Koldus131 said:

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NPH- said:

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I'm just going to drop in and state a hot sports opinion that someone else's comments made me think about:

TLJ basically took a massive sheet on "the force" by implying that this great a mythical ability that has been used by folks for good & evil for generations is sporadically spread out to anyone who wants it so they can be a better janitor of their stable.

God for a second I almost forgot how much I hate TLJ, but now y'all have highlighted old wounds.....

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Amazing, every word of what you just said is wrong

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Most of what I said was tongue in cheek, but the heart of my post still stands.

That was someone from the next generation looking out at their "binary sunset."

The point isn't that anyone can use the force, it's that the force can choose anyone to be the next "Skywalker" or "Jedi" or whatever force users are called now

Lots of discussion here regarding blood lines. Should Rey have been a nobody? Should she be a somebody?

Blood lines in a fictional series of movies is generating such intense discussion in our real world. Some are ticked at Johnson's flippant handling of what Abrams set up in TFA. Some applaud Johnson's effort.

Since this discussion is happening in our real world, to those who claim that blood lines should not matter, then I have to pose this question (also from the real world) ....

If blood lines don't matter, then why did we, as Aggie football nuts, find so much disappointment in not signing EJ Smith, who I would wager most here would claim has a hell of a blood line himself?

In my opinion, blood lines absolutely do matter, both in the real world and Star Wars. Luke and Leia are good examples, as well as your EJ example

But blood lines also aren't the end all be all. That's what Rey could have been an example of in the Star Wars universe, and hopefully someone like Demond Demas eventually becomes in our world.

EJ may be a great player. Michael Jordan's kid didn't even make it in college

The disappointed of EJ was more about striking out at RB than the player himself. A year ago, nobody cared about EJ Smith.

Just learned something interesting and surprising about the question of the Sith Fleet asked earlier. The visual dictionary is out, and curious to be better armed with knowing what is flashing by so fast on screen when I next go see TROS,, went ahead and picked it up. Those Star Destroyers at Exegol are supposedly new. They were built there, and their crews were raised and trained there with devotion to the Sith ideals. They look old, but are new. I had assumed they were three decade old vessels retrofitted with the planet gun.

This doesn't make any sense, because those are ANH-era or Rogue-1 era ships. Not even TESB era.(Look at the array between the domes--first generation it is higher--in TESB it is lower and same with Jedi, that is the Avenger-type. There are other subtle differences, but that's the most obvious.) That some kind of fleet had been sequestered away was just possible to believe--but what is going on when the Sith is building an outdated design but with a new weapon, and the First Order at the same time seems to be building even more immense crafts (Snoke's flagship) and "next year's model" of Star Destroyers?

What a baffling mess.

[Remark: Vader's ship in ANH and Rogue-1 is Devastator, so called Imperial-1 type. Imperial-IIs are ones like Avenger in TESB. Since the Devastator model was re-used in TESB strictly speaking there are two type 1s and three type IIs in Vader's force. But by the time of ROTJ, all the ones seen massed on camera are type II.

What we are seeing in TROS is Type 1s with a planet gun added. And yet they are supposedly newly built.]

Buck Compton said:

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titan said:

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Just learned something interesting and surprising about the question of the Sith Fleet asked earlier. The visual dictionary is out, and curious to be better armed with knowing what is flashing by so fast on screen when I next go see TROS,, went ahead and picked it up. Those Star Destroyers at Exegol are supposedly new. They were built there, and their crews were raised and trained there with devotion to the Sith ideals. They look old, but are new. I had assumed they were three decade old vessels retrofitted with the planet gun.

This doesn't make any sense, because those are ANH-era or Rogue-1 era ships. Not even TESB era.(Look at the array between the domes--first generation it is higher--in TESB it is lower and same with Jedi, that is the Avenger-type. There are other subtle differences, but that's the most obvious.) That some kind of fleet had been sequestered away was just possible to believe--but what is going on when the Sith is building an outdated design but with a new weapon, and the First Order at the same time seems to be building even more immense crafts (Snoke's flagship) and "next year's model" of Star Destroyers?

What a baffling mess.

[Remark: Vader's ship in ANH and Rogue-1 is Devastator, so called Imperial-1 type. Imperial-IIs are ones like Avenger in TESB. Since the Devastator model was re-used in TESB strictly speaking there are two type 1s and three type IIs in Vader's force. But by the time of ROTJ, all the ones seen massed on camera are type II.

