Is it also fair to say that when we are born, we don't inherently understand that Jesus died for our sins, so that all who believe will be saved?

I don't think understanding is required for salvation. It wasn't for circumcision in the old covenant, and it isn't for baptism in the new.

Who really understands the incarnation? Or the resurrection? Or the Trinity?

In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

Ironic poster is ironic.

Wha does understanding the incarnation or Trinity have to do with what I asked? Probably can add the resurrection in depending on which resurrection you are thinking of.

My question was pretty simple.

"Is it also fair to say that when we are born, we don't inherently understand that Jesus died for our sins, so that all who believe will be saved?"

aggiedad20 said:

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In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

I also think that "being saved" is not just a "get out of hell free" card.

It is a rebirth, a complete regeneration. An entire new way of living. And the Kingdom is here. Now.

Not just in eternity.

And my point is we never understand salvation. And, if understanding is a prerequisite for salvation what of people with mental challenges or other types of situations? Tough luck?

Salvation isn't based on our understanding.

I think so too, and I think that's where we have a problem in our ability to understand each other in this conversation. I don't just mean you and me specific, but all throughout this thread between everyone that has commented. And, it's much deeper than just a different understanding of what a human is. There are fundamental disconnects between the frameworks of reality we are operating under to include all 3 of epistemology, metaphysics, and ontology. What does it mean to believe? What does it mean to know? To add, what does it mean to believe in God? What does it mean to know God?

dermdoc said:

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aggiedad20 said:

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In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

---

So are you a Calvinist now? I can't keep up

Those who say we can't understand salvation or Scripture are usually the ones who try their best every day here to justify error...

Beware of false teachers

"O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

Obviously there are things we can understand, but there are things we won't understand until the end.

" For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. "


Anyway, ad hominem isn't a real point. If you have something to discuss, feel free. It has been a rather pleasant and edifying conversation, and you're welcome to join.

Quote:

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And my point is we never understand salvation. And, if understanding is a prerequisite for salvation what of people with mental challenges or other types of situations? Tough luck?

---

Using exceptions to create the rule is generally not a good argument.

But you actually raise a more interesting question.

If you want to now argue that we can never understand salvation, then how exactly are we cooperating with something we never understand?

Zobel said:

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"O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

Obviously there are things we can understand, but there are things we won't understand until the end.

" For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. "

---

Wherefore be ye not foolish but understand what the will of the Lord is (Ephesians 5:17)

aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

---

So are you a Calvinist now? I can't keep up

---

No, I am a born again Christian. And have done everything on your "list". But only by the grace of God which you left out.

But that's on us to clarify our terms to try and avoid confusion.

In this case you're using a term "humanness" and have said ramblin_ag wasn't defining it right.

what is your definition?

Zobel said:

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"O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

Obviously there are things we can understand, but there are things we won't understand until the end.

" For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. "


Anyway, ad hominem isn't a real point. If you have something to discuss, feel free. It has been a rather pleasant and edifying conversation, and you're welcome to join.

---

Agree.

As I said, there are things we understand and things we don't - "but we have the mind of Christ."

St Paul is entreating Christians already baptized to understand. So is understanding a prerequisite?

dermdoc said:

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aggiedad20 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

---

So are you a Calvinist now? I can't keep up

---

No, I am a born again Christian. And have done everything on your "list". But only by the grace of God which you left out.

---

But the thief on the cross didn't do half of that stuff on my "list"...

Maybe you work too hard Doc

God loves all men. If your scenario doesn't cover all, then all doesn't mean all. Sometimes completeness is a requirement.

And of course we cooperate with something we don't understand. God is beyond our grasp in His essence, forever. He is incomparable. When we are at enmity we Him we surely lack understanding that comes with grace. So where does salvation enter in? What comes first, grace or understanding?

aggiedad20 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

---

So are you a Calvinist now? I can't keep up

---

Why the ad hom?

aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

In Acts 11, we learn how Peter was to give the WORDS by which entire households will be saved.

Yet here in the TxAgs R&P cathedral, word salad is the only thing on the menu unfortunately.

