There's actually a lot of baseball people who think highly of Espada and that he was dealt a really bad hand in Houston.

He was given a bad hand. I don't think anyone would argue that he wasn't.

Problem was that he played it so poorly he actually made it worse.

Ag_07 said:

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He was given a bad hand. I don't think anyone would argue that he wasn't.

Problem was that he played it so poorly he actually made it worse.

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Exactly. He got a pair of 2s and decided to go all in on the first bet.

Ag_07 said:

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He was given a bad hand. I don't think anyone would argue that he wasn't.

Problem was that he played it so poorly he actually made it worse.

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Did he ever fail to put in an ace Cy Young contender to close out Game 7 of the WS?

Joe let Framber get away with assaulting his catcher during a game.

Joe accidently took a pitcher out of a game.

Joe took Yordan out multiple times for a PR and never let the runner move.

Yeah. Great guy. But that's not being dealt a bad hand. It's being an idiot.

MaxPower said:

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Ag_07 said:

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He was given a bad hand. I don't think anyone would argue that he wasn't.

Problem was that he played it so poorly he actually made it worse.

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Did he ever fail to put in an ace Cy Young contender to close out Game 7 of the WS?

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No but he pull an ace on accident while walking to the mound.

I'm one of the ones that will always defend the Will Harris move. Harris was elite that season and his Splitter was damn near untouchable. Kendrick just got extremely lucky

Yeah Joe was a sub par manager at bests let's keep trotting king and Sousa out there because l r Matchups splits be damned

That had seen him 3 times at that point. You have to go to your ace there (Cole) and see what he can do

Ags #1 said:

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That had seen him 3 times at that point. You have to go to your ace there (Cole) and see what he can do

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Exactly…felt like Harris pitched 20 times in 18 games at that point

Mathguy64 said:

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Joe let Framber get away with assaulting his catcher during a game.

Joe accidently took a pitcher out of a game.

Joe took Yordan out multiple times for a PR and never let the runner move.

Yeah. Great guy. But that's not being dealt a bad hand. It's being an idiot.

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I'm not going to argue with the other stuff, but am I missing something on what came out about the Framber situation? You keep saying it as if you know exactly how the entire situation went down.

lol he left him in the game and did absolutely nothing about it. And if you are talking about intent: frmaber 100000% meant to hit Salazar

Joe was a giant vag: he was their friends and not their manager. I was never a dusty fan but he got us a ring. Imagine if frmaber did that when dusty was manager?

Ags #1 said:

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That had seen him 3 times at that point. You have to go to your ace there (Cole) and see what he can do

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had Cole ever come in as a reliever?

Ags #1 said:

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lol he left him in the game and did absolutely nothing about it

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As for leaving him in the game, I think there are no other managers who would have pulled him immediately after that pitch, which was in the middle of an AB. That pitch happened during the last batter in the 5th and he did not go back out in the 6th.

And as far as doing nothing about it, again, no one on this board can say with 100% certainty he did nothing behind the scenes. You have no idea if he recommended or tried to punish and GM, owner, or MLBPA stopped it. You have no idea he didn't recommend or try a punishment either.

2015 certainly could let us know what he heard about the situation and set it straight.

Dusty may have pulled him right then and there and then told the media he is an *******:

It's the last game of the ws. There are numerous examples of starters coming in for a few to close game. Heck Clemens threw a few when Burke sent us to the ws. It's not hard, throw your best arm when it matters most and see what happens. If Cole even gives up a hit sure go to someone else but see what he can do

Ags #1 said:

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Joe was a giant vag: he was their friends and not their manager. I was never a dusty fan but he got us a ring. Imagine if frmaber did that when dusty was manager?

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Dusty wouldn't have pulled him mid AB after that pitch.

I don't know if Dusty sits him either. He's a baseball guy and considered a players manager too. He managed Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent who literally got into a fight in the dugout in the 2nd inning of a game and continued to play in that the same game.

