Counterpoint, he's very small and easily portable
*** GoT: House of the Dragon - Season 2***
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Last: 2 mo ago by TyHolden
Oh, I'll wear that one on my sleeve, no problem. I proudly push back on expectations that we should all know who the hell every one of these characters are, their family trees, history, etc. I can be both a causal viewer but also care enough to discuss the motivations and storytelling mechanics online.
bobinator said:
Counterpoint, he's very small and easily portable
No I'm not! Oh, I got it nevermind.
Son and I were watching last night - we're just watching this and the Acolyte. You can argue that there hasn't been any major action/battles this season, but oh my is the production on this incredible.
Think it may have been mentioned in this thread - but how are they spending the same amount of money on these shows? There hasn't been an expensive 'Battle of the *******s' or something like it and it just seems like the quality is like an expensive movie. The Acolyte looks like something done on 1/10th of the budget.
Think it may have been mentioned in this thread - but how are they spending the same amount of money on these shows? There hasn't been an expensive 'Battle of the *******s' or something like it and it just seems like the quality is like an expensive movie. The Acolyte looks like something done on 1/10th of the budget.
There are more dragons and the cost of food is up.dude95 said:
Son and I were watching last night - we're just watching this and the Acolyte. You can argue that there hasn't been any major action/battles this season, but oh my is the production on this incredible.
Think it may have been mentioned in this thread - but how are they spending the same amount of money on these shows? There hasn't been an expensive 'Battle of the *******s' or something like it and it just seems like the quality is like an expensive movie. The Acolyte looks like something done on 1/10th of the budget.
oragator said:
I can't put my finger on it, but this year just seems to be lacking something so far compared to last. Still better than 95 percent of TV (or more), but just not the same. Maybe it's because the secondary characters just don't seem quite as compelling as last year or GOT years and it's hurting the overall drama level maybe? Also, so many of them pop in and out for an episode or 2 a year that if you haven't read the books keeping up with them isn't always easy. Not bailing for sure, just a different vibe.
I looked at IMDB to see if it was just me and all three of this season's episodes are the lowest rated of the series to date.
I'm enjoying it but agree it's not quite the same so far. I think we get a ton of stuff next week though.
I think part of it so far has been not much Aemond, not the same quality amount of Daemon, and even not that much from guys like Larys.
Another thought about Alicent stopping the war by capturing Rhaenyra...
Daemon is still out there, and Rhaenyra is pretty much the only thing keeping him in check. Capture her, and he hits the nuke button and they have terrible war anyway. Alicent is likely aware of that...
Not that it was her primary thought when she left
Daemon is still out there, and Rhaenyra is pretty much the only thing keeping him in check. Capture her, and he hits the nuke button and they have terrible war anyway. Alicent is likely aware of that...
Not that it was her primary thought when she left
If they captured or killed rhaenyra, ,daemon would take caraxes to kings landing just to watch the world burn
redline248 said:
Another thought about Alicent stopping the war by capturing Rhaenyra...
Daemon is still out there, and Rhaenyra is pretty much the only thing keeping him in check. Capture her, and he hits the nuke button and they have terrible war anyway. Alicent is likely aware of that...
Not that it was her primary thought when she left
Not to mention all of her other advisors as well. Jace also looks like he is itching to fight.
Without Rhaenyra (and of course they'd have to kill her, even if Alicent doesn't want them to) all of their allies and everything would fall apart and it would be the entire world against Daemon.
This. I'm finally caught up re-watching last season and through episode 3. Rhaenyra is the only person keeping things from going full on dragon fire, and Alicent knows this. Taking Rhaenyra prisoner or killing her would do nothing. Rhaenyra has heirs, and Daemon is still coveting the throne, and team black has several more dragons than team green. Rhaenyra is, at least for the moment, still showing restraint.redline248 said:
Another thought about Alicent stopping the war by capturing Rhaenyra...
Daemon is still out there, and Rhaenyra is pretty much the only thing keeping him in check. Capture her, and he hits the nuke button and they have terrible war anyway. Alicent is likely aware of that...
