quote:Still one of the best trailers ever.
Not to pour salt on the wound, but remember the hope and promise? If only the franchise could have delivered on the potential hinted at in this trailer, one of the greatest teasers of all time...
*** BATMAN v SUPERMAN Spoiler Discussion/Reactions ***
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Last: 7 yr ago by wesag
quote:quote:Possibly a topic for another thread, but while I enjoyed the Nolan Batfilms they still left a lot to be desired in their interpretation of Batman.
The unfortunate issue that this film has to wade through is reinventing Batman right after the three greatest comic book adaptations of all time.
We still haven't seen the Batfilm I've been waiting for with the World's Greatest Detective in action. Given Affleck's knack for crime dramas, I have hope.
As good as Nolan's Batman films were, the best interpretation of Batman is the original animated series.
quote:quote:Still one of the best trailers ever.
Not to pour salt on the wound, but remember the hope and promise? If only the franchise could have delivered on the potential hinted at in this trailer, one of the greatest teasers of all time...
They still have a chance of getting to this Superman. The setup is still there and BvS actually only further cemented the potential that not only will Superman be the public face of the Justice League but that he will be the one that inspires hope in the people. Him literally giving his life will cement the view of him for the general public and it's clear that his later resurrection is going to be a pretty big deal. If he comes back when all hope is lost against either Braniac or Darkseid, to not just rally the JL but to rally the people in revolt it could be incredible to watch on screen.
This movie, while it was average to decent, setup a multitude of stories in the DCU. Making it a grimdark situation makes the ultimate turn towards the light that much more meaningful. I may be reaching here a bit, but if you get rid of Snyder and put a competent director and editor in charge, they could have something special here.
quote:quote:quote:Possibly a topic for another thread, but while I enjoyed the Nolan Batfilms they still left a lot to be desired in their interpretation of Batman.
The unfortunate issue that this film has to wade through is reinventing Batman right after the three greatest comic book adaptations of all time.
We still haven't seen the Batfilm I've been waiting for with the World's Greatest Detective in action. Given Affleck's knack for crime dramas, I have hope.
As good as Nolan's Batman films were, the best interpretation of Batman is the original animated series.
Right. Nolan's Batman was an almost realistic Batman with all semblance of comics thrown out. It was almost a, "If Batman existed in real life this is how it would be".
I usually think alike with critics, but this was not nearly as bad as critics are saying. They seem to be disliking the story, which I thought was fine. My problems are with Zack Snyder in general: he's in love with the spectacle of carnage. He blows up everything & kills people, which neither Batman nor Superman historically does, with inelegant bombast. That may work with tolerable CGI, but his effects are always distracting.
Um..... I'm pretty sure that's what Nolan was going for. A realistic approach to the character.
quote:Truth.quote:quote:Possibly a topic for another thread, but while I enjoyed the Nolan Batfilms they still left a lot to be desired in their interpretation of Batman.
The unfortunate issue that this film has to wade through is reinventing Batman right after the three greatest comic book adaptations of all time.
We still haven't seen the Batfilm I've been waiting for with the World's Greatest Detective in action. Given Affleck's knack for crime dramas, I have hope.
As good as Nolan's Batman films were, the best interpretation of Batman is the original animated series.
quote:
Killed the waynes again, for some reason.
They killed them again to remind us that Batman's mom is named Martha. So later when Superman calls his own mom by her first name for some weird reason in his fight with Batman, they realize their moms have the same last night and that coincidence makes them become super BFFs even though not 20 seconds earlier they were close to killing each other.
Eh it's quite a bit more than just them realizing they have the same name. Batman, based upon his actions and Alfred's comments, was clearly going over the deep end after 20 years of dealing with Gotham's insane criminals. Bruce's comments about "no more good men" was clearly how he no longer viewed himself as one of the good guys.
That Superman's mother was also named Martha was rather immaterial, it was the fact that he realized he wasn't inhuman and was fighting to save someone. The rage and pain on his face as he tries to figure out why Superman said the name Martha was perfect. Him leaving and then being especially brutal to save Martha Kent was him wanting to prevent what happened to him from happening to another. It's why he says "I believe you" when the guy says he will kill Martha.
