*** STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER *** (Spoiler Thread)

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Zombie Jon Snow
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4:52p, 1/6/20
AG
If I didn't have the ST I'd still have the PT taste in my mouth. To say we were better off without them is SO WRONG.


This has purged any residual taste of that from my mouth and there are now enough GOOD to GREAT SW movies that I don't even have to pretend those don't exist - they just don't now. Never happened.

I have 6 main and 2 side stories that I can watch almost anytime. Even TLJ has now warmed up a little for me after TROS. It was amazingly made better by TROS in that the things that bothered me don't bother me so much as they became irrelevant and I don't have to worry about them being important - I can mostly ignore them (Phasma, Canto Bight, Rose/Finn, Luke's first act).



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bobinator
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4:53p, 1/6/20
AG
Since I don't feel like reading back 20 pages, did anyone come up with a good reason why they needed the cavalry charge on the space ship?
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to bobinator • 4:54p, 1/6/20
AG
bobinator said:
Since I don't feel like reading back 20 pages, did anyone come up with a good reason why they needed the cavalry charge on the space ship?

Falls under "Wouldn't it be cool if...." but wasn't.

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bobinator
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 4:56p, 1/6/20
AG
I've spent way too much time since I saw the movie trying to make it make sense or at least figure out what they were kind of going for.
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redline248
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4:58p, 1/6/20
AG
I was just thinking about the opening crawl...

"The dead speak!"

I kind of want a bunch of zombie star wars movies, now.
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Ag Since 83
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In reply to bobinator • 5:01p, 1/6/20
AG
The in movie explanation was to use the instead of speeders so the bad guys couldn't jam them, right?

But yeah, it's like wanting Superman wanting to fight a giant metal spider
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redline248
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In reply to bobinator • 5:01p, 1/6/20
AG
bobinator said:
I've spent way too much time since I saw the movie trying to make it make sense or at least figure out what they were kind of going for.


I don't remember exactly, but someone had a line like "it'll never work with speeders" or something, to which they replied we won't be on speeders.

So there was kind of some technical reason they were going for, but it was lost in the wash.

Edit: oh yeah, jam the speeders. Whatever that meant
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bobinator
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In reply to redline248 • 5:02p, 1/6/20
AG
I want to know how he was able to broadcast something to the entire galaxy when the spread of information in the Star Wars galaxy has been... let's say inconsistent... at best. Maybe the empire controlled the interplanetary comms channels and he kept the password when he fake died.

Like nobody in Star Wars ever knows anything that it feels like they should know. Hell at one point two beings with magic powers were hurling platforms at one another in the senate building of the capital city planet and still like nobody knows what the force is.

Anakin killing younglings is like the only thing in the history of Star Wars that was recorded on video without the subject doing the recording themselves.
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bobinator
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In reply to Ag Since 83 • 5:05p, 1/6/20
AG
Yeah, there was a reason that had something to do with jamming speeders (which... okay...), but then the tower they were going for when that was the reason ended up not being the tower and instead they were going for a tower on a ship, but the ships didn't have shields, so it seems like the plan would just be to have the pilots shoot at it? I dunno. I know in the big picture that's a really small point, but it's kind of a microcosm of the reason I had trouble with this movie. A lot of 'wait, why?' moments.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to bobinator • 5:06p, 1/6/20
AG
bobinator said:
I've spent way too much time since I saw the movie trying to make it make sense or at least figure out what they were kind of going for.

So if you want the real answer they actually alluded to it a few times.

The logic was this - the horses or whatever - were undetectable and also not easily targeted by their guns looking for mechanical signatures not bio life signs (don't ask me why they don't just track motion but whatever).

So when they were planning at one point someone says "a ground assault, who is gonna make up that group?" or something to that effect. Po says "I have an idea about that".

As they are landing the transport craft on the ships deck the military guy says "target their speeders" or something like that and the low level grunt says "ummmmm they don't have speeders" as he was looking at some scan or whatever. So they expected them to land a transport full of speeders to skim the surface and attack.

The doors open and out race the horses.

So it was kinda poorly executed as it was not obvious, but there was some strategic logic to it.

Still shoehorned in I believe as it was just kind of a let's see how we can use soemthing low tech and a more touchy feely moment for the SJW crowd in my mind cuz who cares really. I mean personally I'd be more worried about losing the horses then speeders but they didn't show any horses getting blown up so everyone wins I guess.