What we are seeing in TROS is Type 1s with a planet gun added. And yet they are supposedly newly built.]

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It may be time to step away from the keyboard and relax about the movie a bit...

PS - all can be easily explained away. The Emperor (and thus, the Sith) didn't know about any new developments. They've been sequestered away. But they did know how to build planet-killing weapons, so the miniaturized them and put them on the only ships they knew. All those rich *******s on Canto Bight were the ones making new models of the ship and profiting off this never-ending galactic war. No way for the Sith to have those plans (or reason for them to care).

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Not bad explanation at all. And not the least bit un-relaxed. I enjoy discussing differences in designs and sci-fi. It did not seem trivial, because to actually re-capture the look of the ANH ship took effort -- its not what you would expect. A separation of how up to date on new developments is as good an explanation as any.

No worries, and didn't mean it to come off as aggressive if it did. It's was just the most detailed nerd-critique I've ever seen haha

Buck Compton said:

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No worries, and didn't mean it to come off as aggressive if it did. It's was just the most detailed nerd-critique I've ever seen haha

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Hahaha--- None taken. I had some involvement in the late 1990's with one of the figures involved in design at the Skywalker Ranch so the habit lingers. Did some pages noticing those differences back before the was much of an Internet discussion on it.

Buck Compton said:

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titan said:

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Just learned something interesting and surprising about the question of the Sith Fleet asked earlier. The visual dictionary is out, and curious to be better armed with knowing what is flashing by so fast on screen when I next go see TROS,, went ahead and picked it up. Those Star Destroyers at Exegol are supposedly new. They were built there, and their crews were raised and trained there with devotion to the Sith ideals. They look old, but are new. I had assumed they were three decade old vessels retrofitted with the planet gun.

This doesn't make any sense, because those are ANH-era or Rogue-1 era ships. Not even TESB era.(Look at the array between the domes--first generation it is higher--in TESB it is lower and same with Jedi, that is the Avenger-type. There are other subtle differences, but that's the most obvious.) That some kind of fleet had been sequestered away was just possible to believe--but what is going on when the Sith is building an outdated design but with a new weapon, and the First Order at the same time seems to be building even more immense crafts (Snoke's flagship) and "next year's model" of Star Destroyers?

What a baffling mess.

[Remark: Vader's ship in ANH and Rogue-1 is Devastator, so called Imperial-1 type. Imperial-IIs are ones like Avenger in TESB. Since the Devastator model was re-used in TESB strictly speaking there are two type 1s and three type IIs in Vader's force. But by the time of ROTJ, all the ones seen massed on camera are type II.

What we are seeing in TROS is Type 1s with a planet gun added. And yet they are supposedly newly built.]

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It may be time to step away from the keyboard and relax about the movie a bit...

PS - all can be easily explained away. The Emperor (and thus, the Sith) didn't know about any new developments. They've been sequestered away. But they did know how to build planet-killing weapons, so the miniaturized them and put them on the only ships they knew. All those rich *******s on Canto Bight were the ones making new models of the ship and profiting off this never-ending galactic war. No way for the Sith to have those plans (or reason for them to care).

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Thats a pretty horrible explanation due to the fact that he literally created Snoke and the First Order according to the film.

They should have borrowed an EU idea, with that one fleet that was lost in the outer rim or something. I forget the exact details, but it would have made more sense than just completely building a new fleet on a planet made of ice and lightning

I just wish the Sith Troopers had original trilogy style helmets instead of the First Order Donald Duck ones.

Karrde said:

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Katana fleet, aka dark force.

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Yes. With a concept and set-up that really looks taken from an old 1980's scifi-pulp series called Spaceways. It was amazing how much that scenario in Zahn's book resembled the volume called "Carnadyne Hoarde".

But the Zahn novels were great. I like to think of them as more true, while accepting the set-up of the ruins of the Battle of Jakku in TFA as an accurate reflection how it all eventually wound down.

Flashdiaz said:

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it's a nitpick but i'd rather the ships to be old ships... almost like a ghost ship. Yes I watched too much Scooby Doo growing up.

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Well if they are going to look like the very original Star Wars one (ANH of course) your take makes more sense. The ships being old but retro-fitted with the weapon would fit better. Its all the more interesting because at least initially you know Disney was trying to get things right---the Rogue One ships are correct--despite the ANH type not having been seen for decades or even that well photographed before modified for TESB.

really a missed opportunity not making this 2 movies.