Ok agree to disagree. I bet Joe gave him a pat on the back and said just don't go that again. But like you said nobody has a clue.

Ags #1 said:

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Ok agree to disagree. I bet Joe gave him a pat on the back and said just don't go that again. But like you said nobody has a clue.

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We will disagree then. But in that fight, Jeff Kent put his hands around Barry's neck and still didn't get benched by Dusty.

Well one is the best hitter in the history of the game. The other is a head case who tries to hurt his catcher because he didn't like a pitch he called. I just don't see how anyone could argue frmaber didn't do it on purpose and nothing was done about it: not even a suspension. Either Joe had no balls (most likely) or someone above him said let it go

Ags #1 said:

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Well one is the best hitter in the history of the game. The other is a head case who tries to hurt his catcher because he didn't like a pitch he called. I just don't see how anyone could argue frmaber didn't do it on purpose and nothing was done about it: not even a suspension. Either Joe had no balls (most likely) or someone above him said let it go

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Joe has no balls…look at how he handled umpires

Look, you guys can argue the strategy vs. the Nationals until time immortal, but the truth is never going to change.

We were winning.
My ex-wife said, "Well this game is over, I'm going to take a shower and go to bed."
Her voice was electronically transmitted through the TV to Heaven then back down to Minute Maid Park via the Official Sports Jinx Department
We blew the lead and lost the World Series.

whoa, whoa, whoa, Espada was dealt a bad hand?

he went to the playoffs in 2024 with:

Jose Altuve
Yordan Alvarez
Alex Bregman
Jeremy Pena
Kyle Tucker

Hunter Brown
Framber Valdez
Bryan Abreu
Josh Hader
Ryan Pressly

the other 29 managers in MLB would have killed to take that much talent into a home wildcard series

CharleyKerfeld said:

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Look, you guys can argue the strategy vs. the Nationals until time immortal, but the truth is never going to change.

We were winning.
My ex-wife said, "Well this game is over, I'm going to take a shower and go to bed."
Her voice was electronically transmitted through the TV to Heaven then back down to Minute Maid Park via the Official Sports Jinx Department
We blew the lead and lost the World Series.

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That would've made me get divorced, too.

Jackal99 said:

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CharleyKerfeld said:

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Look, you guys can argue the strategy vs. the Nationals until time immortal, but the truth is never going to change.

We were winning.
My ex-wife said, "Well this game is over, I'm going to take a shower and go to bed."
Her voice was electronically transmitted through the TV to Heaven then back down to Minute Maid Park via the Official Sports Jinx Department
We blew the lead and lost the World Series.

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That would've made me get divorced, too.

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It took 6 more years, but I got there eventually!

W said:

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whoa, whoa, whoa, Espada was dealt a bad hand?

he went to the playoffs in 2024 with:

Jose Altuve
Yordan Alvarez
Alex Bregman
Jeremy Pena
Kyle Tucker

Hunter Brown
Framber Valdez
Bryan Abreu
Josh Hader
Ryan Pressly

the other 29 managers in MLB would have killed to take that much talent into a home wildcard series

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Then there is 2025 and 2026, but you knew that.

You also are seemingly forgetting Pena did not really have a great year offensively, remember the slider down and away automatic strike outs?. When Bregman went to Boston and performed there, many on this board were asking where that Bregman was in his last year with the Astros, and Tucker only play 78 games while clearly using a fracture in his shin to not play in a contract year. Most wanted Pressly gone because he did have a terrible WHIP of like 1.3 and gave up some pretty big homers.

Pena struck out 3 times in Game 1. Tucker got no hits in the WC round and Pressly gave up a 3 runs in game 2 to blow the save.

Point is, 2024 had some good names and the pitching did pretty well, but offensively, outside of Yordan and Jose, wasn't super great.

