Science Denier said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Science Denier said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Bob Lee said:

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I thought the most recent version of the voucher legislation was overly generous toward public schools from a funding standpoint. I wonder if the Ds and anti-choice Rs will end up regretting not playing ball.

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I thought the most recent voucher legislation was overly generous to program participants. 10k per child when most pay half or less that amount in taxes per household…phew.

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People don't stop paying property taxes after their children graduate.

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Correct. What's your point?

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That it's not true that most households pay half or less than $10k/child in taxes.

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You think most households pay $5k+ in property taxes?

A household with four children would receive $40k in vouchers. You think that household paid that much in property taxes? No. Even at one child equaling $10k, most households are not paying that much in propety taxes.

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Huh? Under the last proposal, the state would give approx. 6k per student. That is $24k, not $40k.

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The last iteration I remember had the amount at $10(+?)k, maybe I'm mistaken. The amount was based on a percentage of the average state wide funding per student. Regardless, $6k is still a high number for most.

And to comment on your reply above mine… It's not for everyone when there is:
1. Prioritization of eligibility
2. A maximum on dollars spent/program participants

Nor was it to be used for public schools.

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Well, I put this on another thread concerning funding.

Right now, the state doesn't give anyone money if a kid is enrolled in a private school. Kid is not enrolled in public school, so the state funding is zero.

So, assuming these kids stay in private school, the state will have to start paying under the voucher system.

That will require a tax increase unless they somehow void credits to anyone who was in private school before 2025.

I'm no expert in how schools are funded but I'm gettin there with all the reading I've done on it.

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The amount of money available for this program has a limit. And you're right, current privately educated children would be eligible. The pool of students is so large that at a 500 million dollar budget, with a voucher of 8-10k, less than 1% will benefit.

Not much will change in regard to public schooling. What will change is the government oversight and control that will undoubtedly befall private education.

Booma94 said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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That's not how this works broseph.

I can choose the type of truck or vehicle. I can choose the amount of which I drive it. The vehicle cannot pass bonds or taxes when it wants to upgrade its stereo system.

I can fire the truck and replace it at will.

Get out of here with that bull****

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I'm pretty sure passing bonds is done in an election where the voters who are affected get to say yes or no. But maybe I don't understand how the process works.

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The problem with bond elections is that there is a great deal of dishonesty involved. Take the district I live in. We HAD to have substantial renovations and/or rebuidings at certain campi (pardon the Rush illiteration; sheesh, I miss that guy). So the bond package called for that. It also called for a bunch of other stuff that was not approved. I voted against all of it, but some of it passed, including the campus rebuilding of an elementary campus. Now, fast forward 6 months AFTER the bond is approved and the district announces that they will be closing 2 elementary schools because of declining enrollment.

Say what? You pushed through a bond package that called for the tear down and rebuild of one campus all while you DAMN WELL KNEW you'd be closing 2 other ones, ones that were not in need of tear down. I don't believe for a second that the district just came to the realization in the 6 months after the bond was approved that enrollment figures they had to have known about for a while would suddenly cause school closures. Even if the campuses were in need of some repair, that could have been done over a period of time with substantially less money than called for in the bond election.

So, no, it isn't as simple as calling for a yes/no vote on the bond election, especially when politicians are just outright dishonest. My school district has gone to single district members, so getting the ones out that did all this is difficult at best.

Bond elections are the worst. Such direct financial impact decided by a few voters unless the election happens to align with a big federal election.

And they'll just reintroduce the same or bigger package until something gets passed

There is a metric crap ton of smoke and mirrors for every bond election.

The biggest lie is that "your taxes won't increase by one penny!". Sorry, it is impossible to pass a billion dollar bond and think the money just magically appears because you rubbed a genie bottle and wished for it.

Additionally, it shoudl be a law that unless a bond gets X% of voters in the district to actually vote, one way or another doesn't matter, that the bond automatically fails. The fact that a billion dollar bond can be passed by 300 voters in a district with a population of say 250,000 is absolute garbage IMO.

Last bond we had here, the bond was to build a new CTE building on the high school campus, plus some other odds and ends. What wasn't in the bond was the district buying an old business campus to convert into the new Admin campus....but the super knew the language of the bond and pinched enough pennies out of the new CTE building that he had enough money left over to buy the campus and pay for renovations. Crooked AF in my opinion.