Not that it was her primary thought when she left
Alicent doubled down, but she really couldn't do anything else. Rhaenyra doesn't know the true dynamics within house green. When she left just before Viserys died, Alicent still had a lot of influence, especially over Aegon. Now she's pretty much lost any power. Trying to pull her story back and convince Aegon to step down for Rhaenyra is not happening.
After just re-watching Season 1, I had forgotten just how wimpy and inept Viserys was. Rhaenys really should have been named heir.
I think the sum of my thoughts on this is that them meeting face to face didn't matter at all.
It could have actually been a good through-line through this upcoming war of whether or not they could agree to something if they got in a room together. Them not being able to meet in person to possibly sort this out because of the trappings of their own power would have been a good subplot to keep exploring. They could send private letters to each other lamenting the situation, expressing grief over the other's losses, possibly later on conspiring together to release a hostage if it's one of their children or something, who knows.
About the only thing from a mechanics standpoint that this meeting accomplished is that instead of thinking Alicent is lying, she now knows it's just a misunderstanding, but it's not one that Alicent is going to back down from, so what practical difference does it make?
It could have actually been a good through-line through this upcoming war of whether or not they could agree to something if they got in a room together. Them not being able to meet in person to possibly sort this out because of the trappings of their own power would have been a good subplot to keep exploring. They could send private letters to each other lamenting the situation, expressing grief over the other's losses, possibly later on conspiring together to release a hostage if it's one of their children or something, who knows.
About the only thing from a mechanics standpoint that this meeting accomplished is that instead of thinking Alicent is lying, she now knows it's just a misunderstanding, but it's not one that Alicent is going to back down from, so what practical difference does it make?
Are we watching the same show?
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
That meeting - and the realization of the misunderstanding - was maybe the most pivotal thing that has happened all season.
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
That meeting - and the realization of the misunderstanding - was maybe the most pivotal thing that has happened all season.
Coming from the guy who couldn't recall a single mention of Aegon the Conqueror in the entirety of this show or GoT?
Wouldn't that have been a very interesting ongoing internal conflict? That little voice in her head telling her things could be different but the reality of the situation pulling things further and further into chaos and bloodshed?TCTTS said:
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
Her wanting to show restraint but not sure if she practically can would have been better than this "scorched earth" thing everyone seems convinced is about to happen. Although to your point I guess it's true that she's going to use the meeting as validation for going all the way in, so I it did matter, I guess my point is that I'd rather have that bit of conflict still there.
And it's only the most pivotal thing that's happened this season because nothing else has happened this season other than two wildly stupid assassination attempts. Things are about to pick up though presumably, but one thing GoT did well that we haven't seen in this show is actual clever scheming from some of our main characters. Most of the major plot mechanisms so far in this show have either been mistakes, accidents, or misunderstandings.
bobinator said:
I'd argue taking her prisoner is the only chance she's got at keeping her former best friend alive.
Ding ding. Nobody said kill her. I said capture her.
bobinator said:Wouldn't that have been a very interesting ongoing internal conflict? That little voice in her head telling her things could be different but the reality of the situation pulling things further and further into chaos and bloodshed?TCTTS said:
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
Her wanting to show restraint but not sure if she practically can would have been better than this "scorched earth" thing everyone seems convinced is about to happen. Although to your point I guess it's true that she's going to use the meeting as validation for going all the way in, so I it did matter, I guess my point is that I'd rather have that bit of conflict still there.
And it's only the most pivotal thing that's happened this season because nothing else has happened this season other than two wildly stupid assassination attempts. Things are about to pick up though presumably, but one thing GoT did well that we haven't seen in this show is actual clever scheming from some of our main characters. Most of the major plot mechanisms so far in this show have either been mistakes, accidents, or misunderstandings.
To me this is a feature not a bug. It's... the entire thematic point, one they've hammered home over and over again with all the "no one will even remember what started this war" talk. It's all a commentary on how stupid/petty/needless war can be, as it's often born out of accidents, misunderstandings, and insecurities.
