***** USMNT vs The Netherlands WC R16 Game Thread (12/3) *****

66,582 Views | 1293 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by aggiephoenix02
Dre_00
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I'm assuming you mean to start one of those two and go strikerless (like...not a false 9 but a no 9)? And then bring on Sargent?

I'm not a fan of false 9/strikerless but I get others do. I personally would not want to start a player in a position they aren't mostly familiar with. Sargent has played as a RW with Norwich a fair bit. About half of their games. I haven't watched any of their games but my guess is that he effectively plays as an inside forward and very close to Pukki with Max Aarons at RB providing the width. Sargent just doesn't have the prototypical winger skillset of crossing, dribbling etc. But I agree he would be good for late game situation there to run around and pressure.
Dre_00
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akm91 said:

I think there's no way Haji gets on the field unless we're chasing a goal against Netherland. I like the Morris as sub instead of Wright as Morris gives you the physicality, speed and effort to provide an outlet and to press/defend. Would be nice if he can also do the hold up job but that's asking too much.

From you keyboard to Gregg's ears. Wright has played himself out of the World Cup as far as I'm concerned unless, as you say, we are in a dire situation. Ironically, he was brought in mostly on the basis of being "in form" in the Turkish league.

Oops.
Rudyjax
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akm91 said:

Sargent's skillset is a #9 and not a winger. Think Norwich wants to get both Pukki and Sargent on the field at the same time and didn't want to change their system. i guess there were no takers for Pukki when Norwich was relegated.

Berhalter had Musah playing as a CM even when his club was playing him on the wing. Musah's now playing centrally as CM for his club.
Sargent is playing incredibly well as a winger. Why do you think he can't play it?
PatAg
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Chuck Cunningham said:

akm91 said:

Sargent's skillset is a #9 and not a winger. Think Norwich wants to get both Pukki and Sargent on the field at the same time and didn't want to change their system. i guess there were no takers for Pukki when Norwich was relegated.

Berhalter had Musah playing as a CM even when his club was playing him on the wing. Musah's now playing centrally as CM for his club.
Sargent is playing incredibly well as a winger. Why do you think he can't play it?
Are you talking about his play for Norwich? He can play there, but he is not really good at it.
PatAg
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Dre_00 said:

akm91 said:

I think there's no way Haji gets on the field unless we're chasing a goal against Netherland. I like the Morris as sub instead of Wright as Morris gives you the physicality, speed and effort to provide an outlet and to press/defend. Would be nice if he can also do the hold up job but that's asking too much.

From you keyboard to Gregg's ears. Wright has played himself out of the World Cup as far as I'm concerned unless, as you say, we are in a dire situation. Ironically, he was brought in mostly on the basis of being "in form" in the Turkish league.

Oops.
Him and Shaq Moore hopefully.
oh no
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Just sayin, Sargent's workrate and effort tracking back and defending, even as a 9, might make him a valuable late sub when protecting a lead and hoping for a chance at a second goal.
Rudyjax
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PatAg said:

Chuck Cunningham said:

akm91 said:

Sargent's skillset is a #9 and not a winger. Think Norwich wants to get both Pukki and Sargent on the field at the same time and didn't want to change their system. i guess there were no takers for Pukki when Norwich was relegated.

Berhalter had Musah playing as a CM even when his club was playing him on the wing. Musah's now playing centrally as CM for his club.
Sargent is playing incredibly well as a winger. Why do you think he can't play it?
Are you talking about his play for Norwich? He can play there, but he is not really good at it.
Most of his goals are coming from the wing.
oh no
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Dre_00 said:

I'm assuming you mean to start one of those two and go strikerless (like...not a false 9 but a no 9)? And then bring on Sargent?

