $2000 for that 60" flat screen like we did 10 years ago, are now paying $500 for it. But in schools, for whatever reason, they are brainwashed into thinking the same exact principles somehow are evil and won't work.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with parents of kids that are currently going through the education system to have more power and more input - through the one thing that all education systems value the most - their money - and have more freedom in determining which school their child is educated at. Hell, they are really the ones that have th most skin in the game as it is, because 99.999% of people that don't have kids in the district DGAF about much district associated, at least until taxes roll around anyway. There is also nothing wrong with the idea that, because we all benefit from educating the younger generations, that everybody pays into the eduation system.

    What everybody should want is an education system that pushes to raise the bar, not lower it, and that is forced to operate in the same manner that a business would - cut costs, cut redundant and useless over head, get rid of properties that aren't being used that the district could sell off, quit building hundred million dollar football stadiums, etc. Because as it is right now, most school districts have absolutely zero incentive to operate with any efficiency - zero. If they need more money, they raise their tax rate or issue a bond. I guarantee you that I could go into any district and within probably 2 or 3 hours identfy a dozen or more positions that could be eiliminated from the administrative side, all of whom cost the distric in excess of $100k a year when you account for salary, insurance, benefits, etc.

    Good schools should be rewarded for being good, and poor schools should either realize that they need to become a good school if they want to compete. Administrator pay should be tied to kids coming and going to some degree instead of just bigass paychecks for superintendents.

    Amazing, I know.
    WT FOX
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    cevans_40 said:

    WT FOX said:

    cevans_40 said:

    Logos Stick said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    That makes no sense.
    I understand, as a college educated and, likely, highly involved parent, this is hard to grasp but there is a huge group of people who couldn't care less about the quality of their child's education. They just want them to be passed along and graduate. The STAAR test is the main obstacle in their way currently and you can be sure that if vouchers are passed, schools will open that remove that roadblock.
    You do realize that elite private schools have standardized testing, right? They also have rigorous testing to be admitted.

    My kids have never stepped foot in a public school, take standardized testing every April, and have since Kindergarten. Over half of their class is in the top 95% of test takers.
    Here we go again.

    Now do over half of the population who doesn't care about educating their kids.
    **** them! I am tired of paying public schools to babysit anyway. The free market is always the answer. You get all the food, healthcare, and education that you can pay for.
    cevans_40
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.
    When people have no choice, then care much less. When they gain choice, they will care much worse.


    And like I already said, there is every interest in the world for a school to prove that it's good. Just like very other industry.
    Ever heard of the TEA rating system?
    What does that have to do with anything I said? I'm answering the question on how customers would know if particular private schools are good.
    Knowing whether a school is good or not is simple. Caring is another. If the voucher system does not force some sort of oversight on all schools receiving funds, there will be a host of schools who take money but teach little to nothing.
    Fenrir
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    Why is that an argument for or against this? Those people aren't going to give a **** regardless. Are you going to beat them over the head with a club until they care? Are those people that don't care about their kids going to go through the effort to put their kids in a private school? How does that benefit someone that doesn't care about their kids?
    oldag941
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    AG
    But those regulations and requirements will follow the tax dollars. They always do. Whether it's when we start this program or later on, people will want some level of accountability and regulation of the entity that their tax dollars are going to. Definitions of those two terms are varied, But tax dollars rarely go anywhere without any strings attached, over time.
    WT FOX
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    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    aTmAg said:

    cevans_40 said:

    richardag said:

    TheCurl84 said:

    I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.
    I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
    Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.
    Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.
    There is already standardized tests like the SAT that high schools can be compared with.

    And there is every interest in the world for schools to prove to customers that they are good. So lower grade schools will administer standardized tests to their students to prove it.


    Not to mention, it's pretty damned easy to look at your kids homework and tests, to see if the material is worth a damn.
    Ok cool. Now do half of the population who doesn't care about their kids education.

    Over 60% of our graduates don't even take the SAT or ACT.
    When people have no choice, then care much less. When they gain choice, they will care much worse.


    And like I already said, there is every interest in the world for a school to prove that it's good. Just like very other industry.
    Ever heard of the TEA rating system?
    What does that have to do with anything I said? I'm answering the question on how customers would know if particular private schools are good.
    Knowing whether a school is good or not is simple. Caring is another. If the voucher system does not force some sort of oversight on all schools receiving funds, there will be a host of schools who take money but teach little to nothing.
    You convinced me. Stop paying for public education through taxation. You've solved the problem of taking money to not educate. Only those who care and can afford it will educate their children.
     
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