Brittmoore Car Club said:

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B-1 83 said:

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Odd…..a quick search in Google and Duck Duck Go turns up page after page of articles discussing COVID's impact on the heart of some patients.

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Are there studies showing that Covid is equally or more likely to cause myocarditis in young healthy people than the vaccine itself? Until then, I'm not really listening. It shouldn't be difficult for the science/medical community to come to a consensus...but that would assume that they were largely honest bodies with no agenda one way or the other.

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Malone spoke on it in detail somewhere. Yes, Covid *can* cause this in a massively minute amount of cases. The way the gene therapy shot affects cells and how the spike protein manipulates through the process of the vaccine makes a negatively impactful difference. CDC, NIH, etc have all admitted as such as well. It's no secret. I think there are some studies cited on the CDC website.

doesn't appear to be.

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[Health Minister Mark] Butler urged those yet to get the recommended number of shots to do so, with 5.5 million Australians, roughly a fifth of the population, yet to receive a third dose despite being eligible.

Butler also accepted ATAGI recommendations that Pfizer's Omicron-specific vaccine be approved as a booster dose for adults; 4.7 million doses will arrive ahead of a rollout due to begin on Dec 12.

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Zobel said:

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You seem completely reasonable.

But in honesty I doubt you'll find many people in the views you're describing here on this forum.

If there's a lesson in the past few years it's that people in general can be weaponized and driven to hatred by propaganda and social media. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to the left.

In the end the real stupidity is that opinions on the efficacy and safety of a vaccine has become a political litmus test.

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Almost everyone on this board feels exactly the same as Brittmoore. The fact that you think otherwise tells us all we need to know about you and you're likely one of the 90%.

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Are there studies showing that Covid is equally or more likely to cause myocarditis in young healthy people than the vaccine itself? Until then, I'm not really listening. It shouldn't be difficult for the science/medical community to come to a consensus...but that would assume that they were largely honest bodies with no agenda one way or the other.

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yes



https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

that being said it is noteworthy that the error bars overlap, even if the point estimates are ~8x apart. i think the takeaway is that myocarditis is not very common from either.

agdoc2001 said:

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Bobaloo said:

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I recall Hank Gathers (college basketball player) dying about 30 years ago from a heart attack during a game. It has happened before.

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Of course it has, and it is perfectly reasonable to ask if it is happening more frequently now and, if so, why?

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100%.

Glad to see someone with the doc tag post this.

SunrayAg said:

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I wonder what they thought about the A&M football player who died of a blood clot in 2002, or the A&M football player who died of a heart condition while warming up in 1991?

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I remember that. Brandon Fails. I was in my freshman year at AM and the same year as Fails. I was sitting in my psych class when one of the coaches came in, whispered something to a football player in class, and then they left together. It seemed really weird until we learned later that day what had happened. Really freaked me out because when I was in 8th grade, a ninth grader at my future high school dropped dead on the basketball court from an undiagnosed heart condition. One is bad; two is scary. Really made me freaked at the time.




My immediate family chose not to vaccinate. Extended family all did. As far as we know, immediate family hasn't had covid but everyone in my extended family has. That already seems suspicious to me. I know some libs who think we are insane for not getting vaccinated but I just don't see the point. We are all healthy and active. They point out that myocarditis is more common from covid than the shot; I point out that I'm not electing to get covid any more than I'm electing to get the shot. They don't see a difference in actively shooting yourself with something that carries a risk of myocarditis and rolling the dice on possibly catching a disease that carries a chance of myocarditis. As long as I'm fit and healthy, I'm not taking the jab.

except i'm not and never was. literally every single thing on that list has nothing to do with me. i've never voted democrat in my life, not a single time.

to clarify - the views i was saying would not be found here on the forum were things like wanting people fired or to suffer for not getting vaccinated, imprisonment for spreading misinformation, taking kids away, forcible quarantine etc. ive never seen anyone on this forum argue for those (except maybe wanting people fired? but i think then it was more along the lines of that companies can fire people if they want - something i personally think is stupid).

this is why ad homs are a logical fallacy.

oh no said:

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As long as no one risks being called a loon for even wondering if the covid vax might be attributable at all or suggests that an investigation and real study should be commenced, it's all just anecdotal. Just don't ask questions, you silly conspiraloons.