You must HEAR the Gospel (Rom 10:17)
You must BELIEVE (Heb 11:6)
You must REPENT (Acts 3:19)
You must CONFESS (Rom 10:9)
You must be BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38)
You must be FAITHFUL until death (Rev 2:10)

The Gospel message is so simple. Pompous pseudo intellectual Texag threads like this one are fantastically empty, unlike the simplistic, saving Gospel message the world needs to hear. Tragic to say the least. Thankfully the audience here is limited.

---

Sure seems like a lot of human works. YOU must.... Sounds like you believe we save ourselves.

Where is the free gift of grace? And I do agree the Gospel is simple. And good news.

---

So are you a Calvinist now? I can't keep up

---

No, I am a born again Christian. And have done everything on your "list". But only by the grace of God which you left out.

---

But the thief on the cross didn't do half of that stuff on my "list"...

Maybe you work too hard Doc

---

And it is not "work". The yoke is light.

So Calvinist aren't born again? I'm confused

You're quite* the judge it seems

Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

Zobel said:

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As I said, there are things we understand and things we don't - "but we have the mind of Christ."

St Paul is entreating Christians already baptized to understand. So is understanding a prerequisite?

---

You said "we never understand salvation"

You are in error, and* have been for awhile

We don't, not completely. Because to understand salvation that you have to understand God's will, from beginning to end, including the Incarnation. No human can understand it, not entirely.

aggiedad20 said:

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So Calvinist aren't born again? I'm confused

You're quite* the judge it seems

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Where did I say Calvinists are not Christians? They usually accuse me of not being one. The ad hom was the implication I was not firm in my beliefs.

List all the commands in the New Testament we can ignore and still be saved because of God's grace...

I'll wait

aggiedad20 said:

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Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

---

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Zobel said:

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We don't, not completely. Because to understand salvation that you have to understand God's will, from beginning to end, including the Incarnation. No human can understand it, not entirely.

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This is an argument from pettiness if there ever was one.

No one "fully" understands* anything in existence really.

Asinine and irrelevant in the salvation process imo

dermdoc said:

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aggiedad20 said:

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Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

---

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

---

So we can be saved and not love God?

Are you drinking again? Wow

aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

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Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

---

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

---

So we can be saved and not love God?

Are you drinking again? Wow

---

Please quit putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

And sober as a rock.

God bless and have a great night.

Oh and as Paul wrote to Timothy, a little wine might settle your disposition.

dermdoc said:

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aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

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Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

---

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

---

So we can be saved and not love God?

Are you drinking again? Wow

---

Please quit putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

And sober as a rock.

God bless and have a great night.

Oh and as Paul wrote to Timothy, a little wine might settle your disposition.

---

Doc, God's grace doesn't allow us to ignore His commands.

And don't be a hypocrite about putting words in other's mouths please. You responded to me with something along the lines of I must believe that I can save myself, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

So spare us all your righteousness indignation.

If you simplify it, you don't get any further. The original question to me posed that Jesus died for our sins. Well, you can't just believe in some guy named Jesus, "a different Jesus" who was not proclaimed (2 Cor 11:4). So then who is Jesus? The Word Incarnate, I think you'll agree. Do you reckon you fully understand that?

And He died for our sins. Do you reckon you fathom that? Do you think you know your own sins? Both the ones already committed and the ones to come? Much less the sins of others, of all mankind.

If we're making an argument that a person has to understand something in order to be saved why an arbitrarily simple something? Why not all? Where do you think your understanding suddenly becomes sufficient?

At any rate He died for me before I was born. What understanding did I have then?

aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

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aggiedad20 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

aggiedad20 said:

---

Also, my "list" is only a few of God's commands. Just curious, what other commandments from God/Scripture can we ignore and still be saved?*

Give me your "list", Doc

---

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

---

So we can be saved and not love God?

Are you drinking again? Wow

---

Please quit putting words in my mouth. Thanks.

And sober as a rock.

God bless and have a great night.

Oh and as Paul wrote to Timothy, a little wine might settle your disposition.

---

Doc, God's grace doesn't allow us to ignore His commands.

And don't be a hypocrite about putting words in other's mouths please. You responded to me with something along the lines of I must believe that I can save myself, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

So spare us all your righteousness indignation.

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You first.