How to be saved?

26,259 Views | 576 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by dermdoc
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:03p, 3/1/21
Zobel said:
If you simplify it, you don't get any further. The original question to me posed that Jesus died for our sins. Well, you can't just believe in some guy named Jesus, "a different Jesus" who was not proclaimed (2 Cor 11:4). So then who is Jesus? The Word Incarnate, I think you'll agree. Do you reckon you fully understand that?

And He died for our sins. Do you reckon you fathom that? Do you think you know your own sins? Both the ones already committed and the ones to come? Much less the sins of others, of all mankind.

If we're making an argument that a person has to understand something in order to be saved why an arbitrarily simple something? Why not all? Where do you think your understanding suddenly becomes sufficient?


This is so trivial and nonsensical....

A person only needs to understand enough to respond to the Gospel message and obey the Gospel.

Splitting curly hairs isn't going to help save anyone
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:06p, 3/1/21
AG
How much is enough to understand the gospel message, and who decides whether someone's understanding is sufficient?

Does an eight year old understand enough? How about a three year old?

How many people are you arbitrarily willing to exclude from the grace of God because they don't understand "enough"?
Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:13p, 3/1/21
Zobel said:
How much is enough to understand the gospel message, and who decides whether someone's understanding is sufficient?

Does an eight year old understand enough? How about a three year old?

How many people are you arbitrarily willing to exclude from the grace of God because they don't understand "enough"?


Was your understanding lacking that caused you to leave the baptist church and become a lutheran? Were you 8 or 3 years old? And when you left Luther's faith for the ortho church, was that due to increased understanding or ?


Reply Quote
Edited by Staff
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:22p, 3/1/21
AG
My life isn't really germane to the point. I'm not arguing that I have any kind of understanding, or that my experience gives me any kind of special insight.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Your assertion is that a person has to understand enough to respond and obey. This is your requirement, you should be able to define it. You said before it is so simple - you should be able to answer simple questions about it, right?

Does a three year old understand enough? How about a two year old?
Reply Quote
2
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:30p, 3/1/21
Zobel said:
My life isn't really germane to the point. I'm not arguing that I have any kind of understanding, or that my experience gives me any kind of special insight.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Your assertion is that a person has to understand enough to respond and obey. This is your requirement, you should be able to define it. You said before it is so simple - you should be able to answer simple questions about it, right?

Does a three year old understand enough? How about a two year old?


My argument is we don't have to "fully" understand the mysteries of God's creation in order to hear the gospel, believe it, confess Christ risen, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins and the remain faithful.

Full understanding of God's methodology is INFINITELY IRRELEVANT to our salvation and our response/obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In simpler terms, 99% of everything you've ever written on this forum is meaningless to my or anyone's salvation. In fact, truth be known, there's no other poster here that has more empty, fruitless debates than yourself.

Not even close
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:00p, 3/1/21
AG
Look friend, you came into a discussion between other people guns blazing, insulting people. I don't understand why. If you think it is such a waste of time and meaningless, what are you doing here? Why bother?

Fortunately I don't fancy that I'm saving people, so your comment that I'm not doesn't really bother me. There is benefit in collegial discussion about our faith - iron sharpens iron.

If you don't mind my asking, do you think you're benefiting me? Or helping others? Do you believe what you're writing is meaningful to my or others salvation? I'm curious about your motives here. How do you envision this discussion going?

/////

The person I was having a rather nice and productive conversation with asked if we inherently understood that Jesus died for our sins when we were born. My objection is that understanding - especially a kind of intellectual assent - isn't a prerequisite for salvation. Faith is. As you know, there's no difference in the scripture between belief and faith, they're the same word. But faith is also a grace, a gift from God.