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bobinator
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5:08p, 1/6/20
AG
Right that was the plan when the were originally going to land on the planet, but then they ended up not landing on the planet because the Final Order figured out what they were going for and switched the towers so they landed on a ship instead. That's the part I didn't get. I was fine (I guess...) with the original horse plan, but it just seemed crazy that that was still the plan.
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BoydCrowder13
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5:51p, 1/6/20
The rewatch made something bug me even more.

The First Order like stops mattering. All of a sudden the "Final Order" has appeared and they have about 500 Star Destroyers ready to go? How? Who built them? Who is manning them? Their army's size makes no sense.

Moreover, the Resistance is pathetic. It is made up of a couple of X Wings and Tantive IV. Repeat. Tantive IV is the largest part of their "fleet". The size that got owned in the first 30 seconds of New Hope by an average Star Destroyer.

The leadership of the Resistance must be the worst of all time. They have an entire galaxy to recruit that that is all they get? At least the Rebellion had capital ships. They looked like they could actually fight.

These movies just make the good guys seem hopelessly incompetent and the bad guys the greatest army builders of all time.
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titan
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In reply to bobinator • 6:53p, 1/6/20
S
bobinator said:
Since I don't feel like reading back 20 pages, did anyone come up with a good reason why they needed the cavalry charge on the space ship?
Others have covered the set-up, but to add one other element. Take it or leave it, the reason you need the "progression up the port side flank" and then commandeering one of the ship's own batteries (still not clear how that worked) they were able to fire from the side to hit the Finalizer's bridge. On the new First Order Star Destroyers the bridge was specifically tucked in behind a pile of superstructure to make it less vulnerable than the towers of the classic ships of the Original Trilogy and Rogue One. Liked the idea, if only because it showed them "learning design lessons" from a disastrous defeat.

By the way, love the follow up sports analogies- --favorite football one is Bruce Almighty's:

Quote:
TFA was like punting with a 4th and 1 at the 50 and downing the ball at the 1 yard line. Conservative, but well executed. TLJ was like going for a 67 yard field goal that got blocked and returned for a touchdown. Ballsy but a really stupid decision that ended up in disaster. TROS was like going for it on 4th and 1, fumbling the ball, picked up by the other team who then fumbled themselves. The play was a disaster, but somehow ended up working out. Execution sucked, but possession was retained with a first down.
I can't help but think of Auburn vs Alabama in 2013 Iron Bowl!
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titan
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In reply to BoydCrowder13 • 7:02p, 1/6/20
S
BoydCrowder13 said:
The rewatch made something bug me even more.

The First Order like stops mattering. All of a sudden the "Final Order" has appeared and they have about 500 Star Destroyers ready to go? How? Who built them? Who is manning them? Their army's size makes no sense.

Moreover, the Resistance is pathetic. It is made up of a couple of X Wings and Tantive IV. Repeat. Tantive IV is the largest part of their "fleet". The size that got owned in the first 30 seconds of New Hope by an average Star Destroyer.

The leadership of the Resistance must be the worst of all time. They have an entire galaxy to recruit that that is all they get? At least the Rebellion had capital ships. They looked like they could actually fight.

These movies just make the good guys seem hopelessly incompetent and the bad guys the greatest army builders of all time.
The bold was one of the most baffling things about it. Kylo's flagship seemed to be the only one of them present; conceivably the First Order's forces are largely intact out there somewhere. Was its command structure even much dented by the loss of Kylo, Pryde and Hux? It must have a capital world somewhere. Look at the scale of Snoke's flagship. They don't lack for resources.


Quote:
Moreover, the Resistance is pathetic. It is made up of a couple of X Wings and Tantive IV. Repeat. Tantive IV is the largest part of their "fleet". The size that got owned in the first 30 seconds of New Hope by an average Star Destroyer.
Maybe not. The action moves so damned fast and quick-cutting you can't "enjoy" the ship fights --- in one or two of the "swarm" takes I could have sworn I saw the big Calamari style capital ships the Rebellion had at Return of the Jedi. If that is true, they didn't lack for punch. But still --- it makes little sense the numbers they showed up with an how almost casually they just wallop the massed Final Order fleet.
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exitone
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8:26p, 1/6/20
AG
Saw this, have no idea if it is BS, but thought I would post:

http://www.sntstory.com/2020/01/02/the-192-minute-j-j-abrams-rise-of-skywalker-cut-is-coming-sooner-than-you-think/?fbclid=IwAR0OjfylZl6e-EZ_8nKDNSSt7A1hKWIuusYYck8muEioDnLBXt65noBQLIk



