When I ask why you're adversarial, the response here is what I mean. I'm not playing gotcha, I'm not trying to box you in or trap you. I am genuinely trying to understand your point of view, because I genuinely think that there's not very much difference between our understanding.
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You can't bear fruit if you resist God.
Ok, sure, the metaphor for bearing fruit is used sometimes of good fruit vs bad, but also good fruit vs no fruit. I was referring to John 15:2 "no fruit" but that's fine.
Let's rephrase this to: You can't bear good fruit if you resist God, and we're golden. Nice!!
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This seems to be an insufficient statement.
It seems to not remember Romans and the potter/clay along with Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand."
So it's not an issue of bearing fruit.
I do not understand this response. Maybe "fruit" is an analogy that's overburdened. I was thinking, here, of John 15 - "apart from me you can do nothing". The point being here, that apart from God man can do no good thing.
Can we rephase it to: Man can do no good thing apart from God and agree? This is what I was getting at.
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God will not force you to bear fruit against your will.
Nice! Agree!
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No.
You were justified at the cross (past tense)
You are being justified by the cross and the sacraments (present tense)
You will be justified because of the cross (future tense).
Man I think we're
really close here. In some sense everyone was absolutely saved by the Cross - from death. But not all will participate in the justification or righteousness that was made possible through the Cross. I think we agree on that. I'd quibble *a little* that the Cross is what justifies us because St Paul doesn't only talk about the Cross but the Resurrection - they're together (for example, "He was raised to life for our justification" Romans 4:25). Probably best not to overburden the Cross alone.
Can we agree that "If you choose to accept grace, you were justified, you are being justified, and you will be justified"? Because I agree with that very much.
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You mean, you be capable of bearing good fruit.
Which means there's something materially that's changed within the person that makes said person capable of bearing good fruit.
Hm, no, I don't think that is what I meant. I firmly believe that a person who accepts the grace of God
will bear good fruit. "The one abiding in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit." I don't think it is possible for someone to accept the grace of God, and not be drawn inexorably toward the purpose for which they were called. Which, as you pointed out, is good works - and I'd add to that we were also made to be made like Christ, and have communion with God. He has no other will for us, so if we are doing anything else, we are resisting His will, and His work, and therefore His grace.
I think we have to say, that if a person is walking in sin they are actively resisting the grace of God (1 John 1:6, 1 John 3:4-9). And, St Paul teaches that there's no neutral ground. We are either slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness (Romans 6:16-18). So it's binary, in that regard.
But, yes, I do agree that something has changed within the person, which is dying to sin, being raised to Christ, and receipt of the gift of the Holy Spirit and with it the power of God working in us.
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Again, you want everything to be future tense. It's not just future tense. If I am justified in past and present tense, I am also righteous in past and presence tense.
This is important because it makes it clear that at all times, we are in a state of sin while we are in this fallen state. There's no future even that will make us righteous. That event has already occurred and the promise is with us everyday that we exist.
Nah, I don't mind using past and present and future. They're all in the scripture (have been saved, are being saved, will be saved). And here perhaps is our key disagreement. I don't agree that a person who was made righteous through faith at one time has attained the fullness of righteousness. I think this is contrary to scriptural teaching. There's nothing that lacks
from God for us to be righteous, I agree - He has done it, there is no future event coming to make us righteous. But the fact that He has given us everything doesn't mean that His will for us has come to completion. For example, a person who is not a believer, who becomes baptized, receives the Holy Spirit - no "event" happened - the Cross, the Resurrection, all already happened - but that grace was and is and will be manifested in that person. And this continues in our life. The end (culmination) of our enslavement to God is eternal life, through being made holy -- "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life." Romans 6:22
For example.
"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me." Phil 3:12
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18
"Offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your rational of worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Romans 12:1-2
"Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2
"Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession before many witnesses...Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, and to be generous and ready to share, treasuring up for themselves a firm foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life." 1 Tim 6:12,18
"Keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life." Jude 1:21
"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him." Hebrews 9:28
"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!" Romans 5:9-10
"It was He who...equip(s) the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.... we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head." Eph 4:11-14.
Your sentiment here seems to border on the idea of status, which is closely linked to Roman Catholic teaching (state of sin / state of grace), rather than one of ontology or being (which, I suppose, is your tradition of imputed righteousness). But I don't think there is a promise of anything short of
actual righteousness, even the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21). I think the promises are clear, that if we accept the grace of God, we become righteous. And so, the judgment is about what we
are - actually righteous, actually justified, and because of that, we will bear fruit because we will have remained in Him, and we will have labored "striving with all His energy working powerfully within" us. (1 Col 1:29).
If we talk about status, then yeah, I totally see the problem for your vantage point. If status is reckoned to us, if being justified is something different than being made righteous, and if we are never going to actually be righteous, if we're always in a state of sin...then what we do is absolutely not relevant, because we will never be righteous anyway, so it doesn't reflect what we are. I don't think that a person is sometimes in a state of sin and a state of grace in any meaningful way, any more than when I'm in a bad mood or a good mood I'm a different person. Now, if I'm always rude and nasty to people, it's probably because I'm a nasty, rude person. But if I'm normally a very patient person and I die a moment after losing my temper, I don't think there is a momentary judgment of who I am. Obviously this is simplified, but it points to the difference between status and being. Likewise, I don't think the holy ones of God were in a state of sin - because this is foreign to God - but were being renewed. I don't think it is binary. And again, not that we're saying, well you were mostly sinful in your life, or you had mostly sinful days, so you're condemned. That's quantitative again - God is compassionate and merciful, patient and abounding in steadfast love. That kind of metric or judgment or understanding of us is not what the scriptures promise, and I think this makes understanding the many, many scriptural passages about judgment very difficult.