How to be saved?

26,245 Views | 576 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by dermdoc
dermdoc
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Pierow said:

Zobel said:

Quote:

An old minute book has been found of the year 1669 and it shows that they called themselves by the name church of Christ, practiced baptism by immersion, celebrated the Lord's Supper each Lord's Day, and had elders and deacons

You surely realize this describes a huge range of churches including Orthodox ones?

But at any rate. Cool, let's take for granted that this church in 1669 was identical in structure, belief, practice to yours.

What about 1500?
1400?
700?
400?


Exactly. I was raised in the church of Christ but they could never show me any proof of the church in that form, calling themselves the churches of Christ ever existed prior to the 1700s. They can't. It didn't exist under that nomenclature. And like I said before, some of the most Christian, sweet people on the planet I have ever known were members of the Church of Christ. But also, some of the most pharisaic people I've ever met who call themselves Christians were also members of that denomination. They even consider the term "denomination" a pejorative.
It all comes down to whether you know the Lord or not. Does not matter what denomination or rules you set up.
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PacifistAg
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Seriously, what's wrong with you? Do you honestly believe that someone can watch how you engage here and say that you're known for your love?
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

The next step aside from time is geography. Where were these people in France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Russia, Africa, etc?
They weren't. The CofC is a denomination started in the 1800's.
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dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Zobel said:

Quote:

An old minute book has been found of the year 1669 and it shows that they called themselves by the name church of Christ, practiced baptism by immersion, celebrated the Lord's Supper each Lord's Day, and had elders and deacons

You surely realize this describes a huge range of churches including Orthodox ones?
And one has to question where was the CofC denomination prior to that date?



The CofC is a denomination started in the 1800's. There are references to "churches of Christ going back to the 1600's, but the modern day CofC denomination started with the Campbell/Stone movement in the 1800's.

There is zero evidence of CofC churches(as they are acknowledged now) present in the Holy Land in the first 1000 years of Christianity.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

dermdoc said:

Zobel said:

Quote:

An old minute book has been found of the year 1669 and it shows that they called themselves by the name church of Christ, practiced baptism by immersion, celebrated the Lord's Supper each Lord's Day, and had elders and deacons

You surely realize this describes a huge range of churches including Orthodox ones?
And one has to question where was the CofC denomination prior to that date?


Maybe you can explain it since just a few minutes before you insisted that no churches of Christ existed before Alexander Campbell...

You're all over the place Doc, and borderline petty
The CofC is a denomination started in the 1800's. There are references to "churches of Christ going back to the 1600's, but the modern day CofC denomination started with the Campbell/Stone movement in the 1800's.

There is zero evidence of CofC churches(as they are acknowledged now) present in the Holy Land in the first 1000 years of Christianity.


I guess all those letters from Paul were to Brazos Fellowship denomination...lol

Come on Doc. Be better
dermdoc
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But wait, he can't be a martyr like Polycarp, etc. They were Church fathers which he said he did not need or have.
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PacifistAg
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Quad Dog said:

Unfortunately reflecting the real world.

Sadly you're right. Everything is about "winning" and pissing of the other side, which results in what we're seeing.
dermdoc
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But I am pulling for the denominational CofC Abilene Christian Wildcats to beat the hell out of the sips.
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aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

But I am pulling for the denominational CofC Abilene Christian Wildcats to beat the hell out of the sips.


Now that's something we can agree on!!! lol

ACU and many other CoCs are definitely more like the baptist and other denoms these days, sadly

Change agents have been effective, tragically
dermdoc
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May I ask how many generations CofC you are? I would guess at least three.
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Zobel
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It's not a deflection to object to your personal insults to other posters.

A deflection is when you avoided answering a question by saying the CoC wasn't "your" church. Can you provide any evidence for the CoC - the church you say belong to - existing in history?
aggiedad20
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Zobel said:

It's not a deflection to object to your personal insults to other posters.

A deflection is when you avoided answering a question by saying the CoC wasn't "your" church. Can you provide any evidence for the CoC - the church you say belong to - existing in history?


Why does it matter? If*?any church will suffice for salvation, what difference does it make?

I'm curious though, do you believe Derm Doc is saved? I've never seen you interact with him directly.

Who is saved, specifically, in your opinion Zoe?
aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

May I ask how many generations CofC you are? I would guess at least three.


May I ask if you descended from the Cowboy church? I'd guess no, but stranger things have happened
Zobel
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I've met Derm, went to a game together. He's a good guy. We talk quite a bit on here too.

I don't opine on other people's salvation. It's not my business to judge other people. We pray for the salvation of all men. Including ourselves, because I am a sinner in need of mercy.

I've answered the question about salvation extensively in this thread. You can start on page one, it's been detailed and thorough.

It matters because you've made some big claims about your denomination. But when you are asked to back them up, you evade and avoid. Why?
dermdoc
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I have no idea how I could "descend" from the Cowboy church, or any church for that matter, but carry on as this is entertaining. And very revealing.
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aggiedad20
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Do consider him your brother in/of Christ?
aggiedad20
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I think you missed the pun. Sorry
dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

I think you missed the pun. Sorry

No I did not.

