***********2024-2025 San Antonio Spurs Thread********************

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AggieEP
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 10:53p, 7/3/24
You've seen my posts, I'm mostly peeved we didn't give a look to Devin Carter. He could have been part of the developmental plan without mucking anything else up cap wise.

As far as free agents, you have to pay to play unfortunately which is why I can't understand why the Spurs wouldn't opt for the low cost control option of using a draft pick, even if we traded back to 15 or so you could take a wing prospect and see if you can get Naji or SloMo production for a fraction the cost.

Also, you've seen my posts, I always want to win, I'd be excited to be the 7 or 8 seed this year. The Astros style "be the worst team for 3-4 years strategy sucks for fans.
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flashplayer
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In reply to AggieEP • 11:30p, 7/3/24
AG
Ha, you cite the Stros build as a painful comparison and yet it led directly to the most successful run in franchise history.

If the Spurs get anything even approaching that universe no one who is paying attention today will have a problem with the strategy.
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Ag Natural
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In reply to AggieEP • 11:31p, 7/3/24
AG
AggieEP said:
How do you KNOW there were no stars to be had? The draft is a crapshoot, and sometimes you get lucky with a Manu or Jokic that turn into much more than their draft position. Giannis was a mid 1st round pick, as was Kawhi, no one thought they'd be stars on draft night, but they are.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.


Nobody knows. Sure. But the team of folks who has 1000% more information than we have clearly decided that nobody available at 8 were worthy of a 3 year guaranteed contract.

Incidentally, I love both 2nd round picks. Harrison Ingram has a chance to contribute this year. And Nunez looks like a Ginobili starter kit.
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AggieEP
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In reply to flashplayer • 12:32a, 7/4/24
Not true, tanking sucks and runs counter to the spirit of sport.

Losing on purpose is a dick thing to do when you simultaneously expect paying customers to buy expensive tickets, merch and food from you.

Plenty of teams have won without tanking, it's not the only strategy and I hate that some fans have come to see intentional losing as a legitimate strategy worth pursuing.

I don't think the Nuggets have picked in the top 10 since 2016. The Warriors were built around a number 7 pick and a number 11 pick. Giannis' Bucks were built around him (15th pick) and Middleton (2nd round pick they got in a trade). The Celtics were already good when they picked Brown and Tatum with picks they got from Brooklyn. No tanking needed and since then they've been hyper aggressive in surrounding them with players.

In fact, in the NBA, and unless my research is wrong here, at least since 1989 I can't find a championship team that was built around two top 5 picks made with that team's own picks made in back to back years (i.e. not acquired in a trade)

Cleveland had Kyrie and Lebron, but obviously a big gap since they were drafted and Lebron had the Miami interlude. We had Dave and Timmy, but again with a big gap. No one else I can find was built around top picks that were made with their own picks, and definitely not in back to back or even over a 3 year period. (Closest is the Bulls with Jordan in 84 and Pippen drafted 5th in 87 to have a team led by top picks, but that's a bigger gap than I was looking for)

It sucks to suck, and none of you are going to convince me that losing on purpose guarantees future success.
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Ag Natural
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In reply to AggieEP • 12:47a, 7/4/24
AG
AggieEP said:
Not true, tanking sucks and runs counter to the spirit of sport.

Losing on purpose is a dick thing to do when you simultaneously expect paying customers to buy expensive tickets, merch and food from you.

Plenty of teams have won without tanking, it's not the only strategy and I hate that some fans have come to see intentional losing as a legitimate strategy worth pursuing.

I don't think the Nuggets have picked in the top 10 since 2016. The Warriors were built around a number 7 pick and a number 11 pick. Giannis' Bucks were built around him (15th pick) and Middleton (2nd round pick they got in a trade). The Celtics were already good when they picked Brown and Tatum with picks they got from Brooklyn. No tanking needed and since then they've been hyper aggressive in surrounding them with players.

In fact, in the NBA, and unless my research is wrong here, at least since 1989 I can't find a championship team that was built around two top 5 picks made with that team's own picks made in back to back years (i.e. not acquired in a trade)

Cleveland had Kyrie and Lebron, but obviously a big gap since they were drafted and Lebron had the Miami interlude. We had Dave and Timmy, but again with a big gap. No one else I can find was built around top picks that were made with their own picks, and definitely not in back to back or even over a 3 year period.

It sucks to suck, and none of you are going to convince me that losing on purpose guarantees future success.