5-fold increase in sudden cardiac deaths of FIFA players in 2021 😳https://t.co/VWvJYMLIQ0 pic.twitter.com/CyYrpXNdlZ

— James Freeman (@JamesfWells) November 16, 2021

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Source for this graphic is a sketchy substack by someone called "Yaffa Shir-Raz". The claim of a 5-fold increase is not right. These sudden cardiac events happen all the time in soccer.

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The report recorded worldwide deaths attributed to sudden cardiac arrest or other unexplained sudden death while playing (or shortly after playing) football during the period from 2014 to 2018. There were 617 cases during the five-year period. In the majority of cases where an autopsy was carried out, the cause of death was coronary heart disease.

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122 per year on average. The piece by Yaffa Shir-Raz claims there were 108 in 2021.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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Are there studies showing that Covid is equally or more likely to cause myocarditis in young healthy people than the vaccine itself? Until then, I'm not really listening. It shouldn't be difficult for the science/medical community to come to a consensus...but that would assume that they were largely honest bodies with no agenda one way or the other.

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yes



https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

that being said it is noteworthy that the error bars overlap, even if the point estimates are ~8x apart. i think the takeaway is that myocarditis is not very common from either.

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And we're talking about the risks in the younger population... that chart doesn't take into account age. In that study they break it down by age, but in the graphics they only kind of include the correct data without fully breaking it down into points that give the full picture. In 16-39 year olds, it's not close.

zagman said:

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This board was better when people under their previous username, who spammed us for a year in 2020 in support of the vaccines and in denial of the deadliness and corruption in reporting deaths from COVID, were posting primarily on another board and sparing us their spam.

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Thankfully, that particular.....we'll say person, has not shown up here, unless I missed another name change.

i don't see an age breakdown of the vaccine or covid events in the paper or in the supplementary index. can you tell where you are seeing it?

you're correct that the myocarditis risk from the vaccine is predominantly for young men. at any rate - good point, you're right. this report is probably not spot on for answering the question specific to young people.

this study is probably better
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/epub/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970

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In a population of >42 million vaccinated individuals, we report several new findings that could influence public health policy on COVID-19 vaccination. First, the risk of myocarditis is substantially higher after SARS-CoV-2 infection in unvaccinated individuals than the increase in risk observed after a first dose of ChAdOx1nCoV-19 vaccine, and a first, second, or booster dose of BNT162b2 vaccine. Second, although the risk of myocarditis with SARS-CoV-2 infection remains after vaccination, it was substantially reduced, suggesting vaccination provides some protection from the cardiovascular consequences of SARS-CoV-2. Third, in contrast with other vaccines, the risk of myocarditis observed 1 to 28 days after a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine was higher and similar to the risk after infection. Last, vaccine-associated myocarditis was largely restricted to men younger than 40 years with 1 exception; both younger men and women were at increased risk of myocarditis after a second dose of mRNA-1273.

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if i was going to use one study to guide my decision, i'd not get the moderna vaccine vs pfizer as it seems to have a higher risk, and the second dose has a higher risk of myocarditis than covid does.

I suppose it should not be surprising that moderna's vaccine got the warning label.

in full disclosure, none of my kids are vaccinated. they'd all gotten covid at least once and probably twice (didn't test the second time) by the time the vaccines were out, so i don't see the point.

I've heard of a number of people over the years dying from a blow to the heart.

One example was a police officer who if I remember correctly was breaking up a bar fight being stuck in the chest above the heart by a participant. That was enough.

Is that a sign of heart disease? I would imagine it might be slightly more likely in case of heart disease, but it doesn't seem to be all that related to heart disease. But I could be wrong.

