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I don't get how you don't get it. Like the entire theme of the The Last Jedi was that anyone could become a Jedi. Again, the movie literally ends with a stable boy using the force to pull a broom to himself.

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I think his point was "why is this such a big deal? For 1000 generations the Jedi were pulled from all over the galaxy with no ties to previous jedi..."

It always comes back to Anakin breaking the rules. Created unnecessary arguments for folks on the internet

Oh, do people think that? I mean obviously it's not literally the case. Unless we find out in 10 years that broom kid was actually another Palpatine *******.

bobinator said:

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Oh, do people think that? I mean obviously it's not literally the case. Unless we find out in 10 years that broom kid was actually another Palpatine *******.

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I mean, why the F not? Just have Palpatine's back up for galactic domination follow the Eric Dickerson plan.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is we already knew the prequels were going to pass on force powers through a bloodline, that's why it wasn't really a big deal. Like we knew before they started that they were going to end with the births of Luke and Leia.

But then they kind of created this confusing side theory where maybe Palpatine is actually who created Anakin using the force which sort of muddied the waters there a bit also.

Broom kid is Palpatine's clone a la The Boys from Brazil

M.C. Swag said:

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People understand that just because Rey is a Palpatine doesn't mean only certain bloodlines have force powers, right?

Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui gon, and literally thousands of other jedi/sith have force powers with no ties to skywalkers, palpatine, etc.

The Star Wars saga was about Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and his being the most powerful force user of his generation (as a result of being created by the force?). It's ok (and makes sense) to focus on his lineage.

I personally never cared if Rey's parentage was important until Abrams propped it up, but I still don't understand why it's some slap in the face to have her be a palpatine. It's like people forgot the most powerful jedi for centuries was Yoda.

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But because the whole Midi-chlorian thing established in TPM implies that anyone who is a Force user has special blood, it's assumed that Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, etc were simply lucky enough to be born with high Midi-chlorian counts, and thus got to be Jedi. They just weren't born with Midi-chlorian counts as high as a Skywalker/Palpatine.

TLJ obviously doesn't doesn't get into Midi-chlorians, but the entire thematic conceit hinges on Rey being a "nobody," which is clearly a knock at the idea that one must posses special blood to be a Force user. Except, then TROS comes along and says, "Nope, sorry. It really is all about the blood."

I think you're kind of underselling why people thought it was a bold choice of Rian Johnson.

Basically since the first movie the entire internet had been trying to figure out who her parents were. I think the easy thing to do would be to have some kind of big reveal that she was actually a Skywalker, Kenobi, whatever.

Instead, he took the direction that no, she's just herself. She's powerful because the force chose her, not because she was born into power. That is a pretty bold directing choice when basically the whole internet was taking bets on who her parents were. And again, it set up beautifully next to Kylo Ren.

So he definitely didn't invent it, it's not like we got a family tree on every Jedi ever, but to take Rey's character that way when everyone was expecting it to go the other way was pretty cool.

TCTTS said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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People understand that just because Rey is a Palpatine doesn't mean only certain bloodlines have force powers, right?

Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui gon, and literally thousands of other jedi/sith have force powers with no ties to skywalkers, palpatine, etc.

The Star Wars saga was about Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and his being the most powerful force user of his generation (as a result of being created by the force?). It's ok (and makes sense) to focus on his lineage.

I personally never cared if Rey's parentage was important until Abrams propped it up, but I still don't understand why it's some slap in the face to have her be a palpatine. It's like people forgot the most powerful jedi for centuries was Yoda.

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But because the whole Midi-chlorian thing established in TPM implies that anyone who is a Force user has special blood, it's assumed that Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, etc were simply lucky enough to be born with high Midi-chlorian counts, and thus got to be Jedi. They just weren't born with Midi-chlorian counts as high as a Skywalker/Palpatine.

TLJ obviously doesn't doesn't get into Midi-chlorians, but the entire thematic conceit hinges on Rey being a "nobody," which is clearly a knock at the idea that one must posses special blood to be a Force user. Except, then TROS comes along and says, "Nope, sorry. It really is all about the blood."

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Lol The whole "midi-chlorian" deal shouldn't even be a part of this discussion. It was a throwaway line that was literally never explored afterwards. I could just as easily postulate that midi-chlorians are things that can be developed (like a muscle). Anakin just happened to be born with abnormally large force muscles.