MaxPower said:

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My biggest beef with vouchers is that State law requires public schools to take students. That means when Billy's parents pay their $8k to a private school and then realize that school sucks or Billy gets kicked out for being an idiot then the local public school has to take that kid back. It's simply impossible for a local school to plan not knowing how many rejects they have to take after school starts.


I will be against school vouchers until the proposed bill requires parent accountability. That means if you take the cash and your kid can't cut it then your ass can find a way to home school your kid.

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Schools currently plan for having kids come and go, it happens all of the time in every district currently. My wife has to juggle schedules for teachers and kids all of the time because of it, so the idea that now it is some new thing just isn't correct.

My biggest beef right now is that schools have no competition and are fat and lazy when it comes to anything approching fiscal accountability, discipline or pushing to raise standards. Because they get their cheese no matter what, kid there or not there - they get the tax dollars that are forcibly taken from the parent. That is wrong on multiple levels.

The "damn well knew"…. I don't know the specifics of your district, but many districts did not know that there would be an enrollment drop. Our district conducts a demographic study each year that helps feed into the budget process. Those studies showed projected increases in enrollment up through the study in early 2021. Then the 2022 and subsequent studies have now shown projected decreases.

I'm sure there's lots of questions about the study and accuracy, and firm that executed it, but my point is that a lot of districts did not see that coming and had to secure funding for, and plan, for enrollment increases well ahead of this new trend of projected decreases.

Looking back, it is way clearer that lowering birth rates, hyper-inflation, consistently higher real estate, etc would promote decreases in enrollment. Hindsight 20/20.

If the bad kids were able to be kicked out of school, vouchers would be way less necessary. If a particular school had too many of the kids expelled then close the school down, and bus the remaining kids to be with other good kids.

Like 99% of our nation's problems, they are self-inflicted by politicians and lawyers.

10andBOUNCE said:

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What existing government program is being replaced and exiting stage left?

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Whoever now cuts blind checks to schools by address, will now cut checks to schools based on where students are enrolled. We are not adding a new department.

And it is closer to a free market solution than we have now.

Jack Squat 83 said:

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If the bad kids were able to be kicked out of school, vouchers would be way less necessary. If a particular school had too many of the kids expelled then close the school down, and bus the remaining kids to be with other good kids.

Like 99% of our nation's problems, they are self-inflicted by politicians and lawyers.

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I agree it would make things way better, but that's never happening.

You know why.

Logos Stick said:

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Jack Squat 83 said:

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If the bad kids were able to be kicked out of school, vouchers would be way less necessary. If a particular school had too many of the kids expelled then close the school down, and bus the remaining kids to be with other good kids.

Like 99% of our nation's problems, they are self-inflicted by politicians and lawyers.

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I agree it would make things way better, but that's never happening.

You know why.

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Both my parents worked in schools, my mother a teacher and my dad as business manager/ tax assessor. My dad always said that ad valorem taxes were the worst possible way to fund schools and my mother lamented that state and federal regulations prevented the firing of poor teachers and imposed too many mandates, and that was 40 years ago. Can't relate to what it is know. The last of our children graduated from high school 20 years ago and I could already see a lot of changes.

I grew up in a rural school district and there were trucks in the school parking lot with gun racks. I can actually remember sighting in a deer rifle with a friend in the parking lot after school. That would go over well now. Also remember kids over 18 could smoke at school in designated areas, and under 18 with parents permission. We didn't have a dress code either, the principal would call the parents and tell them do dress acceptably. Athletes had to answer to their coaches or be disciplined for improper dress which was harsher than school standard. Social promotion of under performing students was beginning while I was in school. I actually had a classmate whose older brother was legally able to buy bear in high school(21 yo). There was underage drinking, but we feared our parents more than law enforcement because they would tell them. Drugs were a problem even then, but less significant than they are now. Times have definitely changed.

richardag said:

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cevans_40 said:

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richardag said:

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cevans_40 said:

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richardag said:

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TheCurl84 said:

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I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.

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I'm sure there will be some issues. The devil is in the details. One can almost guarantee there will be problems that need to be worked out.
Hope the system of vouchers can solve those problems as it places emphasis on education.

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Without standardized testing (which I hate), I don't see how you can have any form of real oversight.

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I didn't say anything about standardized testing.