"According to the editor of The Rise of Skywalker, Maryann Brandon, they barely had the time to get the current cut into theaters. They wanted to do so much more. As was witnessed by the rushed opening to the film and according to anonymous sources on the inside, as the reviews and backlash has begun to build around The Rise of Skywalker and the not-so-great critical reviews (the lowest out of the entire nine films), Disney brass began to change their tune. Maybe 192 minutes wasn't so bad if it meant there was an opportunity to bag even more box office like they'd done on Avengers: Endgame by including additional footage two months into its release.

The game plan had worked on Endgame and as early as December 28th, the rumbling started to grow louder. What about releasing the extended version of The Rise of Skywalker into theaters around late January, after the fanboys and girls had already paid to see it once or twice? The plan would be to release a longer version that included 3-5 additional sequences, then hint at the even longer Director's Cut for it's digital and home entertainment release. With an exclusive run on Disney Plus they would draw even more engagement by keeping those added sequences not in the re-release as exclusives to the service. That would clearly drive even more subscribers to the new streaming service as well."
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titan
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In reply to exitone • 8:29p, 1/6/20
S
Wait a second. It may have been the timing of when went to see it again, but


Quote:
Maybe 192 minutes wasn't so bad if it meant there was an opportunity to bag even more box office like they'd done on Avengers: Endgame by including additional footage two months into its release.
Does this mean that if you went and saw Endgame right away, that when you went to see it again some weeks later there was extra footage? Two months probably falls after the third time saw it. Fascinating.

From the link:

Quote:
They also didn't want a film that was over three hours, which would have reduced the number of times the film could have screened on a daily basis in theaters, thus reducing their potential box office.
I'll say! A three hour and 20 minute movie (192 minutes) would be close FOUR full hours at the theater because of the ridiculously long trailer-ad interval before it starts. Counting driving and back --this would require five hour day style slots of time for many.

Not that 192 minutes that made it all grander wouldn't be fun. But only changing Palpatine to Plagueis would rescue that element's suspension of disbelief.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to redline248 • 8:39p, 1/6/20
AG
I read a joke somewhere about two guys sitting in bar in Star Wars.
First guy "Hey, did you hear Palpatine is back?"
Second guy: "Yeah he was for like a week, but he's dead now ... again."
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TCTTS
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In reply to exitone • 12:02a, 1/7/20
AG
exitone said:
Saw this, have no idea if it is BS, but thought I would post:

http://www.sntstory.com/2020/01/02/the-192-minute-j-j-abrams-rise-of-skywalker-cut-is-coming-sooner-than-you-think/?fbclid=IwAR0OjfylZl6e-EZ_8nKDNSSt7A1hKWIuusYYck8muEioDnLBXt65noBQLIk



"According to the editor of The Rise of Skywalker, Maryann Brandon, they barely had the time to get the current cut into theaters. They wanted to do so much more. As was witnessed by the rushed opening to the film and according to anonymous sources on the inside, as the reviews and backlash has begun to build around The Rise of Skywalker and the not-so-great critical reviews (the lowest out of the entire nine films), Disney brass began to change their tune. Maybe 192 minutes wasn't so bad if it meant there was an opportunity to bag even more box office like they'd done on Avengers: Endgame by including additional footage two months into its release.

The game plan had worked on Endgame and as early as December 28th, the rumbling started to grow louder. What about releasing the extended version of The Rise of Skywalker into theaters around late January, after the fanboys and girls had already paid to see it once or twice? The plan would be to release a longer version that included 3-5 additional sequences, then hint at the even longer Director's Cut for it's digital and home entertainment release. With an exclusive run on Disney Plus they would draw even more engagement by keeping those added sequences not in the re-release as exclusives to the service. That would clearly drive even more subscribers to the new streaming service as well."

My bullsh*t detector is going off about as loud as it can at this. Just so many little tells.