TCTTS said:

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M.C. Swag said:

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People understand that just because Rey is a Palpatine doesn't mean only certain bloodlines have force powers, right?

Mace Windu, Yoda, Qui gon, and literally thousands of other jedi/sith have force powers with no ties to skywalkers, palpatine, etc.

The Star Wars saga was about Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and his being the most powerful force user of his generation (as a result of being created by the force?). It's ok (and makes sense) to focus on his lineage.

I personally never cared if Rey's parentage was important until Abrams propped it up, but I still don't understand why it's some slap in the face to have her be a palpatine. It's like people forgot the most powerful jedi for centuries was Yoda.

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But because the whole Midi-chlorian thing established in TPM implies that anyone who is a Force user has special blood, it's assumed that Yoda, Mace, Qui-Gon, etc were simply lucky enough to be born with high Midi-chlorian counts, and thus got to be Jedi. They just weren't born with Midi-chlorian counts as high as a Skywalker/Palpatine.

TLJ obviously doesn't doesn't get into Midi-chlorians, but the entire thematic conceit hinges on Rey being a "nobody," which is clearly a knock at the idea that one must posses special blood to be a Force user. Except, then TROS comes along and says, "Nope, sorry. It really is all about the blood."

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That's not quite it, because you still have to have the right makeup to be force sensitive. Whether it's a certain midichlorian count or whatever.

Midi-Chlorians or not, there was absolutely a prevalent notion in the saga that bloodlines mattered. Lucas just gave the bloodline scenario a bit of science. It was dumb, but doesn't take away from the fact that bloodlines, for some weird reason, apparently mattered in these movie. Until Johnson basically said they didn't. For a lot of us, that was cool and refreshing and felt like the right direction to go. Then Abrams said, "Not so fast..."

bobinator said:

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I think you're kind of underselling why people thought it was a bold choice of Rian Johnson.

Basically since the first movie the entire internet had been trying to figure out who her parents were. I think the easy thing to do would be to have some kind of big reveal that she was actually a Skywalker, Kenobi, whatever.

Instead, he took the direction that no, she's just herself. She's powerful because the force chose her, not because she was born into power. That is a pretty bold directing choice when basically the whole internet was taking bets on who her parents were. And again, it set up beautifully next to Kylo Ren.

So he definitely didn't invent it, it's not like we got a family tree on every Jedi ever, but to take Rey's character that way when everyone was expecting it to go the other way was pretty cool.

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It definitely was a bold choice, and I won't argue with anyone over whether it's cool or not. However, you seem to have more problem that Rise the that over the edge of the cliff than you do about Last Jedi throwing the idea that she was related to someone over the cliff. If JJ hadn't done that, there wouldn't have been years of speculation.

In agreement with you there.

It mattered to Anakin and Luke's story.

It doesn't matter to any other Jedi's story ever. You seem to be ignoring that the Jedi don't have children, yet their ranks are plentiful in the prequels.

Well yeah, that is also probably my biggest complaint is that this movie just didn't really seem to make a lot of sense.

This whole conversation kinda got started a few pages back of why critics hated it so much, and I think the Rey reveal is basically the central crux of that. The entire rest of the movie could have stayed the same, and if Abrams would have left that the way it was I think the critics would think it was at least 10% better. But the Rey actually not being from a famous family was something a lot of critics liked about The Last Jedi and for Abrams to just throw it in the trash is something I think a lot of the critics couldn't get over.

Fair or not, I think Abrams basically doomed the reviews just with that decision alone.

TCTTS said:

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Midi-Chlorians or not, there was absolutely a prevalent notion in the saga that bloodlines mattered. Lucas just gave the bloodline scenario a bit of science. It was dumb, but doesn't take away from the fact that bloodlines, for some weird reason, apparently mattered in these movie. Until Johnson basically said they didn't. For a lot of us, that was cool and refreshing and felt like the right direction to go. Then Abrams said, "Not so fast..."

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In the OT, we know 2 jedi and 2 sith. One sith had children, and the implication I always took was they were strong in the force bc Anakin was exceptionally powerful. That is the extent of the knowledge we have about bloodlines.

In the prequels we find out jedi are a massive group that don't have kids and replenish their ranks by adopting force sensitive babies. Bloodlines have zero to do with the equation.

Dekker_Lentz said:

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It mattered to Anakin and Luke's story.

It doesn't matter to any other Jedi's story ever. You seem to be ignoring that the Jedi don't have children, yet their ranks are plentiful in the prequels.