As for Rhaenyra's potential ongoing internal conflict, based on a number of reactions here, it seems people are more than ready to get to the war, so no, I don't think it would be a good idea to put that off any longer. We've now had three episodes this season of internal conflict/trying to avoid war at all costs, and that feels like just the right amount. Any more than that, or any more gray area, seems like overkill. In total, we're now 13 episodes in, the sides are set, everyone's had that their chance, etc. It's high time we get this party started...
bobinator said:
I think the sum of my thoughts on this is that them meeting face to face didn't matter at all.
It could have actually been a good through-line through this upcoming war of whether or not they could agree to something if they got in a room together. Them not being able to meet in person to possibly sort this out because of the trappings of their own power would have been a good subplot to keep exploring. They could send private letters to each other lamenting the situation, expressing grief over the other's losses, possibly later on conspiring together to release a hostage if it's one of their children or something, who knows.
About the only thing from a mechanics standpoint that this meeting accomplished is that instead of thinking Alicent is lying, she now knows it's just a misunderstanding, but it's not one that Alicent is going to back down from, so what practical difference does it make?
I can't help but think if each had brought counsel and agreed on a third party mediator some sort of creative solution could have been reached.
Both the queen and the queen dowager are products of their fathers.
Rhaenyra is doing everything she can to follow the letter of the law and avoid unneeded bloodshed. She is respected by a lot of her family and most of them (Daemon) aside give her council based on what's best for the realm, not their personal glory.
Allicent is bending her reality to fit what she wants to happen, even after she realizes that she might have made a giant error. She isn't liked by anyone (Ser Cristen Bone excluded) and everyone who engages with her is seeking only to promote their own status / agenda. She's not a Targ and doesn't have a dragon. With Aegon giving Cole basically unlimited power as Hand and Captain of the Guard, her influence over both men is down to next to nothing.
Rhaenyra is doing everything she can to follow the letter of the law and avoid unneeded bloodshed. She is respected by a lot of her family and most of them (Daemon) aside give her council based on what's best for the realm, not their personal glory.
Allicent is bending her reality to fit what she wants to happen, even after she realizes that she might have made a giant error. She isn't liked by anyone (Ser Cristen Bone excluded) and everyone who engages with her is seeking only to promote their own status / agenda. She's not a Targ and doesn't have a dragon. With Aegon giving Cole basically unlimited power as Hand and Captain of the Guard, her influence over both men is down to next to nothing.
Rhaenyra at the end of this episode...
Criston after Gwayne gave away their position to the Blacks...
Pretty sure the meeting was created to get Olivia Cooke and Emma D'Arcy acting together in the same scene, which is more intriguing than them being in separate locations/scenes for the whole season
I mean yeah, obviously, the dumb-ness of it is part of the point. It's obviously intentionally a juxtaposition against GoT which had a whole bunch of smart people with smart plans.
But I'm just asking for like, one or two things to happen that someone actually intended to happen and schemed to make happen. Literally almost everything that's happened in this show was unintentional. Alicent misheard/misunderstood the king's last words, the kids get into a fight and one of them stabs the other's eye out, the kid with one eye accidentally kills the other kid on his dragon, the ratcatcher killed the wrong baby, etc, etc.
I'm also definitely not saying delay the way any longer, but I'm saying that even as she gets drug into it she could still be trying to find ways out of it or to minimize it. I dunno, i guess everyone's mileage varies but a scene with the whole point of just being like "oh I thought she was lying but now I know it's a misunderstanding but she's going through with it anyway so it's ON ON" just didn't land.
I guess this goes back to why this just isn't landing for me so far overall. In Game of Thrones you had a whole cast of characters that you cared about in various ways, but all of them seemed imminently capable of winning the game at various points. Everyone in this show except Rhaenyra and Otto Hightower is somewhere between an idiot and just outright violent. There's like five or six Joffreys.
But I'm just asking for like, one or two things to happen that someone actually intended to happen and schemed to make happen. Literally almost everything that's happened in this show was unintentional. Alicent misheard/misunderstood the king's last words, the kids get into a fight and one of them stabs the other's eye out, the kid with one eye accidentally kills the other kid on his dragon, the ratcatcher killed the wrong baby, etc, etc.