The covid and vaccine spike proteins increase risk of myocarditis. That is settled. Myocarditis may increase the risk of life-threatening ventricular arrhythmias caused by blunt impact to the chest, particularly in impact sports. The NFL needs to mandate full screening and prevention measures to reduce future risk considering they mandated players get the vaccine and most have had Covid.

https://academic.oup.com/ehjcr/article/5/3/ytab054/6154461

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35652390/

Citations for those asking: https://t.co/xL46whB7oP pic.twitter.com/GR7BIzUVn0

— Liz Wheeler (@Liz_Wheeler) January 3, 2023

how dare conspiraloons like Liz be allowed to bring this up on Musk's fascist twitter.

deddog said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Prosperdick said:

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CDUB98 said:

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SunrayAg said:

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The conspiraloons trying to sensationalize the Bills players situation without a clue of what actually happened are truly pathetic.

I wonder what they thought about the A&M football player who died of a blood clot in 2002, or the A&M football player who died of a heart condition while warming up in 1991?

Maybe let the facts come out first, and then commence with the conspiraloon hysteria.

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Blue parachute for you.

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Perhaps we could have better discourse of the issues if terms like "conspiraloon" weren't thrown around on the regular.

It's extremely concerning when one side is shouted down by merely asking questions, which after all, criticism is the backbone of the scientific method.

But apparently we're now lauding those who paint anyone who questions this "apparent" uptick in these types of incidents as loons, who should be shunned for wrong think.

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Did you noticed that Sunray singled out only one of those events?

Trying to tie the Hamlin incident to the vax immediately after it happened, and with zero evidence that it is the vax, is what earns it a conspiraloon sticker.

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Do you know for a fact that the vax didn't contribute to it?
If so, how?

Can we not discuss this without calling people names?
Of course we can't. A lot of the same folks calling people names, were mandating vaccines for our kids.

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First of all, the OP is incorrect, it has not been reported that Hamlin had a heart attack but that he went into cardiac arrest. Two different things.

Hamlin's case may very well turn out to be a freak thing that happens on occasion when someone gets hit in the chest near the heart. It's way too early to pin that incident on the vax.

agracer said:

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Zobel said:

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You seem completely reasonable.

But in honesty I doubt you'll find many people in the views you're describing here on this forum.

If there's a lesson in the past few years it's that people in general can be weaponized and driven to hatred by propaganda and social media. It's not a phenomenon exclusive to the left.

In the end the real stupidity is that opinions on the efficacy and safety of a vaccine has become a political litmus test.

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Almost everyone on this board feels exactly the same as Brittmoore. The fact that you think otherwise tells us all we need to know about you and you're likely one of the 90%.

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It's always fun when people presume to speak for everyone else. I agree with Zobel. The groupthink is so engrained on this board that people actually believe what they're reposting without and deep dive in to the facts…or consideration of lack there of. People on here believe the vax is a dangerous conspiracy and that makes them 1) a patriot and 2) a victim of all the people calling them crazy (except for this forum). It's all about picking one of only 2 sides..Vax is all bad, or all good. Some how the gray no longer exists

Are these loons conspiring? Asking for a friend.

samurai_science said:

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oh no said:

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the link in that tweet.. wow.

https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx

that many dead or collapsing on field athletes.. those are all sure to be a anecdotal coincidences. I can't believe conspiraloons were allowed to put all that together in one link.

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Yes, its pretty sad.

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I think what is important to remember is the combination of these perfectly healthy athletes collapsing on the field with various and seemingly increasing incidents of heart disease, in combination with the #unexpected / sudden death video that is circulating on the internet. The video is important, because you have numerous morticians stepping forward, some with 30+ years of experience stating that for the first time in their careers they are unable to get the embalming fluid to flow through the deceased body because of massive blood clots found in the bodies. These people have been morticians for decades, and have embalmed thousands of bodies, and now all of a sudden at the time of Covid-19 and the new mRNA vaccines, this is occurring in dead bodies. So, something they've never seen, and now they are seeing frequently in bodies of folks that have died in 2020, 2021 and 2022, makes you wonder what Covid-19 and/or the mRNA vaccines are doing to our bodies?

ntxVol said:

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deddog said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Prosperdick said:

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CDUB98 said:

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SunrayAg said:

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The conspiraloons trying to sensationalize the Bills players situation without a clue of what actually happened are truly pathetic.

I wonder what they thought about the A&M football player who died of a blood clot in 2002, or the A&M football player who died of a heart condition while warming up in 1991?