By way of expanding on what I mean - actually to show the dangerous idea behind putting some kind of understanding before grace - I pointed out that we actually understand very little when we become Christians. And God's saving work extends before our consciousness existed. So salvation is something that happens - or at least begins - before our understanding. Of course this is in the context of what we have to do to be saved. If you read along, you'd probably find that I've been pretty strongly defending the point that we are absolutely obligated to work - to co-operate - with God's grace in order that we may have confidence before the Judgment seat. I don't think we disagree here.

Grace precedes in all things. If we are given a measure of understanding, this is a grace from God. If we aren't, it doesn't excuse our obedience. Children understand very little, yet their faith is something to emulate.

The important thing is that if full understanding isn't needed - and I obviously agree, seeing as that was my point - but some understanding is, it is suddenly pretty darn important to know how much we need to understand. You've carefully avoided making any statement here, instead choosing to insult me.

As for your argument, I agree with you. We don't need to understand fully. In fact I'd say we don't have to understand anything at all to be given the grace of faith - and, of course, all Christians must repent, be baptized, and remain faithful.
Reply Quote
3
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:13p, 3/1/21
AG
Also, for what it's worth I've met some of the people in this thread. I like them. I consider them my friends. AgLivin06 has met my family at church, he's a good guy. Part of the reason I talk to him, and others, is because not being in communion with them makes me sad. The breach in our faith is something I wish we could heal. Real ecumenical dialogue is in hashing out differences, or coming to understandings about them - or maybe agreement.

No reason we can't have the same kind of friendly, mutually beneficial discussions.
Reply Quote
2
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 6:31a, 3/2/21
What you deem as insults aren't personal, it's directed at the false, warped theology you and others spew relentlessly here in this forum. I'm sure everyone here are nice people but when 99% of the content you espouse is mind numbing-holier than thou-gibberish, I and others take offense, although most never comment.

Every once in a while I try to interject the truth.... you obviously take offense to that and type out 12 paragraphs to tell me how offended you are. You talk over everyone's head and talk down to the commoners here as if you have some grandiose knowledge of God's plan, and you don't. You even admit from time to time how "we can never understand salvation"...of all places in SALVATION thread.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth and scattering absurdities about the process of becoming a Christian isn't some noble quality, it's the very root of division. It's this type of false rhetoric and division that causes me to detest with my every fiber, denominations. Every one should be exposed and uprooted imo

Reply Quote
2
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Create Account • 6:59a, 3/2/21
Create Account said:
Salvation is a common theme in the Bible. I want to be saved. It has something to do with believing in Jesus, but I don't know what that means. Others say be baptized which seems superstitious.


OP- Salvation is achievable and is very understandable, contrary to what has been mentioned in your thread. Also, baptism is not a superstition. It's commanded by God and is the point where your sins are washed away as you are raised to new life. Good look in your search and the links below can and will help guide you through the denominational falsities and into truth.

http://www.thywordistruth.com/plan-of-salvation.html

http://www.thywordistruth.com/baptism.html
Reply Quote
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 7:53a, 3/2/21
Zobel said:
God loves all men. If your scenario doesn't cover all, then all doesn't mean all. Sometimes completeness is a requirement.

And of course we cooperate with something we don't understand. God is beyond our grasp in His essence, forever. He is incomparable. When we are at enmity we Him we surely lack understanding that comes with grace. So where does salvation enter in? What comes first, grace or understanding?

No...because generally no scenario will cover extreme outliers.

Even your scenario doesn't cover it in the sense that someone with mental challenges may not be able to cooperate with God.

So whatever works as justification for you will also work for me. Probably something to the effect that God grace will work with all no matter what their situation in life is.

--------------------------------------------

Your second paragraph is seemingly intentionally vague. Of course nobody will able to fully understand God. That's not what I asked and you know that. I can guarantee that we essentially agree on the knowable and unknowable God, at least enough to not need that discussion.

However, all you've done is avoided the question, so lets try again.

My question was: "Is it also fair to say that when we are born, we don't inherently understand that Jesus died for our sins, so that all who believe will be saved?"

Lets use an example: If I handed my keys to my 2 year old and asked him to drive my truck down the street, should I expect him to know how to do that?

