***** USMNT vs The Netherlands WC R16 Game Thread (12/3) *****

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JJxvi
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7:49a, 12/13/22
AG
I don't see any way that Berhalter takes any blame here except regarding after the fact in the media (which is at least after everything that anybody actually cares about is over).

Reyna is the bad guy. It's clear now that we used Jordan Morris in the Wales match only because Reyna acted like a little *****.

Reyna's role is not a Berhalter problem. Reyna was behind Weah and Pulisic, and yes, behind all our midfielders either by merit or by tactical decision. He's also just factually not the best player on the bench that plays all those roles either, which is Aaronson. In fact, I'm sure Gregg, had to tell Brenden that he wasn't starting too, I wonder how that went? Not really, it obviously went totally fine, and player worked hard and made an effort to fill the role he was given.

I guess it is a mistake to have everything bubble over now in the media for Berhalter, but whatever, I could give a rats ass about the millionaire teenage soccer stars widdle feewings on how it was supposed to be secret vs like actually throwing a fit, pouting, and quitting on the team and country around the first game at the biggest tournament in the world, especially from a kid so young he wouldn't even be on most of our peer rosters and someone who's greatest claim to fame in US Soccer is who his daddy is.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to JJxvi • 8:03a, 12/13/22
AG
Reyna pouted and ****ed off during practice. Not a game. Not a game. We talkin about practice....

And he was called out. He apologized to his team and made up for it.

The lack of playing time made sense.

Ggg couldn't take it that he was made out to be the bad coach for not playing Reyna. So he tells "off the record" about an anonymous player. Of course it gets out.

Ggg already decided before the matches that Reyna would only play a little bit? Why even call him if that's the case? How could he possibly determine before the matches if he needed to bring in Gio or not?

They both share some responsibility in this.

Neither is a bad guy. Neither is a good guy.

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oh no
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In reply to Rudyjax • 8:30a, 12/13/22
AG
Chuck Cunningham said:
Ggg already decided before the matches that Reyna would only play a little bit? Why even call him if that's the case? How could he possibly determine before the matches if he needed to bring in Gio or not?
Although he had been playing well for Dortmund leading up to the World Cup, he had a knock or soft tissue tweak or something in his final match before Qatar that caused BvB to sub him at half time. Speculation here, but I wonder if Greggg was planning for him to be eased into fitness in Qatar as the training and matches progressed. Also, if Greggg sees Gio as a right winger and likes the way Tim Weah has been playing and what he brings better, then he might have just been prepping Gio to not start and then Gio couldn't handle that news. I don't know if there's a ton of fault in Greggg on how he handled it initially or what his plan was.

Regardless, Greggg's plan isn't the (main) issue. Greggg's handling of Gio's attitude in Qatar isn't the issue. Greggg bragging and deflecting and providing excuses publicly after Qatar by talking about how he handled an "anonymous" player is the issue and it's a huge one, IMO. One that should cause major hesitations in extending him for another cycle.

The reason I say his plan isn't the main issue is because Brendan and Gio can play #10 and our MMA midfield was too gassed by the fourth match. In future camps, the coaches need to get some of our best wingers playing centrally in the midfield more often or start using some of them as a false 9 or playing with a 4-4-2 and using winger types like Weah and Sargent as the two forwards, since we can't find a true center forward striker. In the midfield in Qatar, we had Acosta who Greggg was willing to sub in for Adams or as a second 6 defensively, but sparingly. However, Greggg clearly didn't trust Luca de la Torre (possible fitness issues with him, coming off injury) or Roldan in the midfield if he needed to sub out Musah or McKennie. We need equally as talented depth at midfield or we need to do something else to be able to make it deep in a tournament. That's where you've got winger pieces like Brendan, Giovani, and Pulisic who can play as a CAM if you had worked on it more in camps over the prior 2+ years.
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JJxvi
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8:31a, 12/13/22
AG
I dont really care about any of this post tournament **** at all except for entertainment. Id be pissed too, if I was being blamed for ****ing a world cup by a bunch of fans who already had it in for me (nepotism!) because i didn't play the one player who has a daddy more famous than me who couldnt be a good teammate.

Im not worried in the least about this still being some sort of respect issue four years from now. If anything i hope the media attention will force player to look in the mirror some, but you never know, people will probably affirm him because "Ggg!"

But on the other side? One player ****ing pouts after not starting in the first ****ing game in 8.5 years. Biggest games in a decade. **** you, buddy. And I have really liked Reyna.
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JJxvi
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8:33a, 12/13/22
AG
Reyna almost certainly would have played against Wales. Literally all the ****ing fans were like "wheres Reyna!?" And now we see by Reynas own admission that it was his own ****ing fault leading up to that game. Incredibly selfish.