Maybe let the facts come out first, and then commence with the conspiraloon hysteria.

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Blue parachute for you.

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Perhaps we could have better discourse of the issues if terms like "conspiraloon" weren't thrown around on the regular.

It's extremely concerning when one side is shouted down by merely asking questions, which after all, criticism is the backbone of the scientific method.

But apparently we're now lauding those who paint anyone who questions this "apparent" uptick in these types of incidents as loons, who should be shunned for wrong think.

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Did you noticed that Sunray singled out only one of those events?

Trying to tie the Hamlin incident to the vax immediately after it happened, and with zero evidence that it is the vax, is what earns it a conspiraloon sticker.

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Do you know for a fact that the vax didn't contribute to it?
If so, how?

Can we not discuss this without calling people names?
Of course we can't. A lot of the same folks calling people names, were mandating vaccines for our kids.

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First of all, the OP is incorrect, it has not been reported that Hamlin had a heart attack but that he went into cardiac arrest. Two different things.

Hamlin's case may very well turn out to be a freak thing that happens on occasion when someone gets hit in the chest near the heart. It's way too early to pin that incident on the vax.

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We can no longer deny, and studies support, the contention that the vaccine increases the risk of myocarditis, particularly in young men like Hamlin. Additionally, it is perfectly reasonable, and many physicians share the concern, that myocarditis can increase the risk of arrhythmias caused by impacts to the chest. It is not conspiratorial. It is reasonable to suspect the vaccine may have contributed to the collapse. What is unreasonable is for so many people to deny the possibility with such mindless fervor.

Fireman said:

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samurai_science said:

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oh no said:

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the link in that tweet.. wow.

https://airtable.com/shrbaT4x8LG8EbvVG/tbl7xKsSUIOPAa7Mx

that many dead or collapsing on field athletes.. those are all sure to be a anecdotal coincidences. I can't believe conspiraloons were allowed to put all that together in one link.

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Yes, its pretty sad.

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I think what is important to remember is the combination of these perfectly healthy athletes collapsing on the field with various and seemingly increasing incidents of heart disease, in combination with the #unexpected / sudden death video that is circulating on the internet. The video is important, because you have numerous morticians stepping forward, some with 30+ years of experience stating that for the first time in their careers they are unable to get the embalming fluid to flow through the deceased body because of massive blood clots found in the bodies. These people have been morticians for decades, and have embalmed thousands of bodies, and now all of a sudden at the time of Covid-19 and the new mRNA vaccines, this is occurring in dead bodies. So, something they've never seen, and now they are seeing frequently in bodies of folks that have died in 2020, 2021 and 2022, makes you wonder what Covid-19 and/or the mRNA vaccines are doing to our bodies?

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Yes, it is the combination of many sources of known information which leads reasonable people to question "what is happening"? The spike protein is proven increase bloods clots and increase the risk of myocarditis. Is it the same whether it is introduced via Covid or the vaccine? Who knows, but why are people who ask a perfectly reasonable question regularly excoriated? Science demands questions, not conformity.

Zobel said:

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except i'm not and never was. literally every single thing on that list has nothing to do with me. i've never voted democrat in my life, not a single time.

to clarify - the views i was saying would not be found here on the forum were things like wanting people fired or to suffer for not getting vaccinated, imprisonment for spreading misinformation, taking kids away, forcible quarantine etc. ive never seen anyone on this forum argue for those (except maybe wanting people fired? but i think then it was more along the lines of that companies can fire people if they want - something i personally think is stupid).

this is why ad homs are a logical fallacy.

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My apologies, I had your post backwards.

oh no said:

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As long as no one risks being called a loon for even wondering if the covid vax might be attributable at all or suggests that an investigation and real study should be commenced, it's all just anecdotal. Just don't ask questions, you silly conspiraloons.