I'm also definitely not saying delay the way any longer, but I'm saying that even as she gets drug into it she could still be trying to find ways out of it or to minimize it. I dunno, i guess everyone's mileage varies but a scene with the whole point of just being like "oh I thought she was lying but now I know it's a misunderstanding but she's going through with it anyway so it's ON ON" just didn't land.
I guess this goes back to why this just isn't landing for me so far overall. In Game of Thrones you had a whole cast of characters that you cared about in various ways, but all of them seemed imminently capable of winning the game at various points. Everyone in this show except Rhaenyra and Otto Hightower is somewhere between an idiot and just outright violent. There's like five or six Joffreys.
Can we all agree Criston is the biggest piece of **** in this whole show?
They have to tease it out because one the dragons start fighting each other, things are going to speed up. This isn't the battle of the blackwater where you build up to it for 3 episodes. The dragons aren't going to go back to their own castles at night and rest. They are unlikely to retreat. They'll go at it until one is dead, and then you're rapidly taking players off the table in quick succession.
If they're even loosely following Fire & Blood, we'll have about 25,000 new things to talk about next week, so buck up! TC is right, it's about to be go time.
If they're even loosely following Fire & Blood, we'll have about 25,000 new things to talk about next week, so buck up! TC is right, it's about to be go time.
The rat catcher definitely intended to kill the baby that was killed.
TCTTS said:
Are we watching the same show?
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
That meeting - and the realization of the misunderstanding - was maybe the most pivotal thing that has happened all season.
How did Rhaenyra not already have the confidence to go scorched Earth? Team Green has 1. Usurped her throne. 2. Killed her son. 3. Sent an assassin to kill her. I don't understand how this conversation is what puts things over the top. If the person you consider to have stolen your throne, killed your son, and tried to kill you doesn't give you reason, you will never have reason. I am fine if she doesn't want to attack yet because she still needs time to solidify her army, train them, etc. but if she still thought that Team Green was just going to step aside and let her rule, she's an idiot.
tk for tu juan said:
Pretty sure the meeting was created to get Olivia Cooke and Emma D'Arcy acting together in the same scene, which is more intriguing than them being in separate locations/scenes for the whole season
Should have met at a brothel...
AustinAg2K said:TCTTS said:
Are we watching the same show?
Rhaenyra now has the knowledge/confidence to basically go scorched earth. That wouldn't have happened without the two of them meeting in person, or via letters.
That meeting - and the realization of the misunderstanding - was maybe the most pivotal thing that has happened all season.
How did Rhaenyra not already have the confidence to go scorched Earth? Team Green has 1. Usurped her throne. 2. Killed her son. 3. Sent an assassin to kill her. I don't understand how this conversation is what puts things over the top. If the person you consider to have stolen your throne, killed your son, and tried to kill you doesn't give you reason, you will never have reason. I am fine if she doesn't want to attack yet because she still needs time to solidify her army, train them, etc. but if she still thought that Team Green was just going to step aside and let her rule, she's an idiot.
Again, it's not about teams/logistics/strategy, who has more, etc. It's like some of you only watch this show through the eyes of a general and only think in terms of war strategy or whatever. Rather, it was about a PERSONAL HISTORY and CONNECTION between two women. To that end, despite having every reason to go to war (and all the confidence that she could win it) we saw/heard Rhaenyra give Alicent the benefit of the doubt multiple times over the past three episodes, and vice versa. The ONE thing keeping either of them from pulling the trigger, so to speak, was that they each knew in their bones that the other wasn't the one giving the orders, that their respective cohorts were to blame, etc. But once Rhaenyra saw it with her own eyes, that when faced with the actual truth of what went down, Alicent was still denial of that truth, it was game over. That was the final straw for Rhaenyra. It wasn't about having confidence that she could win the war, it was about finally having confidence that she had exhausted every last resort but war.
Rhaenyra took Rhaenys's advice that when dragons start killing dragons, that's the beginning of the end of Targareyn rule. Which is what is going to happen. When they go from 20 dragons to 10 to 5 to ones that don't get bigger than a dog to not any at all, then you have Aerys (TC, do you know who this is?) get kidnapped for a year by the guy at Duskendale and eventually a drunken fat ass frat boy like Robert Baratheon channeling his inner Blutarsky and going right at them when Rhaeger steals his sort-of girlfriend.