I mean, yeah, Ronaldo gets pissed that he gets subbed off and I think hes a huge ******* and a team cancer, but this kid is at the very birth of his career, never really done **** yet, and he cant handle helping the team by being only an end of game sub?
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jeffk
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8:37a, 12/13/22
AG
I would like someone to ask Claudio why he or his wife decided to leak their grievances during the WC.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to JJxvi • 8:37a, 12/13/22
AG
Who is saying Reyna wasn't wrong?
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Aston94
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In reply to JJxvi • 8:48a, 12/13/22
AG
It's okay to say they both did something wrong. It really is.
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tysker
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In reply to Rudyjax • 8:57a, 12/13/22
AG
Quote:
Ggg couldn't take it that he was made out to be the bad coach for not playing Reyna. So he tells "off the record" about an anonymous player. Of course it gets out.
You knew this information was going to come out eventually; I don't think many of us thought it was would happen week later and under these circumstances. (actually, this story feels like an old school Grant Wahl exclusive, RIP)

On the record, Gregg said Gio had a knock and wasn't fit. Gio then said he was 100% and created a minor ****storm and throwing Gregg and teh staff under a bus. Apparently Gio's attitude was so bad his own teammates were willing to send him home. Was Gregg was protecting Gio and the team?

Watch the hotel lobby video again after the Iran game and clearly Gio is in a different headspace than the others


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tysker
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In reply to Aston94 • 8:59a, 12/13/22
AG
Aston94 said:
It's okay to say they both did something wrong. It really is.
Besides being naive about the 'off the record' conversation what exactly did Gregg do wrong?
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PatAg
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:09a, 12/13/22
AG
KCup17 said:
That's a stretch considering Gio normally doesn't start for the USMNT and comes off the bench often for Dortmund.
He's a start for Dortmund, and a main cog in their team. He only really comes off the bench when he has been coming off injuries, or the usual 'lots of game in a short window'.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to tysker • 9:10a, 12/13/22
AG
tysker said:
Quote:
Ggg couldn't take it that he was made out to be the bad coach for not playing Reyna. So he tells "off the record" about an anonymous player. Of course it gets out.
You knew this information was going to come out eventually; I don't think many of us thought it was would happen week later and under these circumstances. (actually, this story feels like an old school Grant Wahl exclusive, RIP)

On the record, Gregg said Gio had a knock and wasn't fit. Gio then said he was 100% and created a minor ****storm and throwing Gregg and teh staff under a bus. Apparently Gio's attitude was so bad his own teammates were willing to send him home. Was Gregg was protecting Gio and the team?

Watch the hotel lobby video again after the Iran game and clearly Gio is in a different headspace than the others


I was thinking about that video after this all came out.

But, it didn't have to come from Ggg.

I love that still. Teammates said that's the happiest they have ever seen CP10. Of course it is, probably the first time they saw him happy and high as a kite.
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KCup17
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In reply to PatAg • 9:32a, 12/13/22
AG
I know. Yet he got subbed off in BvB's last game prior to the WC with a injury concern.

My point being it's fair to say that he is used to coming off the bench without having attitude problems. I think Gio could have handled it better but I also think GGG is a clown for telling him prior to any WC action that Gio would have a limited role. Ggg had decided before the tourney that Gio wouldn't feature much. So I see why Gio would be frustrated.
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akm91
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In reply to tysker • 9:40a, 12/13/22
AG
Quote:
Apparently Gio's attitude was so bad his own teammates were willing to send him home. Was Gregg was protecting Gio and the team?
I thought it was the staff that wanted to send him home? My understanding was his teammates called him out publically in a team meeting where Gio apologized.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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tysker
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:40a, 12/13/22
AG
Quote:
but I also think GGG is a clown for telling him prior to any WC action that Gio would have a limited role.
So he should lied to Gio, kept his intentions secret, or kept rope a doping Gio?
A team like the US get three, maybe four games in a WC and players need to know where they stand so they can mentally and physically prepare. Its like telling the offensive line on Friday who's starting on Saturday; no you plan ahead and keep everyone in the loop and challenge the players to change the coaches viewpoints.
By most accounts Gio didnt exactly earn much more playing time at the camp after being informed of his role.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to PatAg • 9:41a, 12/13/22
AG
PatAg said:
KCup17 said:
That's a stretch considering Gio normally doesn't start for the USMNT and comes off the bench often for Dortmund.
He's a start for Dortmund, and a main cog in their team. He only really comes off the bench when he has been coming off injuries, or the usual 'lots of game in a short window'.


He's not been a regular starter for BvB for 2 years, for various reasons, certainly including injuries but not entirely injuries
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JJxvi
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In reply to Rudyjax • 9:44a, 12/13/22
AG
Chuck Cunningham said:
Who is saying Reyna wasn't wrong?