They don't become best friends because their mothers are both named Martha rather they became friends because they realize they really aren't that different underneath the surface.
It was a scene that did have a lot of depth to it, but because of Lois inclusion into the scene (which in my opinion ruined the scene) it wasn't executed all that well. It's just another example of how Snyder missed the mark on what could have been a great movie. He had the right thoughts, but the execution of them all and the editing were average at best.
That Superman's mother was also named Martha was rather immaterial, it was the fact that he realized he wasn't inhuman and was fighting to save someone. The rage and pain on his face as he tries to figure out why Superman said the name Martha was perfect. Him leaving and then being especially brutal to save Martha Kent was him wanting to prevent what happened to him from happening to another. It's why he says "I believe you" when the guy says he will kill Martha.
They don't become best friends because their mothers are both named Martha rather they became friends because they realize they really aren't that different underneath the surface.
It was a scene that did have a lot of depth to it, but because of Lois inclusion into the scene (which in my opinion ruined the scene) it wasn't executed all that well. It's just another example of how Snyder missed the mark on what could have been a great movie. He had the right thoughts, but the execution of them all and the editing were average at best.
quote:
See you're taking your nerd knowledge into the film.
Every adaptation of Luthor I have seen is driven by real estate. His desire to kill/neutralize supes has occurred because supes gets in his way. I have never seen a "aliens are evil" luthor; given the trailers to BvS that sounds more like affleck's Batman.
Lex Luthor has always been at odds with Superman because he views him as a threat to all humanity. Luthor has always been a mad-scientist genius who was obsessed with power and controlling the world ... I've never seen a major story arc where Lex is into real estate.
It kills me to read all the critics bash Luthor in the movie because they "didn't understand his motivation." Seriously? Do we need a back story movie on every character in every superhero movie? Read a comic book, you idiots. Lex Luthor is one of the oldest, most famous super hero villains of all time. If you need it spelled out to you in the movie why he wants to kill Superman, you have no business watching or critiquing this movie (that's my thought to the professional critics).
I loved the movie. It has Batman, Superman, WW, Lex Luthor and Doomsday, with cameos of The Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg and allusions to Darkseid ... the comic book nerd inside me was geeking out with excitement the entire time. I'll admit, if you don't know the DC/Justic League cannon, especially about Luthor, The Flash, Doomsday and Cyborg, you will probably be confused and think there is way too much mess in the movie. If you do know it, you'll walk out wishing there was 2 more hours to watch.
This isn't Citizen Kane or the Godfather, nor is this a Marvel movie. DC/WB has been too slow to react to Marvel's success, and is now trying to catch up to the Avengers, despite being about a decade behind. By rushing to the Justic League so quickly, it's going to be hard to draw in casual fans that were drawn into Avengers and Age of Ultron with the 4-5 movies that proceeded each to build up the storylines. But for me, who has always loved the Justice League stuff, I'm all in. I loved every little hint and nod, especially the Flash time travel sequence and the dream sequence with the Darkseid symbol.
Side note - this was easily as good, if not better than Age of Ultron, which I also loved (comic book nerd, here), but Ultron had many of the exact same issues and problems, if not more, but it didn't get criticized as much because people love Joss Wheadon (and hate Snyder). Also, I anticipate Civil War having all these same issues but, again, being way more popular because it's kid-friendly and Marvel has built up so much good will. But when I see the preview of 10 superheroes dramatically colliding on the runway of an airport, and then Spider-Man web-steal Captain America's shield, even I have to shake my head.
And now we have the "this isn't Citizen Kane" post.
So...
Superman's weakness: Kryptonite
Batman's weakness: Antagonists whose mothers are named Martha?
Superman's weakness: Kryptonite
Batman's weakness: Antagonists whose mothers are named Martha?
And people shouldn't have to read a comic book to understand the character. A good storyteller can figure out a way. Snyder is not a good storyteller.
quote:
It kills me to read all the critics bash Luthor in the movie because they "didn't understand his motivation." Seriously? Do we need a back story movie on every character in every superhero movie? Read a comic book, you idiots. Lex Luthor is one of the oldest, most famous super hero villains of all time. If you need it spelled out to you in the movie why he wants to kill Superman, you have no business watching or critiquing this movie (that's my thought to the professional critics).