Likewise, to my question above, we are born in a state where we don't understand God, let alone Jesus. I love my kids with my whole heart, but they don't fear God or truly love God. And that's ok in the sense that they've been baptized into the promise of God and I can see the Holy Spirit working in them. But that doesn't dismiss that they (like you and I) were born into a state where we didn't understand God. And that is what the West believes when it comes to people being born into a state of sin.

It's not complicated like you've tried to make it with varying degrees of understanding or whether we can ever understand.

We are born into a state of sin with a promise of God that He will bring those with faith out of it.
Reply Quote
ramblin_ag02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:58a, 3/2/21
AG
aggiedad20 said:
What you deem as insults aren't personal, it's directed at the false, warped theology you and others spew relentlessly here in this forum. I'm sure everyone here are nice people but when 99% of the content you espouse is mind numbing-holier than thou-gibberish, I and others take offense, although most never comment.

Every once in a while I try to interject the truth.... you obviously take offense to that and type out 12 paragraphs to tell me how offended you are. You talk over everyone's head and talk down to the commoners here as if you have some grandiose knowledge of God's plan, and you don't. You even admit from time to time how "we can never understand salvation"...of all places in SALVATION thread.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth and scattering absurdities about the process of becoming a Christian isn't some noble quality, it's the very root of division. It's this type of false rhetoric and division that causes me to detest with my every fiber, denominations. Every one should be exposed and uprooted imo


This is an open forum. Many of us really appreciate the intelligent, reasoned, and researched responses that Zobel and many others bring to the table. As far as I can tell he's an excellent advocate for his faith tradition, and I feel lucky to be able to read his and many others on this site.

If you don't like it there are two options that don't include attacking people's very reasonable posting styles. First, you could just not post here. It's entirely voluntary. We all get fed up with this place and the constant disagreement from time to time and take breaks. Most of us have been around this place 10 years or more and float in and out depending on our mood. Second, you can pay a few dollars a month and buy a star. It supports this awesome website and give you the option to "ignore" posters. That way you don't have to read things you don't want to read.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
4
ramblin_ag02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:03a, 3/2/21
AG
Quote:
OP- Salvation is achievable and is very understandable, contrary to what has been mentioned in your thread.
I was reading your links from the perspective of a innocent child and have a lot of questions.

This is the statement that tripped me up:
Quote:
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
What does it mean to repent? What is a baptism? Who was Jesus Christ? What is a sin? What is the gift of the Holy Ghost? And why doesn't this passage about "salvation" mention salvation?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:09a, 3/2/21
aggiedad20 said:
Zobel said:
My life isn't really germane to the point. I'm not arguing that I have any kind of understanding, or that my experience gives me any kind of special insight.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Your assertion is that a person has to understand enough to respond and obey. This is your requirement, you should be able to define it. You said before it is so simple - you should be able to answer simple questions about it, right?

Does a three year old understand enough? How about a two year old?


In simpler terms, 99% of everything you've ever written on this forum is meaningless to my or anyone's salvation. In fact, truth be known, there's no other poster here that has more empty, fruitless debates than yourself.

Not even close

I don't agree with this at all.

As this and other threads show, I don't agree with Zobel on many things. However, these discussions have been great for helping me to see weaknesses in my own arguments that I needed to tighten up. It's also caused me to explore further and that has only strengthened my faith in God and my belief that Lutheranism is the best representation of what God and Jesus desired for His Church to be.

Without those challenges to our faith, I suspect we'd get lax and that's not what we are called to do.
Reply Quote
4
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:20a, 3/2/21
AG
I haven't been offended by anything. I didn't type out 12 paragraphs to tell you how offended I was. I typed out a response to try to explain to you my position, seeing as you walked in on page 12 of a discussion and derailed the thread. That's actually a sign of respect, not dismissal.

If you want to have a productive discussion, do it. But don't insult me personally, say it isn't personal, and then act as if you're a victim of my words.