Yeah, but I just have seen more of the story being about Berhalter. When the whole thing came out a couple days ago it seemed more like a more conventional effort/attitude type thing that kind of worked itself out and I kinda discounted it. Now that Reyna has basically himself confirmed right from his own Insta that he had a problem with his "limited role" that makes me pissed as a fan that thats really what it was about. That is incredibly selfish especially from a kid who is rarely available and despite what fans hopes and dreams are, Reyna has done nothing yet to be a Donovan or Dempsey or even Pulisic type player guaranteed to have the team built around him. And on another layer, this calm crafted insta story that also kinda throws shade at the coach for not keeping his selfishness secret enough also ****ing infuriates me.
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KCup17
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In reply to tysker • 9:49a, 12/13/22
AG
He didn't need to tell Gio anything. Players aren't owed anything. They need to know the tactics and the game plan and when their number is called they need to be ready. Ggg effectively told Gio that his number wouldn't be called.
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TRM
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In reply to akm91 • 9:51a, 12/13/22
AG
akm91 said:
Quote:
Apparently Gio's attitude was so bad his own teammates were willing to send him home. Was Gregg was protecting Gio and the team?
I thought it was the staff that wanted to send him home? My understanding was his teammates called him out publically in a team meeting where Gio apologized.

There are 2 versions. An ESPN reporter says it was a player vote. Twellman says there was no team vote just staff vote.
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JJxvi
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9:52a, 12/13/22
AG
He wasnt even told he wasnt gonna play, just that his role wasn't as big as he wanted it to be apparently. And then he took his ball and slagged off the game to the point that Jordan Morris was inserted at the end in a 1-1 critical opening game. I mean wtf dude, this game isnt being played for you.
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RebAg13
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9:52a, 12/13/22
AG
There was no player vote.
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JJxvi
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9:54a, 12/13/22
AG
"I made a mistake and apologized"

Oh great then, I feel much better now about your attitude for like future biggest games the country has played in a decade type games.
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OregonAggie
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In reply to tysker • 9:56a, 12/13/22
AG
tysker said:
Aston94 said:
It's okay to say they both did something wrong. It really is.
Besides being naive about the 'off the record' conversation what exactly did Gregg do wrong?


I think that's all he did wrong but damn that's a really big mistake. It breaks the trust between the players and the coach, which you simply can't have at any level of competition.

Would it have come out eventually? Yeah. Let it be a player that leaks it out after the fact but it shouldn't be the head coach.

I'm not a GGG fan but I was at peace with him getting another run before this. Our lack of a striker, which really killed out attacking abilities this tournament, isn't on him. That's a player pool problem. I thought overall GGG did well enough to earn another cycle. This is a game changer to me just because of how important team culture and trust is within a team. I think he shattered his credibility
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tysker
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In reply to akm91 • 10:05a, 12/13/22
AG
akm91 said:
Quote:
Apparently Gio's attitude was so bad his own teammates were willing to send him home. Was Gregg was protecting Gio and the team?
I thought it was the staff that wanted to send him home? My understanding was his teammates called him out publically in a team meeting where Gio apologized.
Fair enough. There is an unverified report of a team vote as well as an altercation between Adams and Gio. Apparently the issue was sent to team leadership counsel for remediation.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to JJxvi • 10:07a, 12/13/22
AG
JJxvi said:
"I made a mistake and apologized"

Oh great then, I feel much better now about your attitude for like future biggest games the country has played in a decade type games.


I mean, yeah he was wrong. He admitted his mIstake, apparently was punished, and we move along.

Mistakes are made. You forgive them. You move along. You remember them but don't hold a grudge. If it happens again, it's not a mistake any more.

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jeffk
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In reply to KCup17 • 10:12a, 12/13/22
AG
KCup17 said:
Ggg effectively told Gio that his number wouldn't be called.


Maybe so? This is the point of clarification that interests me the most. Was this a "Hey, we're planning on using you as a sub in the group stage matches" conversation? Or was this a "Gio, you're currently third on our depth chart" conversation? Or was this a "Gio, we hate your effort and we want to send you home and we aren't going to play you unless our life depends on it" conversation. We really only know Gio's polished interpretation of that conversation at this point.

It doesn't really matter what was said, but I think it's interesting.
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tysker
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:13a, 12/13/22
AG
Quote:
Mistakes are made. You forgive them. You move along. You remember them but don't hold a grudge. If it happens again, it's not a mistake any more.
Will the same standard be used for Ggg?
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tysker
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In reply to OregonAggie • 10:16a, 12/13/22
AG
Quote:
This is a game changer to me just because of how important team culture and trust is within a team. I think he shattered his credibility
Credibility with the players is what matters. Maybe we'll find out if the nature of information leakage changes the players perception of Ggg.
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KCup17
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:18a, 12/13/22
AG
Exactly. His response when confronted by team leadership is important. By all accounts when confronted, he apologized to the team, they forgave him and they moved on. On top of that Reynas attitude changed.