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I did. If voucher money is not tied to some form of standardized testing to monitor school performance, then it will essentially be unchecked.

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There will be testing, as it is currently done in private schools. We sent our daughters to private school in Oak Cliff and they had standardized testing.

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What tests were administered?

Agthatbuilds said:

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Yes, as a tax paying member of a district that is sending 72 million dollars back to Texas, I totally find no flaws that im personally paying higher taxes to fund school districts far away from my location.

It'd be nice to give the teachers a raise and I bet 72 million would cover it. But we need to raise the taxes to provide such a lift.

Frankly, I'm tired of the education racket. It's always more money. It's always more resources. More more more more. And the results get worse and worse and worse

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while I agree, just think though if parents held there kids accountable and cared about the grades. And just imagine if public schools could discipline kids and hold them accountable like the old days. The decades ago mentality, combined with the resources of today could produce excellent students and the learning would be off the charts. However, that isn't the case mainly because of the lack of discipline and respect that is no longer present in todays society.

TheCurl84 said:

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I see unintended consequences with a voucher program. I hope I'm wrong.

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And these would be?

Logos Stick said:

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Booma94 said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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Yes, as a tax paying member of a district that is sending 72 million dollars back to Texas, I totally find no flaws that im personally paying higher taxes to fund school districts far away from my location.

It'd be nice to give the teachers a raise and I bet 72 million would cover it. But we need to raise the taxes to provide such a lift.

Frankly, I'm tired of the education racket. It's always more money. It's always more resources. More more more more. And the results get worse and worse and worse

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Except that it's not always more money. Schools are being funded at the same rate they were in 2019.

And the results aren't getting worse and worse but since you're told by voucher proponents that the sky is falling, then by God the sky must be falling.

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The results are not better despite massive increases in spending. We could spend far less and do just was well:

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Not really helpful to measure scores, as content is getting tougher.

An average NFL defensive tackle in 2024 would absolutely rock an all-pro offensive line from 1970.

My daughter asked me to help her with her gaussian transform function homework last night. Do you know how to do a gaussian transform function homework problem?

Although, I agree that there is a ton of waste in the public school systems these days, and it is designed to fail. But that graph is pretty meaningless.

Property tax to fund education is a disaster on many fronts. Money keeps growing as house evals go up and no one can tell you how that really works.

Also, our culture has changed where multiple families live in on house. 90 year old adults are paying high tax while lock from birdate at 65. Why?

Several school districts are going to open policies allowing kids from neighboring schools yo enroll so they get more money from states to balance their budgets. Shows how much districts are hurting. This will make other districts suffer more.

Vouchers dont change financial issues and they probably dont change the quality of education either. Just moves money from one to another.

oldag941 said:

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If I recall, most of that testing is designed for the evaluation of the student. Not used for comparative analysis with other peer private schools. Nor would be a tool for comparing success with public schools. I get that standardized tests are administered, but if the topic is comparing success between private and public schools (or even private and private) you will need some standard tool to do so. A standard standardized test, if you will.

Will TEA mandate that tool for private as it does for public?

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It was the same tests administered to public schools. This was in the 1990s.

For those who are a "nay" for vouchers, it may please you to know that Prop 11 received over 8% points fewer than when it was on the ballot in 2022 with the exact same language. Support for propety tax elimination also continues to increase. Perhaps people are starting to slowly see…

Slowly see what? If people are turning away from free market solutions, then they are slowly going blind.

A free market solution would be giving us better control on how much we spend in taxes in the first place. If you want to send your child to private school, stop spending frivolously and start tucking the money away to do so.

Antoninus said:

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simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."

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Are we assuming that parents are entirely incapable of teaching their sons and daughters how to read and write and without the government society ends up illiterate?

AgSoccer2007 said:

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Antoninus said:

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simple question.

Let's completely do away with public schooling.

Do you want 10 million people in this state exercising the franchise, with no education whatsoever. Unable to read. Unable to write. Unable to even remotely understand the issues.

Do you want those people selecting the members of the legislator and executive branch?

if you answered "no," then even you acknowledge that education is, at least in part, a "public ghod."

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Are we assuming that parents are entirely incapable of teaching their sons and daughters how to read and write and without the government society ends up illiterate?