I'm not a fan of false 9/strikerless but I get others do. I personally would not want to start a player in a position they aren't mostly familiar with. Sargent has played as a RW with Norwich a fair bit. About half of their games. I haven't watched any of their games but my guess is that he effectively plays as an inside forward and very close to Pukki with Max Aarons at RB providing the width. Sargent just doesn't have the prototypical winger skillset of crossing, dribbling etc. But I agree he would be good for late game situation there to run around and pressure.
Not necessarily 0 striker or false 9, but if we had worked on a 4-4-2 diamond over the past 2+ years and gotten good at it (instead of continually trying different #9s for a 4-3-3 to no avail), perhaps we could have found that the 2 forwards used in a 4-4-2 could be more wingers than strikers from a skillset standpoint. Perhaps Aaronson or Gio at 10. CP and Weah as the two forwards. ...then you can have a forward like Sargent subbing for the #10 at the top of the diamond when protecting a lead as he provides great workrate for high press and tracking back to defend.
oh no
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There were moments either in the gold cup or nations league or maybe in WC qualifying where Shaq showed tremendous potential with his overlapping runs and pace going to goal from the RB position. I've been really excited for his future. ...Not that Yedlin would be that much better (or Cannon if he were in the squad), but Shaq's moments so far in Qatar look like maybe this stage is too big for him right now. It's too bad too, because if he were taking advantage of this opportunity, he might be finding a way out of Nashville FC across the pond to play on bigger stages all the time and really accelerate his development. I hope Greggg putting him out there so far has helped settle him down though. We might really need him on Saturday, unless Gregg is done with him goes back to Yedlin or tries Scally.
Dre_00
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Not according to Transfermarkt...

https://www.transfermarkt.com/josh-sargent/leistungsdaten/spieler/393325

7 as a CF and 2 as a RW.
akm91
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Pretty much every starter on the team has played either in WCQ, Gold Cup, Nation's League or Champions League so they've not been overwhelmed by the occassion. I think Haji's overwhelmed by the occassion.
Rudyjax
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Dre_00 said:

Not according to Transfermarkt...

https://www.transfermarkt.com/josh-sargent/leistungsdaten/spieler/393325

7 as a CF and 2 as a RW.
I stand corrected.


Carry on.
Dre_00
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I doubt we'll get rid of Shaq this World Cup. But I would hope there are better options in 2026...Joe Scally seeming the most likely.
Rudyjax
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Looks like Pulisic and Sargent are good to go.

akm91
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Aren't we all day to day?
TXAggie2011
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Dre_00 said:

I doubt we'll get rid of Shaq this World Cup. But I would hope there are better options in 2026...Joe Scally seeming the most likely.
I hope Mauricio Cuevas from the U-20s keeps progressing, dude can actually take a good free kick
Dre_00
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Me too but Scally is the same age and is a starter in the Bundesliga and Dest will only be 26. Four years is a long time but he has a lot of ground to make up.
PatAg
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Yea, I'm not writing anyone off forever, I just think the way both have played should keep them firmly on the bench the rest of the world cup.
oh no
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jeffk
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Dre_00 said:

Not to be pedantic but we need to define what we mean by bunkering a prevent D. To me, bunkering isn't defending. It's defending extremely deep with no real intent to keep possession after you win the ball.

I have no problem with defending deep for long periods especially to protect a late lead. But if you win the ball back and your first instinct is to flail it aimlessly into no man's land where there's no chance of you retaining possession, that's a big problem.

And if you do manage it to clear it to a player who is able to bring it under control for more than a few seconds, you have got to get players in support of him so that you can continue to keep possession. You don't have to commit players at pace to start a counter attack. But you do need to commit some players to midfield so that you can try and keep the ball there as long as possible.

As I remember it, Wales in the second half wasn't really a bunker. It was just a complete bypass of midfield that was exasperated by our substitutions. Iran on the other hand...maybe it was the substitutions again (and their performance). Maybe Berhalter had no intent for them to play like that but...they couldn't even find an outlet and when they did, the outlet couldn't win the ball and it didn't appear many, if any, were coming to help him to retain it.


Haha - I should have known that when I used the b-word someone would make me wish I had gone into more detail.

To me, bunkering is a generic term that just means putting a majority of players behind the ball, ceding more possession, and hoping you can preserve a lead. I think a lot of soccer fans think that playing defensively is supposed to be frantic and look haphazard (and it can in a lot of circumstances), but it should be a pretty natural change with some very structured play. One thing I've noticed about our team when we're playing defensively, is that our shape changes too slowly when we do actually gain possession. You're going to get some long clearances from the backline, there's just no way around that. Ideally you have an attacking player who can maybe chase one or two of those down and steal some seconds to allow the rest of the team to "unwind" from their compact shape behind them, but that's just not going to happen with this roster. Anyway, I think when we do gain possession and find a first pass up the field, we're too slow to shift back into our possessing shape and move back towards the middle third or attacking third of the field. Either a midfielder dribbles right back into an opponent and loses the ball or hoofs it over the backline in hopes our FW can run it down (which again never happens). I don't know if that should be blamed on the players or coaches (probably both). We're young and lacking in experience in a lot of key areas and I don't think GB excels in this particular area of in-game strategic coaching either.
zgolfz85
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talked to a dutch colleague today before a team meeting -- the dutch fans are super nervous about this game.
Dre_00
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Thus far, I agree but mostly based on their own performances than anything else. I keep hearing the same tropes of the US as an athletic, tough team. LvG even compared us to Australia.
Dre_00
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jeffk said:

Dre_00 said:

Not to be pedantic but we need to define what we mean by bunkering a prevent D. To me, bunkering isn't defending. It's defending extremely deep with no real intent to keep possession after you win the ball.

