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If you are with "mixed company" that makes that uncomfortable don't watch it in "mixed company".

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i have to agree with this. i can understand trying to make a mass-distributed hollywood movie needing to tone down the content for audiences of "mixed company", but this is HBO, and they have a strong track record of holding nothing back. while i can relate to not wanting to watch the show with younger adults, my parents, highly religious people, etc., i also don't think HBO has any obligation to restrict what they show. it's a premium channel, and they're going for realism - nothing that we've seen in all 12 episodes is any more graphic than the books. you can argue that a book is a "private experience", and that's true, but a TV show is not. you know what the content will be, it's not HBO's fault if the people you watch it with aren't fans.

i'm really not trying to attack you G Martin, i'm more just trying to defend HBO on this. i think by being realistic to the visual imagery of the novels, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, and what Hollywood wouldn't have the guts or the luxury to do.

Its kinda hard for me to tell people "you need to watch this show" then display 15 secs of reverse cowgirl and moaning.

Our "watching party" consists of another couple who are both big fans of the books and another couple who have not read the books. All of us are experienced HBO watchers. All of us are parents. All of us had similar negative reactions to last night's episode. We would rather watch the shows together because we enjoy discussing the show and having dinner and drinks beforehand. But we can just as easily find something else to watch instead. The bottom line is that i am disappointed in HBO's decision to add so much soft porn to GRRM's fantasy book series when they are already leaving so many non-porn parts of the books completely out. The priority in bringing the books to the TV screen is clearly sex, not making a good adaptation of the story. If I were the author, I would be disappointed too.

[This message has been edited by G Martin 87 (edited 4/9/2012 2:38p).]

Bill,

I don't know, I've told a lot of people about the show and made it clear that it's an adult show with some pretty harsh scenes. Personally I think the violence is harsher than the sex, such as Drogo slitting the guy's throat and pulling his tongue out through his neck.

It does remind me of a funny story though. My wife was scheduled to go in for a C Section for our first child and the night before happened to be the season finale of "Sex and the City". It was probably about as gratuitous as that show ever was in that episode and my Mom, my wife's Mom and Grandmother just happened to be there because of the impending birth. Wow was that awkward to hang out with 80+ year old Granny that doesn't curse, drink, or do much but go to church and be Granny and to have Samantha gettin' busy at her best. My wife didn't want to miss the show though!

Martin,

The sex happens in the books though, that is where you are losing me. Is every scene exactly as it is in the books? No, but there are scenes left out as well. I mean in the first episode of Season 1 you had Viserys fondling his sister, Tyrion getting oral followed by multiple partners, and ending with "Dany's wedding night" which was actually less graphic than the books though she was more willing.

I get that it was uncomfortable, I just don't get how you are surprised and disappointed.

I'm with G Martin on this one. Last night's scene with Littlefinger seemed in the brothel seemed forced and gratuitous. There are too many characters and plotlines to be covered to be wasting screen time with gratuitous sex that doesn't advance the story. For instance, I had to remind my wife (who admittedly didn't read the books) who Stannis and Davos are because of how they were introduced/how little screen time there is to devote to them. But they have time to show us Littlefinger wiping off a *****'s mouth? It's being "edgy" for the sake of being "edgy", and it's a disservice to the story.

How about a quickie inventory?

Theon & captain's daughter -- expected to see it, important for character development, but didn't expect it to last long enough to include a position change.

Brothel scene -- unexpected, unnecessary, and included a facial. Really?

Theon groping Yara/Asha -- expected to see it, important for character development. No problem here.

Stannis & Mel -- unexpected, may be important to plot, but GRRM didn't feel the need to do more than hint at it.

So 50% of the sex in the episode is not in the book. (And I'm being generous throwing the grope scene in there or it would be two-thirds.) You think it's unreasonable to be surprised by this? Tell me now then, should I expect to see one of Varys' little birds buggering him in a future episode? Necrophilia isn't in the book either, but should I not be surprised if Beric and the freshly undead Catelyn get it on? Does HBO get a pass whatever it does, even if it is unexpected, just because I should know better? Where is the line, exactly?