Rhaenyra thinks, this entire time, that Alicent is lying. She doesn't know that it was a misunderstanding, she thinks Alicent is outright lying about what the King said. So in her mind, she thinks that even though Alicent is willing to go this far, literally usurping her throne and then sticking with her story even though one of her sons killed one of Rhaenyra's, that after a little fireside girl time chat she's going to be like "oh you know you're right I am lying, super my bad, let's unwind this and find a way out?"
Like, what would the outcome have possibly been there that didn't lead to an all-out war? I think that's why it's not landing for some people is that we've already demonstrated, several times, that Alicent is going to back her kids. Rhaenyra shouldn't have needed one last confirmation of that.
That said, I assume the knowledge that it's not a lie, but a misunderstanding, will be important later. She'll let someone live or something because they went along with the usurpation not knowing that it was based on a misunderstanding.
Like, what would the outcome have possibly been there that didn't lead to an all-out war? I think that's why it's not landing for some people is that we've already demonstrated, several times, that Alicent is going to back her kids. Rhaenyra shouldn't have needed one last confirmation of that.
That said, I assume the knowledge that it's not a lie, but a misunderstanding, will be important later. She'll let someone live or something because they went along with the usurpation not knowing that it was based on a misunderstanding.
Just for the record I'm not trying to be a complete hater of this show, it's got its good parts and there's plenty of time for this to be a great season, but this was mostly just some offshoot thoughts of the post asking why this season is landing for some people.
But Alicent's misunderstanding of Vicerys' final words don't really matter; the small council had already moved and made plans to usurp the throne regardless. Alicent has no power, and never really did except over Aegon. Once he was put on the throne and liked it, she lost any influenece there also. Alicent is keenly aware that she's just a pawnbobinator said:
Rhaenyra thinks, this entire time, that Alicent is lying. She doesn't know that it was a misunderstanding, she thinks Alicent is outright lying about what the King said. So in her mind, she thinks that even though Alicent is willing to go this far, literally usurping her throne and then sticking with her story even though one of her sons killed one of Rhaenyra's, that after a little fireside girl time chat she's going to be like "oh you know you're right I am lying, super my bad, let's unwind this and find a way out?"
Like, what would the outcome have possibly been there that didn't lead to an all-out war? I think that's why it's not landing for some people is that we've already demonstrated, several times, that Alicent is going to back her kids. Rhaenyra shouldn't have needed one last confirmation of that.
That said, I assume the knowledge that it's not a lie, but a misunderstanding, will be important later. She'll let someone live or something because they went along with the usurpation not knowing that it was based on a misunderstanding.
Rhaenyra and Alicent once had a deep friendship, and it seemed to have been on the mend before Vicerys died. The misunderstanding of the final words convinced Alicent that Vicerys wanted Aegon to be king, but deep down she must have had doubts. Aegon was not a good choice for king. It didn't take much convincing from Rhaenyra for her to realize she misunderstood. But what is she to do now but support her son?
Rhaenyra I think, had to know the truth from Alicent. She knew her friend wouldn't order her son killed, just as Alicent knew that Rhaenyra didn't have her grandson killed. Alicent had written a note that Rhaenyra wouldn't read for quite some time. Whatever it said, it convinced Rhaenyra that she should try to meet in person. The white worm helped her do that. It's not how men think. We're all ready to burn it down as soon as the greens took the throne. Rhaenyra needed a little more information from her former bestie. It's showtime now!
Episode 4 of #HouseOfTheDragon, believed to be titled "A Dance of Dragons," is one of the best episodes of television I've seen in a long time. If you've been considering watching this season, this is the week to get caught up so you don't risk getting spoilers. Absolutely epic. pic.twitter.com/wlfpm0UrgY
— Daniel Roman (@RomanWriting) July 1, 2024
Careful! Some people here will fuss at you for "hyping" an episode amongst inconsequential discussion on an internet message board!
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