How many generations CofC are you?
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Zobel
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He and I aren't in communion with each other. That is a real separation that I wish wasn't there. But, he is a disciple of Christ and the Lord will judge him, not me.

You are putting on a clinic of evasion here.
aggiedad20
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It's irrelevant, my denominational friend. If I tell you that neither of my parents are Christians, then in your narrow mind I'm immature and unwise. If I told you my middle name is Campbell, then of course I'm bred to be a CoC culter... If I tell you I'm just a Christian, you whine piss and moan about how no one can be just a Christian because the whole of Christianity is a denomination.

Christianity is a taught religion, not some touch feely approach towards God. If anyone with an ounce of common sense just follows the Bible, they can onlybbe a Christian, void of any denominational labels you and others mandate on others. Division is of man, unity in the Lord's church is of God. Big difference.

dermdoc
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Boy you project a lot.
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aggiedad20
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Zobel said:

He and I aren't in communion with each other. That is a real separation that I wish wasn't there. But, he is a disciple of Christ and the Lord will judge him, not me.

You are putting on a clinic of evasion here.


So just to be clear, you and Doc are not brothers in Christ?

Speaking of evasive...
aggiedad20
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[Over the line and if you make that comment again you will get banned for a 30 days minimum. -Staff]

[This is a warning to all posters on this thread that insulting or demeaning posts will not be tolerated and starting with this post a ban will be given to anyone that is not respectful to other posters. -Staff]
dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

Zobel said:

He and I aren't in communion with each other. That is a real separation that I wish wasn't there. But, he is a disciple of Christ and the Lord will judge him, not me.

You are putting on a clinic of evasion here.


So just to be clear, you and Doc are not brothers in Christ?

Speaking of evasive...
I consider Zobel my brother in Christ. And a friend. I am not a member of the Orthodox Church so in his eyes, we are not in communion, That is on me not him.
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Zobel
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He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?
Pierow
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dermdoc said:

But I am pulling for the denominational CofC Abilene Christian Wildcats to beat the hell out of the sips.


They just did, and it was great.
Acts 2:38
aggiedad20
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Zobel said:

He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?


Light has no communion with darkness I guess. Interesting

Imo...The most exhaustive resource of the continuous NT church is a book by Keith Sissman- Traces of the Kingdom...it's available on Amazon

Here's another source that's a good read.

https://casagrandechurchofchrist.com/history-of-the-church-of-christ/

The NT church was promised, founded and preserved by Christ. There's no reason to think the churches of Christ that were growing in the first century wouldn't have continued throughout the ages. Many of the groups you mentioned may have been similar to the Lord's church but obviously the human influences helped the evolution into the countless denoms of modern day....
dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

Zobel said:

He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?


Light has no communion with darkness I guess. Interesting

Imo...The most exhaustive resource of the continuous NT church is a book by Keith Sissman- Traces of the Kingdom...it's available on Amazon

Here's another source that's a good read.

https://casagrandechurchofchrist.com/history-of-the-church-of-christ/

The NT church was promised, founded and preserved by Christ. There's no reason to think the churches of Christ that were growing in the first century wouldn't have continued throughout the ages. Many of the groups you mentioned may have been similar to the Lord's church but obviously the human influences helped the evolution into the countless denoms of modern day....
It is Sisman. And he covers the CofC in England. Still leaves a lot of years with no historical data of a denomination called the Church of Christ. And few if any denominational Church of Christ churches in the Holy Land.

And if the Cof C has Apostolic succession, why did Campbell and Stone have to establish the tenets of the denomination CofC?
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dermdoc
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ
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dermdoc
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aggiedad20 said:

Zobel said:

He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?


Light has no communion with darkness I guess.
What is wrong with you?

And mods, why do we have to allow the personal attacks?
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Zobel
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I'm sorry but this article reads like a fifth grade book report. Rather than provide any affirmative evidence of CoC beliefs, it claims any persecution as evidence and ignores evidence that refutes CoC teachings. It's basically a tautology - the logic goes like this: the CoC is the NT church, so any NT church is the CoC. This concept completely ignores any kind of evidence that would actually demonstrate a continuity of teaching, belief, practice.


For example - it says "Since the Roman Empire version of overly-organized and overly-formalized Christianity was not popularized until the mid-300s, every congregation in remote areas was on its own based on the Scriptures that would have been taken to them by the missionaries." The only reasonable response to something like this is - citation needed. And of course when we look in history we find the exact opposite - the episcopal structure of the church is there from the beginning.


Second example - the article assumes St Irenaeus is a witness to the CoC. But...St Irenaeus wasn't only a bishop, he taught the episcopacy in several places in his writings. So no autonomous congregations. He taught apostolic tradition and teaching being the vehicle by which the NT scripture and teaching were both delivered and protected. He actually says that the Church learned the gospel verbally, and only later received the texts. So no sola scriptura, no "we only preach the bible." He doesn't teach or quote from Philemon, James, 2 Peter, or 3 John, so his "bible" isn't even the same as yours. The CoC doesn't use creeds, correct? But St Irenaeus delivers several creedal statements in his writings. He also taught infant baptism. So, we can safely cross him from the list, I think. Definitely not a person who believed what the modern CoC believes.