That said... between all the various cast and crew interviews lately, there *is* enough smoke that, at this point, I would be surprised if we don't eventually get some kind of extended cut, and possibly even a significant one at that. Too many people involved with the movie have mentioned too many scenes on the cutting room floor, and with the editor of the movie straight up admitting how rushed and chaotic things were, it sounds like they basically released whatever version they had in mid-December, but still had so much more they wanted to do and figure out. And an extended cut MIGHT even come out in theaters, before the home release at the end of March (though I highly doubt it). But there's absolutely no way it's coming at the end of January, and it's even more ridiculous to think that it's going to include a scene with all of the Force ghosts we only heard.
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bobinator
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In reply to BoydCrowder13 • 10:07a, 1/7/20
AG
Kind of a tangent, but the 'who is manning these ships' question brings up something else that bothered me from this movie.

There were a couple of things, like Rey's parentage reveal, that seemingly come out of nowhere and even backtrack on statements in previous movies.

But then there are things they seemingly laid the breadcrumbs for and then they didn't amount to anything. After the part at the beginning when they talked about needing to get more recruits, to Finn running into another group of ex-Storm Troopers, to the resistance needing more help... it seemed basically inevitable that we were going to get some kind of at least partial stormtrooper uprising led by Finn and Jannah, which could have been really cool.
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Ulrich
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10:15a, 1/7/20
There's not much in TROS that you can't find hints and clues to explain, but there's SO MUCH going on that most of it still doesn't have much impact. Like the buildup to and moment where a bunch of rebels charge across the top of a star destroyer on horseback could have been a big plot line, but instead it's a weird almost throwaway scene. Explained, but sliced in with 50 other explanations and events so that it all turns into noise.

People have been saying there might be two movies in here... there might be more.
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DannyDuberstein
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10:23a, 1/7/20
AG
It all just keeps pointing back to the shameful waste that TLJ was. The Kylo arc was very strong, Rey's had a lot more potential than ended up being unleashed because I think she was a great character and extremely well cast (both were), and with the right approach in TLJ, both movies could have been fantastic.
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bobinator
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10:29a, 1/7/20
AG
As I posted on the original thread, I was already kind of warming up to The Last Jedi on a recent rewatch, but now after seeing The Rise of Skywalker I'm all the way on thinking The Last Jedi was actually really good.

But whether you think the Last Jedi was good or not, it just seems bizarre to me, and it kind of took me out of the moment a couple of times in the movie, for the Rise of Skywalker to be so openly hostile towards it.
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to bobinator • 10:39a, 1/7/20
The only way I can stomach TLJ is to do as Hamill suggested and consider it some alternate universe story and the Luke of this series is just a fan fiction while the real Luke timeline is still left to our imaginations.
7nine
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Ulrich
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In reply to bobinator • 10:58a, 1/7/20
I can only think of two reasons why TROS has worse critic rankings than Attack of the Clones.

One is that critics are more critical now than they were in 2002. The second you may have alluded to, which is: TLJ turned into a culture war with critics aligned in favor of a technically sound and politically approved movie. While TROS didn't reject the political aspect, it did reject much of the storyline. Thus, critics now perceive TROS as being on the other side of the culture war.

TROS was flawed, very flawed in ways that I understand critics are sensitive to, but it's still a lot better than AOTC.
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Koldus131
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In reply to Ulrich • 11:04a, 1/7/20
AG
Ulrich said:
I can only think of two reasons why TROS has worse critic rankings than Attack of the Clones.

One is that critics are more critical now than they were in 2002. The second you may have alluded to, which is: TLJ turned into a culture war with critics aligned in favor of a technically sound and politically approved movie. While TROS didn't reject the political aspect, it did reject much of the storyline. Thus, critics now perceive TROS as being on the other side of the culture war.

TROS was flawed, very flawed in ways that I understand critics are sensitive to, but it's still a lot better than AOTC.
TROS also has the lowest audience Cinema Score of any live action SW film, FWIW.
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Ulrich
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In reply to Koldus131 • 11:11a, 1/7/20
I don't think opening night crowds are great judges of real quality. Critics should be.
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TCTTS
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11:14a, 1/7/20
AG
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Koldus131
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In reply to Ulrich • 11:14a, 1/7/20
AG
I tend to agree with that statement.

