***** USMNT vs The Netherlands WC R16 Game Thread (12/3) *****

65,219 Views | 1293 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by aggiephoenix02
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Dre_00 said:

tysker said:

Or he got sick of the 'why not play Gio more' question and told the truth. Or should we perpetuate the Gio is a injury prone player myth?
Come ONNNNNN man.

He's THE NATIONAL TEAM MANAGER. If he can't handle getting asked a question like that and reacts by throwing his ENTIRE process under the bus, then he's not fit for ANY coaching job in soccer let alone the job he holds. Hundreds of coaches get asked stupid ass questions over and over again about players they don't particularly care for or are constant problems. Most of them don't respond with "Yeah, that guy sucks but we fixed it in house".
Not excusing Ggg for saying it. Seems dumb to say so recent to the events, but it's also in line with his whole VibeSquad and team building style. Definitely a players coach. I think he sees himself as a mentor to players and a guy that's been there before. Similar thing with this supposed symposium, mentoring other leaders, basically storytelling how he has dealt with a talented team member that wasn't all vibed in with vibe of the vibesquad.

I dont think he said Gio sucks, just that there weren't plans for lots of playing time, which makes sense. Gio was always a flyer for this WC. The 12-13 vote thing from another anonymous source is more damning. Klinsman probably wouldnt have even brought him if there was any suggestion that he wouldnt train hard and/or wasnt fully prepared.
AustinScubaAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
LeonardSkinner said:

I'm mostly indifferent to Berhalter at this point. Whatever you can say about his hiring and performance to date, has been said. I hope we get someone who can take us to the next level.

That said, I'm on his side when it comes to the Reyna situation. Based on what seems to be the closest version of the truth, Reyna didn't earn time on the pitch, and seemed to make the situation worse. And speaking only for myself, I would rather have a guy who goes 100% all the time as opposed to the one who goes 150% half the time.

Clearly, Berhalter is of similar opinion, because he rode MMA until their legs gave out.


He had no choice to ride MMA like that. We had no midfield depth. Gio and Brenden are really wingers though Brenden is more versatile. Beyond those two you had no real quality. Acosta for defense maybe and that worked out poorly for the US.
LeonardSkinner
How long do you want to ignore this user?
To fan the flames a bit…

A whole lot of people were quite vocal in asking, "why not Reyna?"

Well, Berhalter answered. If you were pounding the table demanding to know why, then you can't pound the same table because he told you.
TheMasterplan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
What's the deal with the vibesquad references?

The only issue I have is Gregg telling Reyna that he would have a very limited role at the WC. From a winning/talent standpoint, that seems dumb.

Reyna was obviously upset about it and probably the first time he's had to deal with something like that. In my opinion, how Gregg and other players dealt with him about it was appropriate and good leadership. I'm glad it was resolved and I hope the team moves on so Reyna can be a big part of the team moving forward.

OregonAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
LeonardSkinner said:

To fan the flames a bit…

A whole lot of people were quite vocal in asking, "why not Reyna?"

Well, Berhalter answered. If you were pounding the table demanding to know why, then you can't pound the same table because he told you.


Actually we can…Not playing Reyna didn't seem to make sense at the time, which now we know why and most on this board are ok, if not supportive, of Berhalter refusing to play him. What we aren't supportive of is airing out dirty laundry that was considered "done" and a "team matter", especially by the head person that apparently wanted to handle things "amongst the team". It's very normal to handle things in house and not let the truth go out so that an individual can save face.

….Berhalter aired it out…He undermined his own directions…he has not created a **** storm for one of his players and for the team. Can we not be mad at him for that? If you aren't then I don't know what to tell you
TheMasterplan
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The think the appropriate way forward is to break the "good ol' boy network" of US Soccer (earnie stewart, brian mcbride, claudio reyna etc.).

Because it's been a "niche" sport in the US that means it becomes a small network. Too many connected people making it awkward and dramatic.