If you want to have a discussion, let's talk. Feel free to post your understanding of the truth. I'll gladly answer any questions you have, and maybe you can start by answering some of mine.
Reply Quote
3
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 8:34a, 3/2/21
AG

Yeah I think we agree here - God gives sufficient grace to all, and I believe He always moves first to act in love for His creation. If there's a scenario that exists for a person, God has loved them over and beyond anything we can comprehend. If that means everyone understands "enough", that's fine - but that also presupposes that "enough" is a moving target. God is merciful, and it isn't our own strength or understanding which saves us.

Before the derail (and apologies - it was my fault it got derailed), you were talking about original sin and humans as whether or not we were born condemned to eternal death. It seems as if you were linking being born condemned to eternal death with not understanding that Jesus died for our sins. The problem is, as above, I don't think understanding is a prerequisite to grace. There's no time in anyone's life where grace was insufficient for them.

The truck driving scenario is an analogy, and you can always pick holes in an analogy - but, in this case the expectation is that for your son to be saved, he has to be able to drive the truck. That is to say, your kiddo has to be able to understand ((something)). But we just got through pages of you saying that it isn't what we do that saves us. So how can we turn around and say that it is what we understand that saves?

You say people are born in a way that they don't understand God. I say no one understands God, and you say well that's silly and obvious because no one fully understands God. The point here is that you're making a line. On this side of the line is insufficient understanding of God. On that side of the line is sufficient but still incomplete. Who draws this line?

There's no understanding that is salvific. There is understanding that comes with salvation, and there is ignorance. But understanding doesn't come first - grace does.

Did St John the Forerunner not understand who Christ Jesus was when he leapt in the womb? Who can say what grace and understanding God gives to infants?

One other thought. I think there's an important lesson in the "evasiveness" of the dogmatic statements of the church. Like the formula of Chalcedon - it says what the Incarnation isn't, but doesn't say what it is. Maybe that comes off as "absurdities" but its better to have caution than to say something incorrect.
Reply Quote
1 edit
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:09a, 3/2/21
AG
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 6:51a, 3/3/21
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
OP- Salvation is achievable and is very understandable, contrary to what has been mentioned in your thread.
I was reading your links from the perspective of a innocent child and have a lot of questions.

This is the statement that tripped me up:
Quote:
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
What does it mean to repent? What is a baptism? Who was Jesus Christ? What is a sin? What is the gift of the Holy Ghost? And why doesn't this passage about "salvation" mention salvation?


Acts 2:38 "trips you up"? Really?

Not sure if you're serious but regardless, try reading the entire chapter for context?
Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 6:56a, 3/3/21
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir
Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 7:09a, 3/3/21
I understand you and most contributors here disagree with most of what I post. That's obvious. But it doesn't change the fact that ZoeK2 And yourself and countless others are in error.

Jude 3 says to contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.

Many denominational doctrines are foreign to the New Testament. I wish I had time and energy to expose every single falsehood, but unfortunately that's impossible for me.

Good luck tho
Reply Quote
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:39a, 3/3/21
AG
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 7:50a, 3/3/21
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.


Check it again Doc. Under the "what we believe" tab in the "salvation" description there is ZERO reference to baptism for remission of sins. Zero.

Brazos Fellowship believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, exactly like the baptist. And you very well know it.

Edit to say that BF doesn't explicitly state that baptism is unnecessary but it's obviously inferred. Apologies for the confusion.
Reply Quote
2 edits
ramblin_ag02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:04a, 3/3/21
AG
Quote:
Acts 2:38 "trips you up"? Really?

Not sure if you're serious but regardless, try reading the entire chapter for context?
It definitely tongue-in-cheek, but I was somewhat serious and trying to make a point. As you already said, Acts 2:38 is just one line of a chapter, and Acts 2 is just one chapter of a book. Acts is just one book of the New Testament, and the New Testament is only about 30% of the Bible. So there is an enormous amount of context in just the sacred literature that goes into understanding your one line verse.