Critics and casual viewers shouldn't be required to read extra material to explain a plot point if the film. The idea that casual viewers or critics should be knowledgeable of the comic book version of Lex is just dumb.
quote:Honestly, I'm surprised it took 6 pages.
And now we have the "this isn't Citizen Kane" post.
quote:A movie that needs to make A BILLION DOLLARS JUST TO BREAK EVEN needs to be watched by people who haven't read comic books. So if you want Zack Snyder to continue to get blank checks to make bloated, directionless, CGI messes, you're gonna want it to be seen by the people "who have no business" doing so.
If you need it spelled out to you in the movie why he wants to kill Superman, you have no business watching or critiquing this movie (that's my thought to the professional critics).
quote:quote:Honestly, I'm surprised it took 6 pages.
And now we have the "this isn't Citizen Kane" post.
Sorry it took me so long, but I just saw the movie today.
quote:
Yeah I mean Snyder ****ing this up isn't surprising rather it's all of the good early buzz in comparison to what we see now that is surprising. Hell even regular reviews from people who got to see it on other forums were pretty good. I don't get how things like this happen.
I mean I hate people blowing smoke up my ass so this annoys the hell out of me.
I'm more interested that this film has 30% on RT, but a B cinescore. Movie has played well with audiences.
quote:quote:A movie that needs to make A BILLION DOLLARS JUST TO BREAK EVEN needs to be watched by people who haven't read comic books. So if you want Zack Snyder to continue to get blank checks to make bloated, directionless, CGI messes, you're gonna want it to be seen by the people "who have no business" doing so.
If you need it spelled out to you in the movie why he wants to kill Superman, you have no business watching or critiquing this movie (that's my thought to the professional critics).
Not sure where you got that number, but everything I've seen has said that the film cost $250 mil to make and about that much to market. That would need to be about $550 mil to break even. Since the film is going to make $360-400 mil worldwide in its first weekend, I'd say it's safe to say the film will turn a profit.
The studio doesn't take home all of gross. They get like half.
quote:yep. many articles have indicated that the film needs $800M-$1B to break even.
The studio doesn't take home all of gross. They get like half.
quote:Movie theaters take a large chunk of that. I could be off on the numbers as it was a few years ago I read this, but the studios get like 80% of opening week and only like 20% after that. That's why opening weekend numbers are such a big deal to movie studios.quote:quote:A movie that needs to make A BILLION DOLLARS JUST TO BREAK EVEN needs to be watched by people who haven't read comic books. So if you want Zack Snyder to continue to get blank checks to make bloated, directionless, CGI messes, you're gonna want it to be seen by the people "who have no business" doing so.
If you need it spelled out to you in the movie why he wants to kill Superman, you have no business watching or critiquing this movie (that's my thought to the professional critics).
Not sure where you got that number, but everything I've seen has said that the film cost $250 mil to make and about that much to market. That would need to be about $550 mil to break even. Since the film is going to make $360-400 mil worldwide in its first weekend, I'd say it's safe to say the film will turn a profit.
quote:quote:yep. many articles have indicated that the film needs $800M-$1B to break even.
The studio doesn't take home all of gross. They get like half.
That's crazy. I read an article yesterday that was talking about how BvS deliberately used less CGI and computer technology in an effort to make the film look better (something like 1/3 that Avengers used). I wonder how much something like this would cost if they just went balls to the wall with computers?
I wonder where the saturation point will be? We are getting to the point that even a good blockbuster will have trouble turning a profit. You'd think that economics would dictate that this trend would eventually move the other way.
They could've cut the marketing budget in half and seen little difference in box office.
I think Variety had a report out that indicated the number was $800mil. But obviously with Toys, Merchandising, TV/DVD deals and worldwide Box Office it's not gonna lose money. I don't think 20Ag's point is about whether this thing makes a penny, it's that if you're on a mission to win hearts and minds and setup a 10 movie universe you probably shouldn't produce a bloated mess that only makes narrative sense to a subset of comic book reading people.