5-fold increase in sudden cardiac deaths of FIFA players in 2021 😳https://t.co/VWvJYMLIQ0 pic.twitter.com/CyYrpXNdlZ

— James Freeman (@JamesfWells) November 16, 2021

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The F84 loons will not like this …. Since no one cares what those loons post over on F84 they are over here causing problems…. Keep posting facts for those people

Great job

Let me add that ALL information coming out these days does not support taking any of these vaccines .. there is literally zero information that supports taking the no safe and not effective vaccines ..

are they even making these vaccines anymore ?

because by and large the question has been answered, repeatedly. people continue to push under the guise of "just asking questions" the same way they do with the idea that vaccines cause autism or 9/11 trutherism.

mRNA vaccines absolutely cause an increased myocarditis risk versus not getting the vaccine. the risk of myocarditis is higher with covid, except for maybe moderna's vaccine second shot for young men in particular. that's been established, and the fda actually did a good job of jumping on that when the evidence came out. that's why they put a warning label on the mrna vaccines, and why they delayed moderna's fda approval.

but the mechanism for that has been studied. the rates are anywhere from 1 to 10 per 100,000 people. the most common estimate seem to be around 3 per 100,000. it happens in the week after vaccination, more often after the second than the first, more likely for men than women, more likely for younger than older with a median age of 36.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782900

vaccine induced myocarditis has been studied in direct comparison with viral induced myocarditis. so while the relative risk of viral myocarditis and vaccine myocarditis may be similar, the mortality risk of vaccine myocarditis is 92% lower than vaccine. the study found one death in 104 patients from vaccination. that's a really small sample size, so i don't know how reliable we should consider that number. it may over-estimate the mortality risk of vaccine induced myocarditis. i can't find any similar studies to compare against.
https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.09.049

in the US something like 68% of people have received two or more doses vaccine, but 19 million of those are J&J. we have probably had around 6000 myocarditis cases, and possibly as high as 60 vaccine related deaths due to myocarditis.

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FWIW, visited one of the top cardiologists in the world. Cardio said he was glad his employer didn't mandate boosters. And said don't take the MRNA vaccines.

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Names?

Lots of loons out there in the world, and disparity between Dems and Repubs isn't very large....

‘Died Suddenly’? More Than 1-in-4 Think Someone They Know Died From COVID-19 Vaccines

Art by @jaaq_cartoonist

More at Rasmussen Reports:https://t.co/aGl5QKWFPM pic.twitter.com/MF52MYbFWK

— Rasmussen Reports (@Rasmussen_Poll) January 2, 2023

How many professional triathletes have died? None? And times have continued to get faster.

I look to the best athletes in the world and don't see the same correlation.

KTSA's Jack Riccardi is interviewing UT Health's Dr. Allen Anderson who said that sudden cardiac death is the #1 cause of death among young athletes. According to him this happens and is not a new thing.

Ragoo said:

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How many professional triathletes have died? None? And times have continued to get faster.

I look to the best athletes in the world and don't see the same correlation.

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Triathlete dies from heart attack at Ironman 70.3 Chattanooga

Triathlete dies after suffering heart attack during Ironman

U.S. triathlete dies of a heart attack

TRIATHLON TRAGEDY Triathlon competitor dies after suspected heart attack in Wales

That was a 5-minute search result.
All are pre covid

TxTarpon said:

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Ragoo said:

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How many professional triathletes have died? None? And times have continued to get faster.

I look to the best athletes in the world and don't see the same correlation.

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Triathlete dies from heart attack at Ironman 70.3 Chattanooga

Triathlete dies after suffering heart attack during Ironman

U.S. triathlete dies of a heart attack

TRIATHLON TRAGEDY Triathlon competitor dies after suspected heart attack in Wales

That was a 5-minute search result.

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post vaccine dummy

Any docs here care to comment or clarify? I have no idea.

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1,598 athlete cardiac arrests since Jan 2021. 69% fatal.

(Average athlete cardiacs before vax was 29/yr).

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From the tweet from Liz Wheeler.

I find the latter number very hard to believe. That is way too low , and im assuming these are US numbers

TxTarpon said:

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Quote:

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FWIW, visited one of the top cardiologists in the world. Cardio said he was glad his employer didn't mandate boosters. And said don't take the MRNA vaccines.

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Names?

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Can't.
I know, it's just my word which means diddly squat, but this person didn't want it known. I would have rather not met this reknowned person, but things are looking up.