Now if he continues to show this me first attitude when given other chances with the USMNT then sure let's dunk on him. But his NT career is quite young so I'm not ready to cast him to the wolves yet.
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KCup17
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In reply to jeffk • 10:24a, 12/13/22
AG
I don't think the what is all that important but the when is. Did GGG's talk cause the bad attitude or did Gios attitude cause the talk?

All we have to go on is Gios account which states the latter.
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jeffk
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In reply to KCup17 • 10:30a, 12/13/22
AG
I speculate that Gio's timeline is right, but then the leak by his family about the incident made things worse.

GB and Gio talk about WC playing time -> Gio pouts -> Gio tells his parents and then they leak info to media -> team/staff decides Gio stays -> Gio apologizes -> things with team are better, but things with GB aren't because of leak
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TRM
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In reply to KCup17 • 10:30a, 12/13/22
AG
There were 2 talks according to Gio and the reports:
1st about playing time ---> Gio has an attitude ----> 2nd talk about attitude and apology.
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PatAg
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 10:36a, 12/13/22
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
PatAg said:
KCup17 said:
That's a stretch considering Gio normally doesn't start for the USMNT and comes off the bench often for Dortmund.
He's a start for Dortmund, and a main cog in their team. He only really comes off the bench when he has been coming off injuries, or the usual 'lots of game in a short window'.


He's not been a regular starter for BvB for 2 years, for various reasons, certainly including injuries but not entirely injuries
When healthy, he has started. Aside from the normal work management when there are lot of games in a short time frame.
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PatAg
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10:58a, 12/13/22
AG
He's going to hopefully actually realize he was in the wrong and take this as a reality check on his behavior.
We'll see how 2023 goes for him. T
his is likely the first real time in his soccer career he has faced this sort of thing. Though I do remember a lot of criticism of his play on the youth national teams being very selfish and low energy as well.

I dont recall seeing many articles about that since moving to Dortmund, and when he is on the field he combines well with the team.

We'll likely never know what gregg specifically said, because "limited role" could mean a lot of things.
It could be that they werent going to start him, and wanted to be careful with his injury history and he didnt take it well. In this scenario, I think it would be appropriate to talk with Gio in the build up to the World Cup about it.

It could also be he was told he wouldnt start for tactical reasons (gregg's tactics), and Reyna didn't like the reasoning.

I think its not debatable that he is a downgrade on the defensive side, both in effort and ability. Whether that is enough reason to have him in a 'limited role' I dont know.

I think Gregg definitely screwed up sharing this story in a public setting, and I dont think he is dumb enough to think people wouldn't put 2&2 together to know what player he was talking about. That's not a very 'player coach' thing to do, imo.
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Aston94
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In reply to tysker • 11:25a, 12/13/22
AG
tysker said:
Aston94 said:
It's okay to say they both did something wrong. It really is.
Besides being naive about the 'off the record' conversation what exactly did Gregg do wrong?
For purposes of this conversation we are assuming that both are telling the truth as far as timing of events, so going in to this with that assumption. Mistakes I saw in this sequence (not other mistakes) are in bold:

1. Being naive about "off the record conversation"? He was at a symposium, so many people there. Why are you talking about this issue at all with many people you don't know at a symposium? That's not being naive, that is being reckless as a coach of a national team. What is the point, what was the objective?

2. Why are you telling any player before the World Cup that your role will be limited? Per other interviews I have heard with the team they don't even tell players who is starting until the day before a game. As a coach myself I cannot fathom bringing a player in before a tournament and telling them they will have a limited role. What is the point of that?

3. Tactically, why would a coach decide that one of your more creative on the ball players will have a limited role in a tournament, before the tournament starts? Why did you bring him if you see no role for him? This was not a "you aren't starting tomorrow" talk, but happened obviously in the week of prep. Why would you make such a decision for a long tournament before it began as to any players role? I want all my players to show me they deserve to start and to be ready when called upon, not dis-incentivizing them. I respect Gregg's choice on who to bring, but this is the World Cup man, you are here to win, I want 26 players who think they are going to help me win.

4. What kind of trust do other players have in you when they now know you talk about closed door matters in public? Gregg lost a lot of respect of the rest of the team by throwing one of them under the bus. He didn't name Gio, so that meant his comments could have been about any of them (later confirmed to be Gio, but the way Gregg made the comments it could have been about any of them). Why is he throwing any player under the bus? Closed door meeting items don't come out by the coach, to anyone, whether he thought the talk was off the record or not, why are you saying it at all?

Those are the 4 mistakes I see from Gregg in this little exchange.

For the record, I have defended and stood up for Gregg in many, many ways. But not on this one. And again, Gio had some wrongdoing in this as well, as did his parents apparently.
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