Take baptism. We have a whole thread going on the ins and outs of baptism and the differences between Jewish ritual baptism, John's baptism and Christian baptism. Then there is water baptism, spirit baptism and there are even mentions of a baptism by fire in the New Testament. So when Acts 2:38 says to "be baptised", what are we supposed to make of that? Nevermind the illiterate, pagan Irish farmer or the animistic native Hawaiian islander who are hearing the Gospel for the first time. What are they supposed to think when someone quotes Acts 2:38 to them?

Acts 2:38 is only "simple" to you because you have a complete cultural context and grew up in the Christian faith. If you want simple, then I can give you simple. "Stop being a bad person and doing bad things. Do everything you can to do good things and be a good person no matter what it costs you."
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:05a, 3/3/21
AG
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.


Check it again Doc. Under the "what we believe" tab in the "salvation" description there is ZERO reference to baptism for remission of sins. Zero.

Brazos Fellowship believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, exactly like the baptist. And you very well know it.



You are twisting what is written. Everybody who joins Brazos undergoes full immersion baptism.

I think it is best you and I end our discussions.

God bless
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 8:09a, 3/3/21
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.


Check it again Doc. Under the "what we believe" tab in the "salvation" description there is ZERO reference to baptism for remission of sins. Zero.

Brazos Fellowship believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, exactly like the baptist. And you very well know it.



You are twisting what is written. Everybody who joins Brazos undergoes full immersion baptism.

I think it is best you and I end our discussions.

God bless


The argument isn't against "full immersion". BF doesn't believe baptism is necessary for salvation. BF doesn't believe baptism is for remission of sins.

It's not complicated. You stated you were baptized for remission of your sins but BF doesn't believe that. I find it odd. At least baptist admit baptism isn't necessary. I think you're the one twisting the truth my friend

Adios
Reply Quote
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:48a, 3/3/21
AG
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.


Check it again Doc. Under the "what we believe" tab in the "salvation" description there is ZERO reference to baptism for remission of sins. Zero.

Brazos Fellowship believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, exactly like the baptist. And you very well know it.



You are twisting what is written. Everybody who joins Brazos undergoes full immersion baptism.

I think it is best you and I end our discussions.

God bless


The argument isn't against "full immersion". BF doesn't believe baptism is necessary for salvation. BF doesn't believe baptism is for remission of sins.

It's not complicated. You stated you were baptized for remission of your sins but BF doesn't believe that. I find it odd. At least baptist admit baptism isn't necessary. I think you're the one twisting the truth my friend

Adios


Please link where Brazos says baptism is not necessary for salvation. Those are your words so show me.

And I welcome anyone to go to the Brazos Fellowship website and read their beliefs. And show me who is twisting the truth. There is no statement that he is claiming.

Thou shalt not lie.

Goodbye
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
2 edits
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 11:49a, 3/3/21
aggiedad20 said:
I understand you and most contributors here disagree with most of what I post. That's obvious. But it doesn't change the fact that ZoeK2 And yourself and countless others are in error.

Jude 3 says to contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered to the saints.

Many denominational doctrines are foreign to the New Testament. I wish I had time and energy to expose every single falsehood, but unfortunately that's impossible for me.

Good luck tho

I'm not aware of a single falsehood you've exposed?
Reply Quote
AgLiving06
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to dermdoc • 9:28a, 3/4/21
I took at look at what Brazos Fellowship had to show on Baptism.

I don't think it's as bad as aggiedad20 is saying, but I do find some problems with what is written. I do think it makes it clear that Baptism is important.

For clarity, this is what I read:

Quote:
We believe baptism is an act of obedience shared in the context of the church to symbolize the change Jesus Christ has made in the new believer's life. Baptism was modeled by Jesus for all believers to follow as a testimony to the world that He is their Savior and Lord. Baptism is by completely immersing the professing believer underwater.