As far as the Lex motivation stuff , besides his typical "F him, he's a dangerous Alien" thinking he always has in the comics I think it was meant to be explained (albeit messily) with the all powerful vs all good speech. What I got was (probably partially due to some child abuse) for Lex nothing is perfect in this world and he resents humanity glorifying Superman as an infallible God and wants to prove to the world that Superman is just as crappy and selfish a being as the rest of us. Thus, putting in play the Africa setup, the Capital bombing and the Martha kidnapping to make this happen. Shades of Joker and the two boats social experiment. I think. I was pretty checked out by the time Eisenberg was monologuing. .
As far as the Lex motivation stuff , besides his typical "F him, he's a dangerous Alien" thinking he always has in the comics I think it was meant to be explained (albeit messily) with the all powerful vs all good speech. What I got was (probably partially due to some child abuse) for Lex nothing is perfect in this world and he resents humanity glorifying Superman as an infallible God and wants to prove to the world that Superman is just as crappy and selfish a being as the rest of us. Thus, putting in play the Africa setup, the Capital bombing and the Martha kidnapping to make this happen. Shades of Joker and the two boats social experiment. I think. I was pretty checked out by the time Eisenberg was monologuing. .
quote:
I think Variety had a report out that indicated the number was $800mil. But obviously with Toys, Merchandising, TV/DVD deals and worldwide Box Office it's not gonna lose money. I don't think 20Ag's point is about whether this thing makes a penny, it's that if you're on a mission to win hearts and minds and setup a 10 movie universe you probably shouldn't produce a bloated mess that only makes narrative sense to a subset of comic book reading people.
As far as the Lex motivation stuff , besides his typical "F him, he's a dangerous Alien" thinking he always has in the comics I think it was meant to be explained (albeit messily) with the all powerful vs all good speech. What I got was (probably partially due to some child abuse) for Lex nothing is perfect in this world and he resents humanity glorifying Superman as an infallible God and wants to prove to the world that Superman is just as crappy and selfish a being as the rest of us. Thus, putting in play the Africa setup, the Capital bombing and the Martha kidnapping to make this happen. Shades of Joker and the two boats social experiment. I think. I was pretty checked out by the time Eisenberg was monologuing. .
Interesting.
Here's an article about the money math. Like you said, they don't seem to think this will lose money.
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/much-batman-vs-superman-needs-make-box-office-get-profit/
quote:I had heard of it but didn't know much about Cinemascore. Apparently, a marketing team descends on five random cities on the Friday night a movie comes out and basically does an exit poll? Feels like that would kinda skew it to people that really wanted to see the movie on opening night and that were willing to take some extra time to fill out the card. Honestly curious.quote:
Yeah I mean Snyder ****ing this up isn't surprising rather it's all of the good early buzz in comparison to what we see now that is surprising. Hell even regular reviews from people who got to see it on other forums were pretty good. I don't get how things like this happen.
I mean I hate people blowing smoke up my ass so this annoys the hell out of me.
I'm more interested that this film has 30% on RT, but a B cinescore. Movie has played well with audiences.
Would be interested in TC's thoughts. Is Cinemascore considered reliable and a good indicator of audience response and feelings? Do execs take it to heart. Does it tend to be more forgiving or positive? Not trying to be a downer, I'm sure many people genuinely liked BvS. I'm just saying Cinemascore also has a B for Daredevil, Catwoman, Green Lantern and Sucker Punch.
I guess I will chime in.....
Big Batman fan. Not of the comic books, but started with the Animated Series, and continued through the Justice League cartoons. Watched all the Batman movies and read Year One graphic novel. I liked the Nolan movies - especially the TDK. I enjoyed Man of steel, but thought it had flaws. Hated the Brian singer iteration.
With that back drop, I'll start by saying I think the critics are way off. Not that it was perfect, but this is much better than a 30% rating on RT. I enjoyed this as much as Age of Ultron as far as recent super hero movies. Thought it was better than MoS and TDKR.
Was it perfect? No. But I give it a solid B and hope they continue this story with the upcoming JL.
Things I liked:
Batman. I thought affleck nailed him. I liked him better than the bale portrayal. And I generally think Ben is a giant DB. His gadgets were great. His fighting style was choreographed perfectly imo. Loved the batman suit. I thought he was great. Only thing I did not like about batman in this movie was he did not seem to do everything he could to keep from killing baddies.