Then they move on to St John Cassian. They make the laughable claim that St John Cassian "was condemned by Catholic church leaders around 428 because he opposed the teachings of Augustine about Rome being the city of God." I mean, this is almost not worth reading. St John Cassian was a monk from the East who went to Egypt, was ordained a deacon by St John Chrysostom in Constantinople, and later traveled to Rome at St John's request to appeal to Pope Innocent I over St John being exiled. He wrote at the request of Pope St Leo the Great. He was and is HUGELY influential, the author of the work that would become Pope Gregory's teaching on the Seven Deadly Sins. His writings were the basis for St Benedict's Rule, and he was never, never, never condemned. He is STILL recognized as a saint by both Rome and the East.

The article continues "John has been called a monk by many historians, a term loosely applied to many who were merely ministers of the gospel." I mean, come on man. This is silly. St John founded the Abbey of St Victor in Marseille. He wasn't "called" a monk, he was a monk, and basically brought the eastern monastic practices to the west. This kind of article is prattle for people who are essentially ignorant of history.

Your last paragraph is nothing more than an assumption or further argument from silence. But look, it's fine - the evidence doesn't exist because it didn't happen. It's not true. The CoC is 100% a product of the American Restoration movement. You know it, I know it.
dermdoc
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Zobel said:

I'm sorry but this article reads like a fifth grade book report. Rather than provide any affirmative evidence of CoC beliefs, it claims any persecution as evidence and ignores evidence that refutes CoC teachings. It's basically a tautology - the logic goes like this: the CoC is the NT church, so any NT church is the CoC. This concept completely ignores any kind of evidence that would actually demonstrate a continuity of teaching, belief, practice.


For example - it says "Since the Roman Empire version of overly-organized and overly-formalized Christianity was not popularized until the mid-300s, every congregation in remote areas was on its own based on the Scriptures that would have been taken to them by the missionaries." The only reasonable response to something like this is - citation needed. And of course when we look in history we find the exact opposite - the episcopal structure of the church is there from the beginning.


Second example - the article assumes St Irenaeus is a witness to the CoC. But...St Irenaeus wasn't only a bishop, he taught the episcopacy in several places in his writings. So no autonomous congregations. He taught apostolic tradition and teaching being the vehicle by which the NT scripture and teaching were both delivered and protected. He actually says that the Church learned the gospel verbally, and only later received the texts. So no sola scriptura, no "we only preach the bible." He doesn't teach or quote from Philemon, James, 2 Peter, or 3 John, so his "bible" isn't even the same as yours. The CoC doesn't use creeds, correct? But St Irenaeus delivers several creedal statements in his writings. So, we can safely cross him from the list, I think. Definitely not a person who believed what the modern CoC believes.

Then they move on to St John Cassian. They make the laughable claim that St John Cassian "was condemned by Catholic church leaders around 428 because he opposed the teachings of Augustine about Rome being the city of God." I mean, this is almost not worth reading. St John Cassian was a monk from the East who went to Egypt, was ordained a deacon by St John Chrysostom in Constantinople, and later traveled to Rome at St John's request to appeal to Pope Innocent I over St John being exiled. He wrote at the request of Pope St Leo the Great. He was and is HUGELY influential, the author of the work that would become Pope Gregory's teaching on the Seven Deadly Sins. His writings were the basis for St Benedict's Rule, and he was never, never, never condemned. He is STILL recognized as a saint by both Rome and the East.

The article continues "John has been called a monk by many historians, a term loosely applied to many who were merely ministers of the gospel." I mean, come on man. This is silly. St John founded the Abbey of St Victor in Marseille. He wasn't "called" a monk, he was a monk, and basically brought the eastern monastic practices to the west. This kind of article is prattle for people who are essentially ignorant of history.

Your last paragraph is nothing more than an assumption or further argument from silence. But look, it's fine - the evidence doesn't exist because it didn't happen. It's not true. The CoC is 100% a product of the American Restoration movement. You know it, I know it.
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05AG
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Zobel- I come from a long line of church of Christ and converted 3 years ago to the Catholic Church. I love history but had to ignore history to reconcile so many things. Like I said earlier, you have to be ahistorical and, quite honestly, close minded to facts that go against the narrative.

They will only quote the apostolic fathers when it is narrowly defined to fit their narrative. Anything else is just man made. They claim to be Bible only but don't follow everything in the Bible like even when it's command, example, or necessary inference (that's how they claim what is necessary).
aggiedad20
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dermdoc said:

aggiedad20 said:

Zobel said:

He's my brother in Christ. We are not in communion.

Now, how about that historical evidence for your denomination in any place other than English speaking lands, any time before 1669?


Light has no communion with darkness I guess.
What is wrong with you?

And mods, why do we have to allow the personal attacks?


So we can't quote scripture here now?

2 Cor 6:14 sir
PacifistAg
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You're twisting Scripture to attack believers. Stop.
 
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