This makes me respect Bob Bradley more since he had to deal with his son on the team and I can't recall hearing much drama regarding that.
PatAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Its all complicated, because I would argue its idiotic to devise a system where Gio is going to see limited play.
We found out what happens when your system makes you play the same 3 central mids as much as possible.
Aaronson is a premier league quality midfielder, and he couldnt figure out how to get him on the field.
Gio is a mainstay on a top tier German club, same problem.
You dont plug square pegs into a round hole, but you also dont just insert loq quality round pegs.
Switch the board out.
LeonardSkinner
How long do you want to ignore this user?
OregonAggie said:

LeonardSkinner said:

To fan the flames a bit…

A whole lot of people were quite vocal in asking, "why not Reyna?"

Well, Berhalter answered. If you were pounding the table demanding to know why, then you can't pound the same table because he told you.


Actually we can…Not playing Reyna didn't seem to make sense at the time, which now we know why and most on this board are ok, if not supportive, of Berhalter refusing to play him. What we aren't supportive of is airing out dirty laundry that was considered "done" and a "team matter", especially by the head person that apparently wanted to handle things "amongst the team". It's very normal to handle things in house and not let the truth go out so that an individual can save face.

….Berhalter aired it out…He undermined his own directions…he has not created a **** storm for one of his players and for the team. Can we not be mad at him for that? If you aren't then I don't know what to tell you

It's Berhalter's cat. People are upset with him because he wouldn't say what was in the box, and now they're upset with him because they didn't like what they saw when he opened it.

Were Berhalter's comments a net minus on the whole situation? Did he make things worse? Probably, maybe.

But if you were mad that he wouldn't say before, at least own the tinge of hypocrisy before being mad that he said it now.
mrmill3218
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
How in the world do you tell one of your best players that he won't feature much before the tournament even starts? Very strange.
KCup17
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
mrmill3218 said:

How in the world do you tell one of your best players that he won't feature much before the tournament even starts? Very strange.


Then try to double down and say the reason he didn't play was because his attitude… but the reason he had so little effort and poor attitude was due to Berhalter telling him we wasn't going to play much. Someone explain that logic to me.
Dre_00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
tysker said:

Dre_00 said:

tysker said:

Or he got sick of the 'why not play Gio more' question and told the truth. Or should we perpetuate the Gio is a injury prone player myth?
Come ONNNNNN man.

He's THE NATIONAL TEAM MANAGER. If he can't handle getting asked a question like that and reacts by throwing his ENTIRE process under the bus, then he's not fit for ANY coaching job in soccer let alone the job he holds. Hundreds of coaches get asked stupid ass questions over and over again about players they don't particularly care for or are constant problems. Most of them don't respond with "Yeah, that guy sucks but we fixed it in house".
Not excusing Ggg for saying it. Seems dumb to say so recent to the events, but it's also in line with his whole VibeSquad and team building style. Definitely a players coach. I think he sees himself as a mentor to players and a guy that's been there before. Similar thing with this supposed symposium, mentoring other leaders, basically storytelling how he has dealt with a talented team member that wasn't all vibed in with vibe of the vibesquad.

I dont think he said Gio sucks, just that there weren't plans for lots of playing time, which makes sense. Gio was always a flyer for this WC. The 12-13 vote thing from another anonymous source is more damning. Klinsman probably wouldnt have even brought him if there was any suggestion that he wouldnt train hard and/or wasnt fully prepared.

Yeah, I think it's exactly NOT in line with his whole VibeSquad style. Throwing a player under the bus after a problem has been resolved doesn't seem very VibeSquad. It doesn't scream "I'm a player's coach" to tell a bunch of people in a room that one of your players was a complete head case but look at how well we handled this arrogant jerk's attitude. That's the exact opposite of player's coach if you ask me.