The line comes where you feel you need to turn off the show. for me, none if the sex scenes have done a disservice to the show, and I can see the justification for all of them. but there's really no sense in debating this anymore, your opinions are valid but I still disagree and think the show is still highly representative of the book

Again, you can't expect the show to be as subtle as the books were when it comes to things like this. The books never had Ser Loras giving Renly a beejer, but it was important enough to include onthe show because it cemented that relationship in relatively short order without 15 minutes of hints and innuendos.

Theon w/ the Ship Daughter was straight from the book, as was his scene with his sister. The Stannis/Mellissandre thing was hinted at, but, like the Loras/Renly interaction, needed to be spelled out for the purposes of the show.

The only scene that could be called slightly gratuitous is the Littlefinger scene, which I'll admit was probably unnecessary. The "wipe" wasn't necessary to show Littlefinger as a grade-A A-hole. That would have come during his conversation with Roz. That said, it's HBO. They will always push those limits because they CAN. If you want a clean show with less sex, you should stick to basic cable or AMC. Showtime, HBO and Starz will always push more and more towards the NC-17 edge of an R rating because people pay extra for them to do so.

Thats the thing, Im no prude and Im finding it in poor taste to show some girl's bare ass grinding on a man region, a technicality away from showing full penetration. Nudity is one thing, but soft core pronography is quite another.

I had to apologize to a lady I recommended the show to today.

So really we are talking about the brothel scene as the others were in the book. Mel and Stannis are heavily insinuated in the book even though there it isn't stated but in the show they can't be as subtle as Martin is when he has unlimited pages.

Personally I would rate the brothel scene as the 2nd most unnecessary sex scene behind last season's sextaposition while LF told about his feelings for Cat. Personally I thought the facial was funny and the way he handled it was very LF. Clearly the show is taking LF and the created Roz character in different directions than the books but I'm willing to be patient there. LF is far more obviously evil in the show than in the books and Roz had some usefullness last season. I expect we will get more scenes in the future of similar bent but the show is strong enough to overcome it imo and I understand that HBO is trying to appeal to a broader audience than just book readers.

As a book reader I would trade all the Roz time for more Stannis/Mel/Davos or maybe Iron Islands time. I get why HBO went a different direction though.

So far I am a little disappointed in the "Yara" character btw, she isn't as good looking or as cool as I imagined her so far.

You know what? I think there should be LESS nudity and sex on the show. I feel it unnecessarily objectifies women. Right guys?

Watching the show again now... Jaqen H'gher will definitely be interesting to see in the future, and I wish Yoren didn't die so soon in Arya's storyline because his actor is awesome

Also, I thought Ghost looked even more impressive than Grey Wind did last week

Ghost looked great
Yoren was a badass in the scene in the woods
Looking forward to the colorguard melee next episode(?)

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Yoren was a badass in the scene in the woods

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oh yeah, that was so awesome

when he moved his dagger between the goldcloak's legs, i thought we were gonna get a castration joke...but to threaten to cut the guy's femoral artery? you don't get much more hardass than that

It's a bummer they're having to squeeze so much in such a tight space this season. Some of the scenes I really enjoyed from the book seemed shortened (like Tyrion taking out Janos or Theon hitting on his sister).

The only sex scene I'd complain about is the one with Stannis and Mel, but only because it seemed like Stannis was entirely too easily seduced. I'm not sure they did a good enough job setting up how puritanically just he is in the show, seeing as he's banging a priest in what... his 3rd or 4th appearance on the screen? I just wish he'd fought it off a bit longer.

As far as changes go, I think Mel definitely said Stannis' wife had produced no sons, only stillborns and babies who died in the womb, so I'm guessing the daughter's been written out. (unless someone's seen a casting list with her name on it...)

The death of a blood rider was definitely unexpected.

I have no idea of what to expect up north now that Craster has attacked Jon. That screws up a LOT of what the book does up there.