What's hilarious is that's absolutely true. The fact is there is no tried and true strategy to build a championship team. There's a whole lot of luck involved no matter your approach. But that implies the GM is irrelevant. You need to at least say you have a strategy.
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West Texan
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In reply to AggieEP • 1:11a, 7/4/24
AG
AggieEP said:
How do you KNOW there were no stars to be had? The draft is a crapshoot, and sometimes you get lucky with a Manu or Jokic that turn into much more than their draft position. Giannis was a mid 1st round pick, as was Kawhi, no one thought they'd be stars on draft night, but they are.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.


Obviously, no one knows what any of these current draft picks will turn into. However, there has been years and years of scouting and observations that has called this one of the weakest drafts ever with no top end talent. That means, there's no one that people can just identify as definitively having a path to being an all star level player. So given that there was no one that fit that at #1, the odds of finding that guy at #8 were even lower.

To address your next post, you're upset we didn't pick Carter, whose absolute best case scenario is being Derrick White? We all love Derrick White and he's become a valuable part of a championship team, but he's a role player. We're going to eventually package those Minnesota picks in a trade for an all star level player, but you're fuming because we passed on taking a 22 year old who might turn into a really good role player.

I just really don't understand why that's the hill you want to die on. It's pretty obvious that we're maintaining flexibility for next offseason while still being in position if the right kind of deal comes available now (potentially Markannen). 2025 draft has about 6 or 7 dudes that would have easily gone #1 in the 24 draft and we may have multiple lottery picks, plus we'll have a ton of cap space to sign or trade for another big piece to go next to Wemby. The Chris Paul signing was clearly a sign that we're taking that next step by adding a veteran that knows how to be successful in the league and will hold the young guys accountable, but we also didn't go throw stupid contracts at guys that wouldn't have gotten us out of the first round. We're going to be a better and more competitive team this year, but the west is loaded and there's not a move we could have made that would have turned us into a contender this year. Let the young guys continue to develop and we get the added benefit of one of the best PGs of all time teaching them the subtleties of the game and holding them accountable at the same time.
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AggieEP
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In reply to Ag Natural • 1:31a, 7/4/24
Agreed, you need a strategy, and the unifying theme that I found looking through teams that have won recently has been aggressiveness.

Toronto getting Kawhi
Boston getting Jrue and Porzingis
Lakers getting AD
Heat Super Friends


It's a pretty consistent theme, I'd even say our trade of George Hill for Kawhi was an aggressive move in Spurs terms, and that netted us an extra championship. (should have been 2) Now timing matters here, and you have to be aggressive at the right time and for the right players. So there must be a balance between aggressiveness and recklessness, which perhaps the Spurs are maintaining, who knows. To me though it just feels as if the approach is lacking in boldness and daring and hinges on some assumptions (free agents signing with us or lucky lottery balls) when we have the assets in hand to be aggressive right now and start trying to win today.

As for Devin Carter, if we agree his ceiling is Derrick White, then you should be pissed too because we just missed out on getting Derrick White production for a 4 year 30 million dollar contract instead of a 4 year 120 million dollar contract. That's a big miss if he is Derrick White good.
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West Texan
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In reply to AggieEP • 1:56a, 7/4/24
AG
Quote:
it's hard to understand the logic of not taking a chance on finding another star with that 8 pick


AggieEP said:
As for Devin Carter, if we agree his ceiling is Derrick White, then you should be pissed too because we just missed out on getting Derrick White production for a 4 year 30 million dollar contract instead of a 4 year 120 million dollar contract. That's a big miss if he is Derrick White good.


You're changing your argument for the sake of being upset. There was no one available at #8 that the Spurs front office could identify as someone that could potentially develop into a star. They traded 1 asset for 2 future assets. Not hard to understand.

I also don't think you understand how "ceilings" work for players. That's a projection of the absolute best case scenario for that particular player. We would all love to have Derrick White 2.0, but Carter is just as likely (if not more so) to develop into Davion Mitchell 2.0. And once again, even if he became the best realized version of himself possible, he's still a role player, not a star. Role players help out contending teams over the top, not turn lottery teams into contenders.
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flashplayer
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In reply to AggieEP • 7:18a, 7/4/24
AG
But you ignore Boston drafting Tatum and Brown? 2 guys who went in the top 3 in back to back drafts? Yeah, ok. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Smart was also a top 6 pick 2 years before the first of those guys. I don't remember what trades / signings they used draft capital in but they had a crap ton of picks those years also.