I have no problem with defending deep for long periods especially to protect a late lead. But if you win the ball back and your first instinct is to flail it aimlessly into no man's land where there's no chance of you retaining possession, that's a big problem.

And if you do manage it to clear it to a player who is able to bring it under control for more than a few seconds, you have got to get players in support of him so that you can continue to keep possession. You don't have to commit players at pace to start a counter attack. But you do need to commit some players to midfield so that you can try and keep the ball there as long as possible.

As I remember it, Wales in the second half wasn't really a bunker. It was just a complete bypass of midfield that was exasperated by our substitutions. Iran on the other hand...maybe it was the substitutions again (and their performance). Maybe Berhalter had no intent for them to play like that but...they couldn't even find an outlet and when they did, the outlet couldn't win the ball and it didn't appear many, if any, were coming to help him to retain it.


Haha - I should have known that when I used the b-word someone would make me wish I had gone into more detail.

Happy to have proved you right.
jeffk
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You're not even cracking the top 10 most pedantic posters on this board.
deadbq03
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It's at times like these I wish everyone played Football Manager. We'd be on the same sheet of music with all the terms we would ever need to use.

To that end - a cautious or defensive mentality is fine, but going "very defensive" is hot garbage, unless you're down a man against a better team.
tysker
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jeffk said:

You're not even cracking the top 10 most pedantic posters on this board.
do you mean in total posts or on a percentage basis? just on this board or across all boards?
jeffk
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Everyone knows "data available upon request" is never an actual reality.
PatAg
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I really just hope we come out and boss Netherlands
tysker
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i've already sent my email attn: jeffk to datarequests@soccerboard.texags
Dre_00
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jeffk said:

You're not even cracking the top 10 most pedantic posters on this board.
tysker
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PatAg said:

I really just hope we come out and boss Netherlands
i like our midfield matchups. if we can find a way to keep Virgil occupied we have a decent shot. fast east-west movement in the final third will be crucial
zgolfz85
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Dre_00 said:

Thus far, I agree but mostly based on their own performances than anything else. I keep hearing the same tropes of the US as an athletic, tough team. LvG even compared us to Australia.
agreed. It's funny, this guy and a German are the 2 principals for our European office. They're ordinarily both in the office at the same time on a hybrid post Covid schedule, but they haven't been able to be in the office together for weeks now, even before the tourney started. They're best friends in and out of work and just get way too fiery every time the Euros or WC is in action. They basically do it to ensure they won't get so heated that they say or do something they can't take back. Gotta love the passion. In our case, we just have to shoulder nonstop anxiety and the feeling of wanting to be in the cool kids club....and I prefer it that way.

I obviously want to see us continue to grow and make deeper runs on the national stage, but I'll always enjoy the underdog position we're in for soccer, men's side anyhow. It's a rare treat to not just come in with the typical brute American arrogance like we do in the vast majority of sports.
Rudyjax
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PatAg
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tysker said:

PatAg said:

I really just hope we come out and boss Netherlands
i like our midfield matchups. if we can find a way to keep Virgil occupied we have a decent shot. fast east-west movement in the final third will be crucial
I think we have to come out with the same MMA midfield, even though they have been tiring as each match goes on. They have just been too effective in every game.
That said, I think I would have a halftime sub ready/planned for Musah or McKennie, rather than try to leave them out too long on dead legs.
AgGrad99
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wangus12 said:

The decision to try and bunker at the end of games and concede both possession and chances is like playing Russian roulette. Prevent D doesn't work very well in any sport
I agree with you 100% and no one will convince me otherwise.

IF you're great at countering, and have strikers that demand attention, maybe I'll concede it can work. But you can't just allow possession after possession on your own side of the field, and simply clear it. You have to take the game to them; force them to defend, and keep the ball on their side of the field. That is a better defensive plan than taking fire, and trying to weather wave after wave for 30 minutes. You're bound to slip when you do that, and we see it all the dang time.
 
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