(Matthew 3:13-17; Romans 6; Colossians 2:12)

Assuming this is the correct church, I presume this means 2 things:

1. Baptism only takes place after someone "believes."

2. This would exclude infant baptism since they aren't "believers" yet.

Assuming I understood that correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I'd argue that there are a couple misunderstandings going on.

1. Nowhere does Scripture exclude infants from baptism. I'd even argue that to exclude infants from baptism would be to exclude a group that was previously included.

2. I've listened to several apologists (from Catholic to Lutheran to Orthodox) and they all have a similar comment that the early church universally agreed with infant baptism. The comment phrase is they haven't found anybody who truly disagreed with it.


So I think there are some problems with it, but it's not near what aggiedad20 is claiming.
Reply Quote
dermdoc
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 10:01a, 3/4/21
AG
That is fair and comes down to whether you believe in infant baptism or not. But that is a totally different thing than what aggiedad20 posted. Because he is a brother in Christ, I am refraining from any more posts on his mis statement. Do not understand why one feels they need to do that, especially on this forum.

Done with him.


No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Reply Quote
1 edit
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:56p, 3/4/21
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
aggiedad20 said:
dermdoc said:
If anything I posted was considered by anyone to be offensive please forgive me.


I forgive you Doc. Although it still perplexes me how you say you were baptized for remission of your sins yet Brazos Fellowship still has on their website that baptism is unnecessary.

Strange that you would be in such direct opposition to their stance on salvation. Or maybe I'm just uneducated.

Good day sir


Brazos Fellowship does not have on their website that baptism is unnecessary. Just went and re read it. Please be truthful.


Check it again Doc. Under the "what we believe" tab in the "salvation" description there is ZERO reference to baptism for remission of sins. Zero.

Brazos Fellowship believes that baptism is an outward sign of an inward change, exactly like the baptist. And you very well know it.

Edit to say that BF doesn't explicitly state that baptism is unnecessary but it's obviously inferred. Apologies for the confusion.


Doc, in your haste to discredit me and label me a liar, you missed my edit to the original reply. Typical denominational cowardice or maybe just an honest oversight....nevertheless, Brazos Fellowship wouldn't dare be caught anywhere saying baptism is for remission of sins. They skirt around the issue just like you do. You're a great Aggie no doubt, but you and BF are in error.

Reply Quote
aggiedad20
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to AgLiving06 • 7:58p, 3/4/21
AgLiving06 said:
I took at look at what Brazos Fellowship had to show on Baptism.

I don't think it's as bad as aggiedad20 is saying, but I do find some problems with what is written. I do think it makes it clear that Baptism is important.

For clarity, this is what I read:

Quote:
We believe baptism is an act of obedience shared in the context of the church to symbolize the change Jesus Christ has made in the new believer's life. Baptism was modeled by Jesus for all believers to follow as a testimony to the world that He is their Savior and Lord. Baptism is by completely immersing the professing believer underwater.

(Matthew 3:13-17; Romans 6; Colossians 2:12)

Assuming this is the correct church, I presume this means 2 things:

1. Baptism only takes place after someone "believes."

2. This would exclude infant baptism since they aren't "believers" yet.

Assuming I understood that correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I'd argue that there are a couple misunderstandings going on.

1. Nowhere does Scripture exclude infants from baptism. I'd even argue that to exclude infants from baptism would be to exclude a group that was previously included.

2. I've listened to several apologists (from Catholic to Lutheran to Orthodox) and they all have a similar comment that the early church universally agreed with infant baptism. The comment phrase is they haven't found anybody who truly disagreed with it.


So I think there are some problems with it, but it's not near what aggiedad20 is claiming.


Since when is silence in Scripture permissive? That's a dangerous slippery slope. The Bible doesn't exclude putting jelly on the communion bread does it? So why not put a little jelly on it to make it taste better?