I wonder if selling my season tickets to that game for a profit preventively saved my marriage

superaggie73 said:

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Ags #1 said:

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Well one is the best hitter in the history of the game. The other is a head case who tries to hurt his catcher because he didn't like a pitch he called. I just don't see how anyone could argue frmaber didn't do it on purpose and nothing was done about it: not even a suspension. Either Joe had no balls (most likely) or someone above him said let it go

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Joe has no balls…look at how he handled umpires

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I'm using ejections as the measure for this since usually when people say they want a manager who is "firey" and "stands ups for his players" they mean will get ejected from time to time. Granted, there is more to it than that, but those things generally line up.

Did you know Espada got ejected more than Pat Murphy and Kevin Cash combined this season?
Espada - 2
Cash -1
Murphy - 0

Look, I did defend Espada more than most on this board because I think the board overreacts much of the time. This is understandable as we all watch the Astros way more than other teams on a nightly basis. That being said, I said during the season Espada was not going to have his contract renewed at the end of the season and wasn't the manager the Astros needed. He absolutely has flaws in his certain areas of his baseball philosophies. If he's fortunate enough to get another shot down the road to manage, like AJ did, I hope he's honest in his own evaluation of himself. The reality is he's a below average manager, but he's not the worst. I'd probably rank him around the 25-27 area of current MLB managers.

For me, his biggest failure was not stealing bases, and I think it's his biggest in game weakness.

Beat40 said:

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superaggie73 said:

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Ags #1 said:

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Well one is the best hitter in the history of the game. The other is a head case who tries to hurt his catcher because he didn't like a pitch he called. I just don't see how anyone could argue frmaber didn't do it on purpose and nothing was done about it: not even a suspension. Either Joe had no balls (most likely) or someone above him said let it go

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Joe has no balls…look at how he handled umpires

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I'm using ejections as the measure for this since usually when people say they want a manager who is "firey" and "stands ups for his players" they mean will get ejected from time to time. Granted, there is more to it than that, but those things generally line up.

Did you know Espada got ejected more than Pat Murphy and Kevin Cash combined this season?
Espada - 2
Cash -1
Murphy - 0

Look, I do defend Espada more than most on this board because I think the board overreacts much of the time. This is understandable as we all watch the Astors way more than other teams on a nightly basis. That being said, I said during the season Espada was not going to have his contract renewed at the end of the season and wasn't the manager the Astros needed. He absolutely has flaws in his certain areas of his baseball philosophies. If he's fortunate enough to get another shot down the road to manage, like AJ did, I hope he's honest in his own evaluation of himself. The reality is he's a below average manager, but he's not the worst. I'd probably rank him around the 25-27 area of current MLB managers.

For me, his biggest failure was not stealing bases and I think it's his biggest in game weakness.

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I don't disagree with what you said, but I think you can be "firey" and stand up for your players without getting ejected. Going out to the ump for a discussion when your player gets screwed (or repeatedly plunked like Pena vs Seattle) can happen and can have a positive result the next time it happens.

As for his biggest failure, for me it was his management of relievers and pinch hitters. He consistently played R/L games with his pitchers that completely ignored some of them having reverse splits from the traditional assumptions. He also PH for guys who had great lifetime stats against a given pitcher for somebody with no discernable advantage. Not to mention his pulling Yordan multiple times for pinch runners that stood like statues on the base in close games where not having Yordan in the lineup later came back to haunt him. I just don't think he had a good feel for how to make savvy lineup changes late in games and just made decisions at random to feel like he "did something".

Beat40 said:

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superaggie73 said:

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Ags #1 said:

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Well one is the best hitter in the history of the game. The other is a head case who tries to hurt his catcher because he didn't like a pitch he called. I just don't see how anyone could argue frmaber didn't do it on purpose and nothing was done about it: not even a suspension. Either Joe had no balls (most likely) or someone above him said let it go

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Joe has no balls…look at how he handled umpires

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I'm using ejections as the measure for this since usually when people say they want a manager who is "firey" and "stands ups for his players" they mean will get ejected from time to time. Granted, there is more to it than that, but those things generally line up.