Alfred. Jeremy irons was nails I thought.
Wonder Woman. Actually looking forward to the movie. Strong. Mysterious. Not ****ty.
Luthor. I thought JE played him with enough insanity, intelligence, and playfulness to keep him interesting.
I enjoyed the Martha/Martha connection.
Superman was ok.
I still cannot stand Amy Adams as lane. Everything about her character and her relationship with SM seemed forced. Juat think she is wrong for the role.
Superman funeral. We know he's not going to stay dead. Thought it was a wasted ending.
Overall, enjoyed it and certainly hopes it does well enough to keep this cast together and launch a JL franchise to mirror avengers.
Big Batman fan. Not of the comic books, but started with the Animated Series, and continued through the Justice League cartoons. Watched all the Batman movies and read Year One graphic novel. I liked the Nolan movies - especially the TDK. I enjoyed Man of steel, but thought it had flaws. Hated the Brian singer iteration.
With that back drop, I'll start by saying I think the critics are way off. Not that it was perfect, but this is much better than a 30% rating on RT. I enjoyed this as much as Age of Ultron as far as recent super hero movies. Thought it was better than MoS and TDKR.
Was it perfect? No. But I give it a solid B and hope they continue this story with the upcoming JL.
Things I liked:
Batman. I thought affleck nailed him. I liked him better than the bale portrayal. And I generally think Ben is a giant DB. His gadgets were great. His fighting style was choreographed perfectly imo. Loved the batman suit. I thought he was great. Only thing I did not like about batman in this movie was he did not seem to do everything he could to keep from killing baddies.
Alfred. Jeremy irons was nails I thought.
Wonder Woman. Actually looking forward to the movie. Strong. Mysterious. Not ****ty.
Luthor. I thought JE played him with enough insanity, intelligence, and playfulness to keep him interesting.
I enjoyed the Martha/Martha connection.
Superman was ok.
I still cannot stand Amy Adams as lane. Everything about her character and her relationship with SM seemed forced. Juat think she is wrong for the role.
Superman funeral. We know he's not going to stay dead. Thought it was a wasted ending.
Overall, enjoyed it and certainly hopes it does well enough to keep this cast together and launch a JL franchise to mirror avengers.
quote:
I'm just saying Cinemascore also has a B for Daredevil, Catwoman, Green Lantern and Sucker Punch.
Yeah I think not.
Sucker Punch
Movie isn't near as bad as the critic dog pile indicates. The hate is way over the top.
It had plenty of flaws for sure. You won't crack a smile once like in a Marvel film, and it could've definitely been a better movie if it wasn't so Snyder-y... but I was still thoroughly entertained.
Random thoughts:
Shouldn't have had either of the Wonder Woman or Doomsday reveals in the trailers
Cannot believe I never put together that both Batman and Superman's mothers have the same name
The Justice League teasing with the computer files was terrible. Easily the worst part of the movie
Ezra Miller as the Flash is still one of the most head scratching casting choices I've seen in recent memory
Affleck was the bomb as Batman yo
It had plenty of flaws for sure. You won't crack a smile once like in a Marvel film, and it could've definitely been a better movie if it wasn't so Snyder-y... but I was still thoroughly entertained.
Random thoughts:
Shouldn't have had either of the Wonder Woman or Doomsday reveals in the trailers
Cannot believe I never put together that both Batman and Superman's mothers have the same name
The Justice League teasing with the computer files was terrible. Easily the worst part of the movie
Ezra Miller as the Flash is still one of the most head scratching casting choices I've seen in recent memory
Affleck was the bomb as Batman yo
quote:
Sucker Punch
You must of been a teenager when this came out.
I went into this movie expecting it to be bad, but not for the reasons that it was. So I am not sure whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. As far as comic book movies go, I put this one below Spawn and Green Lantern and just a bit ahead of the "reboot" of Ghost Rider.