The event that led to most of that success for them was being willing to sacrifice winning by trading their stars after the rent a championship team faded and accumulating draft capital. Then they hit luck 3 times with good picks that turned into studs.

They had one year of finishing 12th sandwiched between a bunch of 1st round knockouts where they finished ~ 7th and never really had a chance. They also played in a conference that absolutely sucked. The Spurs don't find themselves in as favorable waters for competing.
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flashplayer
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In reply to AggieEP • 7:34a, 7/4/24
AG
AggieEP said:
Agreed, you need a strategy, and the unifying theme that I found looking through teams that have won recently has been aggressiveness.

Toronto getting Kawhi
Boston getting Jrue and Porzingis
Lakers getting AD
Heat Super Friends


It's a pretty consistent theme, I'd even say our trade of George Hill for Kawhi was an aggressive move in Spurs terms, and that netted us an extra championship. (should have been 2) Now timing matters here, and you have to be aggressive at the right time and for the right players. So there must be a balance between aggressiveness and recklessness, which perhaps the Spurs are maintaining, who knows. To me though it just feels as if the approach is lacking in boldness and daring and hinges on some assumptions (free agents signing with us or lucky lottery balls) when we have the assets in hand to be aggressive right now and start trying to win today.

As for Devin Carter, if we agree his ceiling is Derrick White, then you should be pissed too because we just missed out on getting Derrick White production for a 4 year 30 million dollar contract instead of a 4 year 120 million dollar contract. That's a big miss if he is Derrick White good.


Derrick White also had several years of meh production before he turned into something more valuable.

I think they get pretty aggressive next summer, adding 1-2 eventual all star caliber players in the draft and landing a pretty big free agent or two plus some vets that want to win. Fall of next year will be exciting.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to AggieEP • 7:39a, 7/4/24
AG
AggieEP said:
How do you KNOW there were no stars to be had? The draft is a crapshoot, and sometimes you get lucky with a Manu or Jokic that turn into much more than their draft position. Giannis was a mid 1st round pick, as was Kawhi, no one thought they'd be stars on draft night, but they are.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Are Giannis, Jokic, and Manu the typical outcome or the outliers?
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to AggieEP • 7:50a, 7/4/24
AG
AggieEP said:
You've seen my posts, I'm mostly peeved we didn't give a look to Devin Carter. He could have been part of the developmental plan without mucking anything else up cap wise.

As far as free agents, you have to pay to play unfortunately which is why I can't understand why the Spurs wouldn't opt for the low cost control option of using a draft pick, even if we traded back to 15 or so you could take a wing prospect and see if you can get Naji or SloMo production for a fraction the cost.

Also, you've seen my posts, I always want to win, I'd be excited to be the 7 or 8 seed this year. The Astros style "be the worst team for 3-4 years strategy sucks for fans.
I can understand not wanting to miss on Carter, but like others said, we don't know what he will become, and even those of us that liked him a lot (like me) didn't think his likely outcome would be a Derrick White level starter.

And remember that Derrick White's first five seasons in the NBA were 11.5ppg, 3.3rpg, 3.8apg, .442 FG% .340 3pt%. And Derrick was a ready to play 23yo senior.

Naji Marshall and SloMo were both guys that I was promoting for a couple months on here.

If our off season was Castle+Carter+Nunez+Ingram then signing Paul for 11MM and Naji or SloMo for the rest of the space, we have too many players, so who are you getting rid of? Also, Naji would have to want to sign with us over having a big role on the team that just went to he Finals or SloMo would have to choose us over GSW.

There were not really any wing prospects available that would give you the type of player archetype of Naji or SloMo available. We think they wanted Salaun, but he went 6th and he is a long term project.

Even making all those moves, I don't think this Spurs team is a top 6 team in the West. Remember Memphis will be much better with JaMorant back all year. We are still likely a bottom 5 in the West team. Even with a Warriors drop off, they still had 46 wins and we had 22. Don't think we are jumping them (and Memphis and Houston)
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to AggieEP • 7:54a, 7/4/24
AG
Quote:

It sucks to suck, and none of you are going to convince me that losing on purpose guarantees future success.
Nothing guarantees future success. Acquiring multiple top level players at team-beneficial contracts is the best way to build and that can happen a variety of ways. The easiest way to have control over it is your scouting, drafting, and development.
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Guitarsoup
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9:49a, 7/4/24
AG
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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2:02p, 7/4/24
AG
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Guitarsoup
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2:37p, 7/4/24
AG
Golden State:

Loses:
Klay
CP3

Gains:
SloMo
Hield
Melton

Not sure they are going to drop much. Hield is probably the better defender of the two at this point. SloMo and Melton are big defensive upgrades. Paul is hard to lose, but Podz and Kuminga should continue improving.
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MookieBlaylock
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4:34p, 7/4/24
AG
Still ain't gonna make the playoffs

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West Texan
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8:26p, 7/4/24
AG
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Guitarsoup
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2:19p, 7/5/24
AG
That seems like a lot



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West Texan
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2:54p, 7/5/24
AG
Orlando has to lock in young talent whenever they can because they've never been able to draw major free agents and they have a history of losing their big time guys. Probably too much for Wagner, but he's a very good and versatile guy.
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Ag Natural
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10:29p, 7/5/24
AG
Are we allowed to talk about how freaking rediculous it is that a crappy basketball player just got drafted and received a 4 year contract with the Lakers? The media seems to be terrified to call this out. Bronny wasn't a borderline prospect. He's a non-prospect who couldn't even start for his bad college team. This is insane.
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West Texan
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In reply to Ag Natural • 10:33p, 7/5/24
AG
Ag Natural said:
Are we allowed to talk about how freaking rediculous it is that a crappy basketball player just got drafted and received a 4 year contract with the Lakers? The media seems to be terrified to call this out. Bronny wasn't a borderline prospect. He's a non-prospect who couldn't even start for his bad college team. This is insane.


**** the lakers.
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Ag Natural
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In reply to West Texan • 10:38p, 7/5/24
AG
West Texan said:
Ag Natural said:
Are we allowed to talk about how freaking rediculous it is that a crappy basketball player just got drafted and received a 4 year contract with the Lakers? The media seems to be terrified to call this out. Bronny wasn't a borderline prospect. He's a non-prospect who couldn't even start for his bad college team. This is insane.


**** the lakers.


I literally can't think of a remotely similar thing ever happening. The closest is Giannis's brothers but at least those guys are 6'9" and above. They actually had potential like their brother. Bronny is 6'2" and can't shoot. I love the comparisons to the Griffey father and son episode. The reality is Jr was basically the best prospect in 20 years. Meanwhile Bronny can't even start on P5 college teams.

Convincing the Lakers to waste a roster spot is one of the great power moves of all time. And to have the coaching staff immediately go on the offensive trying to convince everyone that Bronny earned that spot. It's crazy horse***** Nobody wants to root against the kid but he's been put into a nowin situation. I'll admit that I hope he crashes and burns. 1000s of players are as good or better and don't get 1% of the opportunity he's getting.
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superunknown
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In reply to West Texan • 7:13a, 7/6/24
AG
West Texan said:
Ag Natural said:
Are we allowed to talk about how freaking rediculous it is that a crappy basketball player just got drafted and received a 4 year contract with the Lakers? The media seems to be terrified to call this out. Bronny wasn't a borderline prospect. He's a non-prospect who couldn't even start for his bad college team. This is insane.


**** the lakers.


Always and forever.
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West Texan
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10:44a, 7/6/24
AG
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LawHall88
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10:47a, 7/6/24
AG
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FTAG 2000
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10:59a, 7/6/24
AG
Lebron getting his podcast buddy the HC job and his kid a bench spot are beautiful things if you want to see that franchise continuing to suck.

Reminds me of the end with Kobe when he was chucking up 20 shots a game and taking the air out of the Lakers O when on the floor.
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West Texan
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11:27a, 7/6/24
AG
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Guitarsoup
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12:23p, 7/6/24
AG


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LawHall88
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12:27p, 7/6/24
AG
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 12:33p, 7/6/24
AG
Guitarsoup said:


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TheNotoriousP.I.P.
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12:33p, 7/6/24
AG
I wonder what we are looking to send out in this Demar three teamer then
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to TheNotoriousP.I.P. • 12:44p, 7/6/24
AG
A top 55 protected pick
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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In reply to TheNotoriousP.I.P. • 1:06p, 7/6/24
AG
TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:
I wonder what we are looking to send out in this Demar three teamer then
25 second rounders or a heavily protected 1st in 2045. Probably Take back Huerter
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West Texan
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In reply to HummingbirdSaltalamacchia • 1:17p, 7/6/24
AG
HummingbirdSaltalamacchia said:
TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:
I wonder what we are looking to send out in this Demar three teamer then
25 second rounders or a heavily protected 1st in 2045. Probably Take back Huerter


I think I'd prefer Barnes, but I've always like Huerter.
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