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And you're ignoring the fact that Jedi aren't the only people in the galaxy who have high Midi-Chlorian counts or are sensitive to the Force.

Sure, Jedi can't have children. But that doesn't mean that Force sensitively can't still be passed down from generation to generation by those who aren't Jedi.

TCTTS said:

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Midi-Chlorians or not, there was absolutely a prevalent notion in the saga that bloodlines mattered. Lucas just gave the bloodline scenario a bit of science. It was dumb, but doesn't take away from the fact that bloodlines, for some weird reason, apparently mattered in these movie. Until Johnson basically said they didn't. For a lot of us, that was cool and refreshing and felt like the right direction to go. Then Abrams said, "Not so fast..."

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I mean, bloodlines matter (personally) because I'm invested in the OT characters.

Like real life, if Lebron James or Michael Jordan (GOATs of their eras) have kids, I'm definitely more interested in their kids than i would some randos who didn't have famous/talented parents.

So if Anakin got his nasty on, which then produced Luke and Leia (the only 2 jedi in their respective generations), I'm definitely curious to know how their own progeny turn out. Bloodlines matter because the people/characters matter.

But plot wise? Yea, there's no necessity to make Rey a daughter of anyone we know. Thematically? It's definitely cooler if she's just Rey Smith.

But set it up right. Don't tease **** if it doesn't matter. And pay off things you dangle in our faces.

redline248 said:

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TCTTS said:

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Midi-Chlorians or not, there was absolutely a prevalent notion in the saga that bloodlines mattered. Lucas just gave the bloodline scenario a bit of science. It was dumb, but doesn't take away from the fact that bloodlines, for some weird reason, apparently mattered in these movie. Until Johnson basically said they didn't. For a lot of us, that was cool and refreshing and felt like the right direction to go. Then Abrams said, "Not so fast..."

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In the OT, we know 2 jedi and 2 sith. One sith had children, and the implication I always took was they were strong in the force bc Anakin was exceptionally powerful. That is the extent of the knowledge we have about bloodlines.

In the prequels we find out jedi are a massive group that don't have kids and replenish their ranks by adopting force sensitive babies. Bloodlines have zero to do with the equation.

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But with the introduction of Midi-Chlorians, the obvious implication is that the Force sensitive kids who the Jedi adopt have high Midi-Chlorian counts in their blood as well. Again, generations of Force sensitive blood or whatever can apparently be passed down without any of those people every becoming Jedi.

TCTTS said:

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Dekker_Lentz said:

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It mattered to Anakin and Luke's story.

It doesn't matter to any other Jedi's story ever. You seem to be ignoring that the Jedi don't have children, yet their ranks are plentiful in the prequels.

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And you're ignoring the fact that Jedi aren't the only people in the galaxy who have high Midi-Chlorian counts or are sensitive to the Force.

Sure, Jedi can't have children. But that doesn't mean that Force sensitively can't still be passed down from generation to generation by those who aren't Jedi.

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Do you think Obi Wan's parents, or Mace's were force sensitive? If they were, why didn't the Jedi identify them and train them as jedi? Since the Jedi we do know were taken as babies and don't know their families suggests their families aren't force sensitive.

Just think how much easier all of this would have been had Rey just been Luke's daughter.

Luke stashes her on Jakku to hide her knowing she is not safe from Ben and his minions.
Old dude on Jakku watches over her.
Han and Chewie, concerned for their friend, trace Luke to Jakku but he's long gone. They get held up by bad guys and lose the Falcon and have to find another way off the planet.

Years go by.

Snoke, created by Palpatine, is sending Kylo all over to find Luke. Palpatine wants him dead to end the Jedi and frankly he is still bitter that he got Vader to flip which ended up with him losing his human body.

Rey returns to her village to find it destroyed and Lor dead. Finds BB8 and then meets Finn. They end up on the Falcon and off we go.

She gets the saber from Maz and now it makes sense how it is connected to her.

Han and Leia can't help but see the resemblance to their old friend in Rey.

Make some needed adjustments and omissions to the TLJ. Have the First Order just go after their flagship only so that a lot of their fleet gets away and goes in to hiding to reconstitute. Dump Cano Bight and code breaker BS.
Last scene in TLJ is a dark thrown room where a robed figure sits with his back to the camera angle. A Imperial-ish looking officer walks in:

Officer: My Lord, Supreme Leader Snoke is dead. The Resistance Fleet took heavy losses and is scattered. Kylo Ren has crushed the Resistance at Crait, however some of the rebels, including the girl of interest, did escape. Also, I regret to inform you that the First Order fleet took heavy losses as well.