Beyond being disjointed and having sections that did nothing to advance the story and really should have never made the final cut, the movie was inconsistent with its expectations of the audience. At times they seemed to try to introduce characters and concepts in ways that presumed zero knowledge on the part of the audience (kryptonians do badly when exposed to kryptonite, Bruce Wayne's parents were killed) and at others they assume that viewers should just know what clown Batman meant. It is one thing to put in easter eggs like the robin suit, but it seemed almost like if in the first Iron Man, Tony popped off with "at least I don't turn green" or "we can't all be Steve Rogers." Fans would get it, but it did nothing to improve the story. Plus, if you are rebooting a story it doesn't make much sense to include references back to the previous story.
In the garbled mess of the movie there is a compelling story that wanted to happen, but like the recent Fantastic Four, the movie never had a coherent unified direction and wound up seeming to try to be too many things.
And am I the only one trying to figure out why Lex knew everyone's secret identity?
Beyond being disjointed and having sections that did nothing to advance the story and really should have never made the final cut, the movie was inconsistent with its expectations of the audience. At times they seemed to try to introduce characters and concepts in ways that presumed zero knowledge on the part of the audience (kryptonians do badly when exposed to kryptonite, Bruce Wayne's parents were killed) and at others they assume that viewers should just know what clown Batman meant. It is one thing to put in easter eggs like the robin suit, but it seemed almost like if in the first Iron Man, Tony popped off with "at least I don't turn green" or "we can't all be Steve Rogers." Fans would get it, but it did nothing to improve the story. Plus, if you are rebooting a story it doesn't make much sense to include references back to the previous story.
In the garbled mess of the movie there is a compelling story that wanted to happen, but like the recent Fantastic Four, the movie never had a coherent unified direction and wound up seeming to try to be too many things.
And am I the only one trying to figure out why Lex knew everyone's secret identity?
F*** it. I actually kind of liked it. Maybe. A little.
NOTHING about the plot made any damn sense whatsoever, but this was no where near as bad as the 30% on RT suggests. Not even close. I never ever ever ever ever want to see a superhero fight in an urban/metropolitan setting again (really, I can't believe they repeated that, even if they went out of their way to say everything was abandoned), Luthor was terrible, Wonder Woman's story/goal was maybe the dumbest motivation I've ever seen in a movie like this (she wanted a digital file of a photograph... what???), and the plot - or lack there of - seriously has me questioning the sanity and ability of the "professionals" who worked on this thing... but for whatever reason, I hate to admit it... I actually somewhat enjoyed it. And for the life of me, I could not tell you why. Is this what it feels like to be a casual movie goer? Where you just watch something for two+ hours, are completely unaffected by it, and have absolutely no interest in the next one until you find yourself sitting in the theater again? Because that's how I feel right now. Kind of entertained, knowing I should be way more frustrated than I am, but also knowing this sh*t will never change, and just kind of numb to it overall.
Bottom line: Batman v Superman f***ing sucked. And yet I kind of liked it. But never want to see it again. And could not care less about the next one (which will be trash that I probably won't hate it either).
NOTHING about the plot made any damn sense whatsoever, but this was no where near as bad as the 30% on RT suggests. Not even close. I never ever ever ever ever want to see a superhero fight in an urban/metropolitan setting again (really, I can't believe they repeated that, even if they went out of their way to say everything was abandoned), Luthor was terrible, Wonder Woman's story/goal was maybe the dumbest motivation I've ever seen in a movie like this (she wanted a digital file of a photograph... what???), and the plot - or lack there of - seriously has me questioning the sanity and ability of the "professionals" who worked on this thing... but for whatever reason, I hate to admit it... I actually somewhat enjoyed it. And for the life of me, I could not tell you why. Is this what it feels like to be a casual movie goer? Where you just watch something for two+ hours, are completely unaffected by it, and have absolutely no interest in the next one until you find yourself sitting in the theater again? Because that's how I feel right now. Kind of entertained, knowing I should be way more frustrated than I am, but also knowing this sh*t will never change, and just kind of numb to it overall.
Bottom line: Batman v Superman f***ing sucked. And yet I kind of liked it. But never want to see it again. And could not care less about the next one (which will be trash that I probably won't hate it either).
quote:
And for the life of me, I could not tell you why. Is this what it feels like to be a casual movie goer? Where you just watch something for two+ hours, are completely unaffected by it, and have absolutely no interest in the next one until you find yourself sitting in the theater again? Because that's how I feel right now.
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