Ridiculous argument

Edit to say...infants aren't believers, can't repent, haven't heard the Gospel, can't confess Christ raised and most definitely haven't can't be baptized for remission of their sins. They're innocent. The denominational teachings of men on these issues alone are enough to discredit their "faith". It's a shame more people don't simply trust the God's Word.
Reply Quote
1 edit
Tamu_mgm
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TXaggiesTX • 2:40p, 3/5/21
AG
TXaggiesTX said:


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9
James 2:14-26

"
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i
15If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?j
17So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


18Indeed someone may say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?k
22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."l
24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m
26For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
"
Reply Quote
TXaggiesTX
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Tamu_mgm • 4:57p, 3/5/21
AG
I already addressed James 2 earlier in this thread. That is the number 1 chapter that is misinterpreted by people who believe you have to work your way to Heaven. James 2 is talking about justifying yourself before other men.
Reply Quote
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TXaggiesTX • 5:23p, 3/5/21
AG
Except the entire concept of in front of other people is conspicuously absent from the passage. There's no need to say works apart from God save to also confess that faith without synergy with God's grace is no faith at all. If you don't work with God and allow Him to do His good works through you, you are in rebellion to God.

There's no difference between St Paul talking about the faith of Abraham being how we are sons of Abraham, and the Lord saying that if the Pharisees were sons of Abraham they would do what Abraham did.
Reply Quote
1 edit
TXaggiesTX
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Zobel • 1:38a, 3/6/21
AG
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The concept of before men is in verse 18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. - Works are a great way to show other people you are a serious Christian. The word "dead" is building upon the metaphor of "bearing fruit" meaning to get other people saved. If you don't preform works for the Lord, you will have a tough time getting other people to trust you and to allow you to convert them.

If works are required for our salvation, how good is good enough? The same chapter we are discussing states in chapter 10: whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If you have ever sinned in your life you are unworthy of salvation. Only through the belief that Jesus Christ paid the debts for our sins 100% on the cross can we achieve salvation. Nothing you or I could ever do would make us worthy.
Reply Quote
2
Zobel
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TXaggiesTX • 8:09a, 3/6/21
AG
You shouldn't rip a single verse out of context. Romans 4 comes within a discussion about God's plan for salvation for the world - both Israel and all other nations. Just before this St Paul wrote that keeping the Torah doesn't justify men before God, and he says - do we nullify the Torah by saying this? No. Immediately after that he brings up Abraham.

The famous reference to Genesis 15:6 is when God shows Abraham the stars. At this point Abraham had already been faithful to God for years, and Abraham almost challenges God - "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!" Then the Lord tells him that his descendants would be like the stars. And Abraham believed God's promise, and that is why the Lord accounts it to Abraham as righteousness. His continuing faith that the Lord would keep His promises. Is Genesis 15 about faith and works to be saved from death? No, absolutely not. So there is zero ground to assume that St Paul is referencing it like that.

After that, St Paul continues that Abraham received this promise - and believed - before he received circumcision. The entire point of this passage is to show that the Lord moved toward the salvation of the world before circumcision or the giving of the Torah, and so the Lord's plan of salvation includes both Jews and Gentiles.

And St Paul continues that Abraham is the father of us all (Jews and non Jews) not through the flesh but through the father-son relationship of faith. Through faith Abraham is the father of many nations.

Finally the point that turns what you said on its head. St Paul writes that Abraham "did not waver through unbelief at the promise of God, but was strengthened in faith, having given glory to God, and having been fully assured that what He had promised, He is also able to do. Therefore also 'it was credited to him unto righteousness.'"

What is the last sentence referring to? Therefore also or this is why it is was credited to him. Why? Because through faith he is able to do. Faith is not a static mental state. It is a state of trust and love, which is always characterized by action.

This absolutely is not a theological treatise that sets up a concept of salvation which requires nothing more than an assent to a set of facts to "be saved" or "go to heaven". It makes no sense in the context of the letter, which was a letter written to an actual church to address actual people with actual struggles.

Reply Quote
1 edit
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.