But I'm beating a dead horse at this point.
OregonAggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
LeonardSkinner said:

OregonAggie said:

LeonardSkinner said:

To fan the flames a bit…

A whole lot of people were quite vocal in asking, "why not Reyna?"

Well, Berhalter answered. If you were pounding the table demanding to know why, then you can't pound the same table because he told you.


Actually we can…Not playing Reyna didn't seem to make sense at the time, which now we know why and most on this board are ok, if not supportive, of Berhalter refusing to play him. What we aren't supportive of is airing out dirty laundry that was considered "done" and a "team matter", especially by the head person that apparently wanted to handle things "amongst the team". It's very normal to handle things in house and not let the truth go out so that an individual can save face.

….Berhalter aired it out…He undermined his own directions…he has not created a **** storm for one of his players and for the team. Can we not be mad at him for that? If you aren't then I don't know what to tell you

It's Berhalter's cat. People are upset with him because he wouldn't say what was in the box, and now they're upset with him because they didn't like what they saw when he opened it.

Were Berhalter's comments a net minus on the whole situation? Did he make things worse? Probably, maybe.

But if you were mad that he wouldn't say before, at least own the tinge of hypocrisy before being mad that he said it now.


I was mad before because it didn't make sense. Now we know the truth and I'm supportive of him benching him. I actually think they should've sent him home.

I'm mad now because he threw a player under the bus and he didn't have to. He's blown up a news story and hurt the reputation of a pool player and this never had to happen.

Berhalter should have said something DURING the tournament if he was going to talk about it. Instead he waits till afterwards and drops a bomb, all the while telling everyone else to keep in in-house for unity purposes. He handled the situation wrong. You don't see a problem with that?
Dre_00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Who was mad that Berhalter wasn't telling us why Reyna wasn't playing? People were mad that Reyna wasn't playing. People were calling Berthalter an idiot for not playing Reyna. But I don't remember anyone demanding Berhalter to tell us all the gory details.

And even if some fans were, this is literally coaching 101. You can answer the question without going into all the details especially if you have the remedial intelligence to realize that going into the details is going to cause more problems than it solves.

"It's a tactical choice we're making."
"Weah is in great form and we like what he can bring to the game."
"Team is playing well and we don't want to disrupt that."

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...but all valid answers that doesn't throw a player under the bus. You're acting like he had no choice but to address the issue in the manner that he did where there literally a dozen less harmful resolutions he could have chosen.
TRM
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
PatAg said:

Its all complicated, because I would argue its idiotic to devise a system where Gio is going to see limited play.
We found out what happens when your system makes you play the same 3 central mids as much as possible.
Aaronson is a premier league quality midfielder, and he couldnt figure out how to get him on the field.
Gio is a mainstay on a top tier German club, same problem.
You dont plug square pegs into a round hole, but you also dont just insert loq quality round pegs.
Switch the board out.
I know others will disagree with me, but I hate the MMA midfield. Great defensively but it lacks offensive creativity to unlock WC-caliber defenses.
Aston94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TRM said:

PatAg said:

Its all complicated, because I would argue its idiotic to devise a system where Gio is going to see limited play.
We found out what happens when your system makes you play the same 3 central mids as much as possible.
Aaronson is a premier league quality midfielder, and he couldnt figure out how to get him on the field.
Gio is a mainstay on a top tier German club, same problem.
You dont plug square pegs into a round hole, but you also dont just insert loq quality round pegs.
Switch the board out.
I know others will disagree with me, but I hate the MMA midfield. Great defensively but it lacks offensive creativity to unlock WC-caliber defenses.
You are right, we will disagree with you. And so will the coaches of England, Iran and the Netherlands.
JJxvi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Berhalters "diplomatic response" to the Reyna question at the world cup was to play it off that Reyna was affected by injury but then when Reyna was asked he just said that Berhalter doesnt have to justify why he's not playing him and that he is ready to play. IMO player already didnt want to be on the same page as the coach regarding measaging.
tysker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TRM said:

PatAg said:

Its all complicated, because I would argue its idiotic to devise a system where Gio is going to see limited play.
We found out what happens when your system makes you play the same 3 central mids as much as possible.
Aaronson is a premier league quality midfielder, and he couldnt figure out how to get him on the field.
Gio is a mainstay on a top tier German club, same problem.
You dont plug square pegs into a round hole, but you also dont just insert loq quality round pegs.
Switch the board out.
I know others will disagree with me, but I hate the MMA midfield. Great defensively but it lacks offensive creativity to unlock WC-caliber defenses.
You're not alone. I would have replaced Weston with Gio from the start. But then again when Gio had his chance, he wasn't impactful
TRM
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yup, the Dutch were so scared of our attack they let us have meaningless possession and forced us to break down an organized defense which we weren't good at.

Weah scored on a breakaway versus Wales. Pulisic's goal against Iran was what I'd call a delayed transition goal like a secondary fast break. Haji had a fluke goal.
deadbq03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JJxvi said:

Berhalters "diplomatic response" to the Reyna question at the world cup was to play it off that Reyna was affected by injury but then when Reyna was asked he just said that Berhalter doesnt have to justify why he's not playing him and that he is ready to play. IMO player already didnt want to be on the same page as the coach regarding measaging.
I didn't watch other pressers, but before Iran he stated he wasn't injured. And I recall quotes throughout where he kept saying that Reyna would have an important role in the WC.
Rudyjax
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
KCup17 said:

mrmill3218 said:

How in the world do you tell one of your best players that he won't feature much before the tournament even starts? Very strange.


Then try to double down and say the reason he didn't play was because his attitude… but the reason he had so little effort and poor attitude was due to Berhalter telling him we wasn't going to play much. Someone explain that logic to me.
I think it was, you're not going to start and Gio meant that, you're not going to play much. And then go the attitude. But that's piecing together the story from multiple sides.
deadbq03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm no ggg fan, and I hope we go with someone else… but one thing I think he's done extremely well is recognize when high-profile guys aren't living up to their hype. Or maybe he's just gotten lucky.

Regardless he was criticized for years for excluding/marginalizing John Brooks… then it turns out Brooks isn't really Bundesliga quality anymore and is struggling to get playing time at Benfica.

Reyna's lack of inclusion stretches way back as well. It was frequently due to injury but there have been stretches where he could've gotten a start and didn't. Seems now like ggg may have good reasons there too.

I've been critical of his lack of selection of Scally, but it came out recently that Scally and Gio are good friends and hang out all the time… maybe there's some legit locker room stuff there too.

There's a lot I don't like about ggg, but I'm willing to give a bit of a pass on these kinds of things.

That said, he definitely should have kept his mouth shut, and - like I said earlier, I'd prefer a different coach… but I don't think this is a massive problem. Folks are making a mountain out of this because they don't like him. I'm tempted to hop on that train, but I'm actually kinda glad to see some player accountability too. Gio is going to outlast ggg in USMNT. He needs to get on the right track.

I hope this is a win-win. Gio cleans up his act, and ggg falls on his sword.
fig96
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
PatAg said:

Its all complicated, because I would argue its idiotic to devise a system where Gio is going to see limited play.
We found out what happens when your system makes you play the same 3 central mids as much as possible.
Aaronson is a premier league quality midfielder, and he couldnt figure out how to get him on the field.
Gio is a mainstay on a top tier German club, same problem.
You dont plug square pegs into a round hole, but you also dont just insert loq quality round pegs.
Switch the board out.
This is what I was alluding to the other day with his system. You've gotta at least make some effort to adapt to get your most talented guys on the field.
Aston94
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TRM said:

Yup, the Dutch were so scared of our attack they let us have meaningless possession and forced us to break down an organized defense which we weren't good at.