Did you know Espada got ejected more than Pat Murphy and Kevin Cash combined this season?
Espada - 2
Cash -1
Murphy - 0

Look, I did defend Espada more than most on this board because I think the board overreacts much of the time. This is understandable as we all watch the Astros way more than other teams on a nightly basis. That being said, I said during the season Espada was not going to have his contract renewed at the end of the season and wasn't the manager the Astros needed. He absolutely has flaws in his certain areas of his baseball philosophies. If he's fortunate enough to get another shot down the road to manage, like AJ did, I hope he's honest in his own evaluation of himself. The reality is he's a below average manager, but he's not the worst. I'd probably rank him around the 25-27 area of current MLB managers.

For me, his biggest failure was not stealing bases, and I think it's his biggest in game weakness.

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He's the very definition of milquetoast in all areas. He is meek and timid when it comes to his style of play, the way he managed players/dugout, and the way he handled umpires. Just look at how nonchalant our players play the game. Maybe I'm projecting that on Espada, but it sure feels like a reflection on him and how he carries himself.

I think Joe's shortcomings are lumped into just lack of in-game strategical moves.

He just sits back and lets things unfold rather than being on the offensive and making moves throughout the game to create action. He was always reactive and not proactive.

I want a manger who's going to put pressure on the other team. The White Sox and that double steal in a bunt situation was genius.

Joe would never do anything like that and when you're already playing with the deck stacked against you talent wise you've got to be able to create pressure and create some sort of advantage.

Sending guys out there with the attitude of 'Keep plugging along and things will fall our way' isn't a strategy.

My point is how many teams on a nightly basis are you watching to see if their managers are going to the umps to talk to them if they have a guy repeatedly getting plunked? I also agree standing up for players goes beyond getting ejected, which I said, but I don't think people watch other managers on a night to night basis and project how they feel on Espada for that kind of thing.

The pinch running for Yordan thing bothers me less if the guy actually steals a base or a hit and run is on. That's why I feel like the stolen base issue was his biggest in game weakness. It's a philosophy that ignores what MLB has tried to do, which is encourage more action on the bases. It's hard to string together his with the way pitchers throw now. I bet this team scores a lot more runs if we're even 15th in stolen bases.

Beat40 said:

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My point is how many teams on a nightly basis are you watching to see if their managers are going to the umps to talk to them if they have a guy repeatedly getting plunked? I also agree standing up for players goes beyond getting ejected, which I said, but I don't think people watch other managers on a night to night basis and project how they feel on Espada for that kind of thing.

The pinch running for Yordan thing bothers me less if the guy actually steals a base or a hit and run is on. That's why I feel like the stolen base issue was his biggest in game weakness. It's a philosophy that ignores what MLB has tried to do, which is encourage more action on the bases. It's hard to string together his with the way pitchers throw now. I bet this team scores a lot more runs if we're even 15th in stolen bases.

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Agreed. I wasn't dissatisfied with him "in comparison" to anybody else. I was just dissatisfied that our players got plunked pretty much every game by Seattle, Particularly Pena, and I never saw him even give the ump a stink eye, much less go out and demand a warning or ask for a pitcher to be tossed.

I am too lazy to go look it up, but I have to think we probably ranked very high on the list of % of runs scored via HRs. Espada did not think manufacturing runs was a productive effort (no pun intended) and was content to just wait for somebody to get a HR, and it showed in how our offense would disappear against ground ball pitchers. As you said, MLB has stacked the deck for baserunners and we didn't take advantage of it at all.

The lack of caring about opponents' stealing bases is my #1 topic of hate. Because when you don't even try to hold them on or throw them out, is it any different than a outfielder being lazy and letting a guy turn a single into a double?

If the next manager doesn't turn Pena, Cam, and Spence (assuming he's on the roster) loose on the basepaths, I will be just as pissed as I was this year. How any coach watch Cam leg out a triple and not thing he should have 25-30 steals a year, I'll never know.