As to your original question, I think it gets graded harder because it's the final movie of the trilogy and the Skywalker saga vs, AOTC being the middle of its trilogy, and I also do think it ****ting all over TLJ in many unnecessary ways played a large role too. I prefer TROS to AOTC, but I'm also not a huge fan of it in general. I can see why it got the critical reception it did.
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bobinator
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In reply to Ulrich • 11:20a, 1/7/20
AG
The first two prequels were bad movies, but the story was at least coherent. You didn't leave the theater confused or wondering why or how certain major plot points happened. The acting was bad a lot of times, the visuals were annoying at times, but the story was at least easy to follow.

The Rise of Skywalker is almost exactly the opposite. The acting is really good and the visuals are mostly great, but the movie, at a couple of turns, makes no sense and when that happens critics are going to pounce on it. I don't think it has anything to do with some kind of culture war.

It comes down to a few things for me that I can't imagine a critic getting over:

- The main villain of the movie was seemingly killed in a previous movie, and the movie doesn't even attempt to address how he's still alive. It's just like 'he's alive, don't worry about it...'

- The movie goes out of its way to undo things from a previous movie, including a key part of our main character's story. You can hate the direction The Last Jedi took Rey's story, but to just completely undo it was a ridiculous choice by Abrams.

- On two different occasions the movie seems to make a big deal out of a sacrifice by one of the 'good guys.' One sacrifices himself and the other is seemingly killed by another main character by accident, and then immediately undercuts those within MINUTES. That's another thing a critic is going to hate. It was like when literally all the good guys survived the Night King invasion in Game of Thrones.

- And just the plot being overstuffed. Even trying to think about the movie immediately afterward I couldn't remember why certain things happened. There were like three macguffins.
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Koldus131
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In reply to bobinator • 11:22a, 1/7/20
AG
bobinator said:
The first two prequels were bad movies, but the story was at least coherent. You didn't leave the theater confused or wondering why or how certain major plot points happened. The acting was bad a lot of times, the visuals were annoying at times, but the story was at least easy to follow.

The Rise of Skywalker is almost exactly the opposite. The acting is really good and the visuals are mostly great, but the movie, at a couple of turns, makes no sense and when that happens critics are going to pounce on it. I don't think it has anything to do with some kind of culture war.

It comes down to a few things for me that I can't imagine a critic getting over:

- The main villain of the movie was seemingly killed in a previous movie, and the movie doesn't even attempt to address how he's still alive. It's just like 'he's alive, don't worry about it...'

- The movie goes out of its way to undo things from a previous movie, including a key part of our main character's story. You can hate the direction The Last Jedi took Rey's story, but to just completely undo it was a ridiculous choice by Abrams.

- On two different occasions the movie seems to make a big deal out of a sacrifice by one of the 'good guys.' One sacrifices himself and the other is seemingly killed by another main character by accident, and then immediately undercuts those within MINUTES. That's another thing a critic is going to hate. It was like when literally all the good guys survived the Night King invasion in Game of Thrones.

- And just the plot being overstuffed. Even trying to think about the movie immediately afterward I couldn't remember why certain things happened. There were like three macguffins.
Extremely well said
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TCTTS
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In reply to bobinator • 11:22a, 1/7/20
AG
Well said and in 100% agreement.
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bobinator
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In reply to Ulrich • 11:28a, 1/7/20
AG
Ulrich said:
I don't think opening night crowds are great judges of real quality. Critics should be.
The opening night crowd is actually when I knew it wasn't just me and that this movie might be in trouble.

We saw it in Nuremberg, Germany, in English, so you're talking about a theater mostly full of huge Star Wars fans that are taking time out of their vacation to see the movie. Most of them have been drinking most of the day at the Christmas markets and whatnot so you've got a crowd that's pretty primed to be into the movie.

Throughout the movie there are some gasps, some cheers, etc.

But when I knew this movie hadn't quite stuck the landing not just for me but for others is that THE TWO MAIN CHARACTERS KISS AT THE END and our entire theater groaned when it happened.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to bobinator • 11:32a, 1/7/20
AG
I really enjoyed TROS, but I also agree with all of your points. Very well said.
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Ulrich
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In reply to bobinator • 11:36a, 1/7/20
There's really nothing in there that I haven't said, but at the end of it all... TROS was still enjoyable and AOTC is a struggle to watch. AOTC's script is better, but we're not reading scripts.

Maybe I'm just overweighting my opinions, but I can't fathom a truly neutral audience rating AOTC higher.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to bobinator • 11:36a, 1/7/20
AG
I don't know. I thought all of that Trade Federation stuff in the first few prequels was kind of convoluted crap.
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