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I live in San Antonio. I would make that assumption for about 20% of this city.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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A free market solution would be giving us better control on how much we spend in taxes in the first place. If you want to send your child to private school, stop spending frivolously and start tucking the money away to do so.

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So if government nationalized food, you would merely say "well if you want better food, then stop spending frivolously and start tucking money away to do so"? Surely not. You would be saying "give me my tax money so I buy my own food."

Which makes sense, as the free market it VASTLY better at providing food than the government. The same is true of education. Yet you expect people to pay high taxes AND pay for expensive private school. That's ridiculous.

aTmAg said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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A free market solution would be giving us better control on how much we spend in taxes in the first place. If you want to send your child to private school, stop spending frivolously and start tucking the money away to do so.

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So if government nationalized food, you would merely say "well if you want better food, then stop spending frivolously and start tucking money away to do so"? Surely not. You would be saying "give me my tax money so I buy my own food."

Which makes sense, as the free market it VASTLY better at providing food than the government. The same is true of education. Yet you expect people to pay high taxes AND pay for expensive private school. That's ridiculous.

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No, I'd be saying don't take my tax money in the first place. Let me decide how much I'll ultimately spend in taxes by the consumption choices I make.

oldag941 said:

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The "damn well knew"…. I don't know the specifics of your district, but many districts did not know that there would be an enrollment drop. Our district conducts a demographic study each year that helps feed into the budget process. Those studies showed projected increases in enrollment up through the study in early 2021. Then the 2022 and subsequent studies have now shown projected decreases.

I'm sure there's lots of questions about the study and accuracy, and firm that executed it, but my point is that a lot of districts did not see that coming and had to secure funding for, and plan, for enrollment increases well ahead of this new trend of projected decreases.

Looking back, it is way clearer that lowering birth rates, hyper-inflation, consistently higher real estate, etc would promote decreases in enrollment. Hindsight 20/20.

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The elementary schools that are closing have enrollments of around 600 and the district says they have capacities of almost double that. This decrease didn't happen just this last year or the one before -- it was going on since at least Covid (3 years) and probably before. But if you reread my post, you'll see that only SIX MONTHS was enough given the timing of the bond election since we had the bond vote in May of last year and the announcement of the closings sometime around October.

Further, they've been moving in administrative departments to at least one of the schools -- in wings not being used -- for at least TWO YEARS. At the end of the 2021/22 school year, the "principal" of the school was walking around yanking classrooms from teachers so they could make room for administrative offices. Putting aside how awful that was, it was absolute proof that they had an idea of what they'd be doing with the school long term. So yes, they damn well knew what was going on.

I'm not alleging that I know the facts of EVERY ISD's situation, nor do I see how anyone can get that from my post. However, schools boards are a lot like Congress: getting elected to one turns a lot of people into swamp rats.

angus55 said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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look forward to the spin from posters that claim rural republicans don't want vouchers and are just too dimwitted to understand the ballot language

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Looking forward to how you keep rural schools funded when one of your primary mechanisms is still Robin Hood. Secondly will these vouchers be accepted by private schools. I know some don't because they know strings will be stretched. But you don't hear that. You think the bureaucrats are going sit idly by?

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Good schools will always be in demand. Those that suck, less so.

Burdizzo said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.

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Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?

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I would say the people voting with their feet. Is that particular school in high demand, or are people leaving it for other schools... seems that would be a pretty clear indicator.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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Burdizzo said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.

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Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?

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How do you know if a private school is failing or succeeding?

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wait lists, or people are leaving to go to your competitors

AgSoccer2007 said:

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Burdizzo said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.

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Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?

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I would say the people voting with their feet. Is that particular school in high demand, or are people leaving it for other schools... seems that would be a pretty clear indicator.

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Right, but wouldn't a standardized test be one tool they might use to make that decision? They probably want to move out due to a bad experience, but how would they know where to move to? Word of mouth from their fellow soccer moms?

AgSoccer2007 said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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Burdizzo said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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I don't understand how people don't realize that more freedom is always better, no matter how much it costs.

With that being said, public schools now need to be unshackled from the standardize testing focus and those parents need to be able to decide what measures they will use to measure the instruction that their children are receiving, just like private school parents.

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Without a standardized system, what determines if a school is succeeding or failing?

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How do you know if a private school is failing or succeeding?

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wait lists, or people are leaving to go to your competitors

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That just sounds like a popularity measurement. Then again, people are lemmings.