Robed Figure: Good......good....all according to how I have foreseen it. <Emperor laugh>

and on to EP9.

Predictable? Sure. But it would have worked a lot better.

We're mad that Luke didn't want to fight the First Order but we're okay with him being an absentee father?

One of the main characters in six of the nine movies used the force to cut a pear to impress a girl he was trying to sleep with.

"reasons"

NPH- said:

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I'm just going to drop in and state a hot sports opinion that someone else's comments made me think about:

TLJ basically took a massive sheet on "the force" by implying that this great a mythical ability that has been used by folks for good & evil for generations is sporadically spread out to anyone who wants it so they can be a better janitor of their stable.

God for a second I almost forgot how much I hate TLJ, but now y'all have highlighted old wounds.....

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I mean, he didn't get it because he wanted it, he got it because he was force sensitive. His little friends probably saw him use it a time or 2 and wanted it. Too bad for them.

M.C. Swag said:

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TCTTS said:

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Midi-Chlorians or not, there was absolutely a prevalent notion in the saga that bloodlines mattered. Lucas just gave the bloodline scenario a bit of science. It was dumb, but doesn't take away from the fact that bloodlines, for some weird reason, apparently mattered in these movie. Until Johnson basically said they didn't. For a lot of us, that was cool and refreshing and felt like the right direction to go. Then Abrams said, "Not so fast..."

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I mean, bloodlines matter (personally) because I'm invested in the OT characters.

Like real life, if Lebron James or Michael Jordan (GOATs of their eras) have kids, I'm definitely more interested in their kids than i would some randos who didn't have famous/talented parents.

So if Anakin got his nasty on, which then produced Luke and Leia (the only 2 jedi in their respective generations), I'm definitely curious to know how their own progeny turn out. Bloodlines matter because the people/characters matter.

But plot wise? Yea, there's no necessity to make Rey a daughter of anyone we know. Thematically? It's definitely cooler if she's just Rey Smith.

But set it up right. Don't tease **** if it doesn't matter. And pay off things you dangle in our faces.

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Agreed. I'm totally ok with certain families being "better" at the Force in the same way LeBron and his kids are better than most at basketball. And yes, even if that implies some kind of "Force genetics" or whatever. I'm all for that basic concept.

What I'm AGAINST is the idea that if you weren't born with Midi-Chlorians in your blood, or weren't born to an NBA player, so to speak, that you CAN'T use the Force ever, at all.

In other words, special blood can make you better at the Force, but if you weren't born with special blood, you should still have the opportunity to be a Force user. It might take harder training, in the same way that it'd take harder training for someone who's 5'5" to play in the NBA, but it should at least be technically possible for that person to still play in the NBA, if that makes sense.

Can I get a cliff notes version of the 150+ replies on this thread since this morning?

redline248 said:

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NPH- said:

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I'm just going to drop in and state a hot sports opinion that someone else's comments made me think about:

TLJ basically took a massive sheet on "the force" by implying that this great a mythical ability that has been used by folks for good & evil for generations is sporadically spread out to anyone who wants it so they can be a better janitor of their stable.

God for a second I almost forgot how much I hate TLJ, but now y'all have highlighted old wounds.....

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I mean, he didn't get it because he wanted it, he got it because he was force sensitive. His little friends probably saw him use it a time or 2 and wanted it. Too bad for them.

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still... he chose to end a star wars movie with a "force janitor".... how the hell do you defend that?

Says who?

Because it's fine? How is that a complaint that even registers?

NPH- said:

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redline248 said:

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NPH- said:

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I'm just going to drop in and state a hot sports opinion that someone else's comments made me think about:

TLJ basically took a massive sheet on "the force" by implying that this great a mythical ability that has been used by folks for good & evil for generations is sporadically spread out to anyone who wants it so they can be a better janitor of their stable.

God for a second I almost forgot how much I hate TLJ, but now y'all have highlighted old wounds.....

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I mean, he didn't get it because he wanted it, he got it because he was force sensitive. His little friends probably saw him use it a time or 2 and wanted it. Too bad for them.

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still... he chose to end a star wars movie with a "force janitor".... how the hell do you defend that?

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What is there to defend? That movie sucked, but that kid is no different than slave Anakin using the force to race pods.