Weah scored on a breakaway versus Wales. Pulisic's goal against Iran was what I'd call a delayed transition goal like a secondary fast break. Haji had a fluke goal.
These aren't midfield issues, these are 4-3-3 issues without a consistent center forward.

Don't confuse lack of scoring and quality midfield.
wangus12
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
deadbq03 said:

JJxvi said:

Berhalters "diplomatic response" to the Reyna question at the world cup was to play it off that Reyna was affected by injury but then when Reyna was asked he just said that Berhalter doesnt have to justify why he's not playing him and that he is ready to play. IMO player already didnt want to be on the same page as the coach regarding measaging.
I didn't watch other pressers, but before Iran he stated he wasn't injured. And I recall quotes throughout where he kept saying that Reyna would have an important role in the WC.


He definitely said multiple times that Gio was gonna have an important role to play which seems to be the opposite of what he told Gio
jeffk
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TXAggie2011
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This discussion is boiling further and further into how you felt about Gio Reyna and Gregg Berhalter before the story came out
TXAggie2011
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
wangus12 said:

deadbq03 said:

JJxvi said:

Berhalters "diplomatic response" to the Reyna question at the world cup was to play it off that Reyna was affected by injury but then when Reyna was asked he just said that Berhalter doesnt have to justify why he's not playing him and that he is ready to play. IMO player already didnt want to be on the same page as the coach regarding measaging.
I didn't watch other pressers, but before Iran he stated he wasn't injured. And I recall quotes throughout where he kept saying that Reyna would have an important role in the WC.


He definitely said multiple times that Gio was gonna have an important role to play which seems to be the opposite of what he told Gio


"Important role" and "limited playing time" or whatever Gio says was said aren't necessarily opposite, especially when said in a coach speak kinda way
Rudyjax
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TXAggie2011 said:

This discussion is boiling further and further into how you felt about Gio Reyna and Gregg Berhalter before the story came out
Meh...they're both at fault here.
LeonardSkinner
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If there's one positive takeaway from this, it might be: hey, we're relevant enough to have people talking about the behind the scenes drama
OhLongJohnson
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You hit the nail on the head. MMA all lack that offensive capability that can put your striker in a position to constantly score. Although all three did a great job at the tournament and played exceptionally well, we never had that "it" factor to be dangerous on the offensive side. It was nice being in control of the game but I think with experience, all three can bring in a little bit more of offensive creativity. As far as Gio Reyna, he is a great player but he's only 20, US soccer acts like he's our savior and the next best thing. He has 2 world cups where he will be in his prime. We were just fine with his limited minutes.
OhLongJohnson
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's possible that Reyna could be exaggerating here. GGG probably told him he wasn't starting and Gio Reyna didn't know how to handle it. I Am a fan of Gio Reyna but we need to stop pretending he is a world class player. Our midfield did a good enough job to keep the same lineup.
Pahdz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Chuck Cunningham said:

jeffk said:

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/soccer/in-the-gio-reyna-controversy-there-are-no-winners
Holy Jesus Ferrerra....

The level of disfunction of US Soccer is ridiculous.

Gio is told he's not going to start. He pouts.
He gets called out on it.
Papa Reyna and Mama Reyna get pissed at their lifetime friend.
Papa Reyna cries to Stewart and McBride.

Add in Yedlin's quote, and it's amazing we got past iran.


The only dysfunction I see is with one player. Everyone else on board was on the same page. It could be said because of the union of the others that's WHY we advanced out of the group.
Rudyjax
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You're missing the point. Daddy talking to the coach's bosses, the coach spilling the tea on internal matters,
The cronyism within Us soccer, etc.
Pahdz
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I mean this crap happens at every freaking level of sport all the way through youth. I coach U13 girls and I know several kids and families that fit this bill. Now...I'm not going to the brewery on the weekends and telling the rest of the age group about these discussions, but all of us here that coach know this player and family.
KCup17
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
That's a stretch considering Gio normally doesn't start for the USMNT and comes off the bench often for Dortmund.
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.