It would have been interesting if they would have expanded on Finn and the other ex-troopers defecting. Maybe even having a lot of the first order reverse Order 66ing and turning against the Final Order. Could have fleshed out how evil the sith trained Final Order was and how the awefulness spurned more troops to defect. The final battle could have had elements of the First Order v Final Order instead of having eleventy billion random resistance ships all of a sudden show up.
This would have made Finn's arc interesting.
And throw in the Final Order being made up of Clones again. another interesting dynamic having first order non clones v clones. Finally getting rid of the clone army. full circle and such.

Ulrich said:

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PatAg said:

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They should have borrowed an EU idea, with that one fleet that was lost in the outer rim or something. I forget the exact details, but it would have made more sense than just completely building a new fleet on a planet made of ice and lightning

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The Dark Fleet, found by Grand Admiral Thrawn in Tim Zahn's trilogy.

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That's what I was hoping for when I saw the initial trailers. And maybe the return of Thrawn as well...

Flashdiaz said:

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really a missed opportunity not making this 2 movies.

It would have been interesting if they would have expanded on Finn and the other ex-troopers defecting. Maybe even having a lot of the first order reverse Order 66ing and turning against the Final Order. Could have fleshed out how evil the sith trained Final Order was and how the awefulness spurned more troops to defect. The final battle could have had elements of the First Order v Final Order instead of having eleventy billion random resistance ships all of a sudden show up.
This would have made Finn's arc interesting.
And throw in the Final Order being made up of Clones again. another interesting dynamic having first order non clones v clones. Finally getting rid of the clone army. full circle and such.

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THIS. SO Much This. in bold.

You even had Hux turning for whatever reason. Use That. I so wanted to see First Order ships say something like "this is BS the Sith coming back after 3 decades to upstage us. We don't want to play second fiddle."

At least show some of them have that reaction. And then there is the element of First Order defectors like you suggest, use that also. Between First Order that turns even as they are -- and defectors from them, you get enough "unexpected help" to tip the balance.

Hux flipped because JJ realized that next to Rose Tico and Jar Jar, he was probably the worst character ever unleased upon SW fans. So he got 30 seconds of screen time and BLAM.

I agree with the other points. Having some of the First Order flip would have been a great idea and made the ending a little more believable.

You can maybe explain away the ship design by saying as part of the emperor's backup plan he redirected some ship manufacturing facilities to exogol during the original trilogy. So they know about new ships, but to be able to create that many ships without detection they had to use old tech that was sent there a long time ago. But they figured the knew planet killing weapons would more than make up for the rest of the difference in technology.

But again, yeah, in the grand scheme of things that's pretty small.

And I said the same thing a couple of pages ago about the Stormtrooper uprising, I was absolutely stunned that that didn't happen given all the breadcrumbs seemingly leading to it.

I kind of had this vision:

After Finn meets Jannah he doesn't rejoin Poe and Rey, he's going to go with them to try and get more help. (The same way that Lando does.) Flash forward toward the end of the movie and we see the commander of a first order ship about to fire on (a planet/a resistance base/whatever) and then stormtroopers storm the bridge. They hold all of the officers at gunpoint (laser point?) and then we see one of them take off their helmet, and it's Finn and then others start to remove their helmets. We cut to another ship and it's the same scene only this time it's Jannah. And then we cut to more ships where more stormtroopers are removing their helmets.

Then as our resistance fleet is breaking apart in the fight at Exogol they're joined by some of the First Order fleet, now under the control of the stormtroopers.

I actually liked Hux. I thought he was solid comic relief and kind of a nod to Star Wars history of bad guys that don't have the force that are "in charge" but actually not in charge.

redline248 said:

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bobinator said:

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I actually liked Hux. I thought he was solid comic relief and kind of a nod to Star Wars history of bad guys that don't have the force that are "in charge" but actually not in charge.

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In TFA he was ok, not a total joke, and a bit of a rival to Kylo. In TLJ he was a total cartoon. So bad that in RoS he was replaced by that Pride guy, or whatever. Absolute waste of a character.

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It really is another FU from JJ to RJ. TLJ made him so cartoonish that JJ was like... ok just kill him.

I still kind of liked it. The more powerful and focused Kylo Ren got the more Hux realized he wasn't actually in control of anything. I kind of liked the character the whole way, but I guess I'm in the minority there.