Another huge change is having Joff order the killing of the *******s. That was 100% Cersei in the books, right? In the books, I saw Joff more as a careless sociopath who didn't understand the consequences of his actions while Cersei was the scheming evil one. In the show, Joff is coming off as someone who's thinking through his crime before / while he commits them. Cersei's coming off as almost more of a victim than someone who turned her son into a monster.

Did anyone else think Theon and Asha were really stiff on screen, or was it just me?

But also remember that Joff makes impulse decisions to kill people... I really don't remember who gave the orders in ACOK, but Joff was responsible for Bran being attacked as an impulse to his dad calling him weak or something... so if he hears his mother being bothered by *******s, he's likely to take care of that as well

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I have no idea of what to expect up north now that Craster has attacked Jon. That screws up a LOT of what the book does up there.

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My guess is that they will try to fuse the two visits to Craster's keep into one and that they will change the story in some way to include sam/gilly's escape and mormont's death.

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Did anyone else think Theon and Asha were really stiff on screen, or was it just me?

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well Theon was definitely "stiff"

but i actually have continued to enjoy Alfie Allen's acting. he is Theon for me. the chick playing asha/yara is a little meh so far though

I have no complaints at all over casting. I agree that Alfie Allen is superb as Theon. I'm really looking forward to his future performances as a certain smelly prisoner. And we should get to see Brienne this week! (Hope she keeps her clothes on, though.)

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I'm with G Martin on this one. Last night's scene with Littlefinger seemed in the brothel seemed forced and gratuitous. There are too many characters and plotlines to be covered to be wasting screen time with gratuitous sex that doesn't advance the story. For instance, I had to remind my wife (who admittedly didn't read the books) who Stannis and Davos are because of how they were introduced/how little screen time there is to devote to them. But they have time to show us Littlefinger wiping off a *****'s mouth? It's being "edgy" for the sake of being "edgy", and it's a disservice to the story.

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I agree wholeheartedly.

Wow. Can't believe all the prudes on here. This is GOT on HBO. Go watch PBS. Last night's episode was not the shows best, but still better than 99% of the other crap you can watch. This is not a show for kids. A male fantasy oriented show where guys are complaining of too much sex?????

Just as a break from the "too much sex" debate.

My wife is a show watcher who hasn't read the books but is really getting into it. So yesterday she takes the kids to some jumpy house place and they have no internet but she has the IPad. So she decides to start reading the books. The thing is, I only had ADWD on the IPad and the others were paperback at the house. So she gets about 10 pages in and texts me asking "isn't ADWD the first book?" I freak and call her immediately saying "NOOOOOOOO!", she was reading Tyrion on his trip across to Pentos. So last night I went ahead and bought the 4 pack of the first books for the IPad and she started last night.

BTW, the 4 pack just combines the books so it is daunting. She is on page 90 of well over 6000.

ACB is that what actually went on during that panel at Comic Con?

Regardless, the reactions are freaking priceless.

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And we should get to see Brienne this week! (Hope she keeps her clothes on, though.)

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One of the few times I will ever hope a woman keeps her clothes on.

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ACB is that what actually went on during that panel at Comic Con?

Regardless, the reactions are freaking priceless.

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No, Jason Mamoa (Khal Drogo) said he liked doing Sci Fi/Fantasy cause you can get away with a lot more fun stuff than other genres like pulling a guys tongue out his throat and raping beautiful women to make them fall in love with you.

Cue collective facepalm.

[This message has been edited by Acosmicbandito (edited 4/10/2012 12:59p).]

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My guess is that they will try to fuse the two visits to Craster's keep into one and that they will change the story in some way to include sam/gilly's escape and mormont's death.

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I am guessing this as well.

I will need to go back and re-read ACOK etc to figure out what has been changed and what is supposed to happen.

there's no way they can fuse the two visits into one and have the lord commander die so early...i'm pretty they still have the Fist of the First men, jon's introducion to Quorin, the attack of the night's watch by the others, etc., Mormont needs to be there for all that to happen

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there's no way they can fuse the two visits into one and have the lord commander die so early...i'm pretty they still have the Fist of the First men, jon's introducion to Quorin, the attack of the night's watch by the others, etc., Mormont needs to be there for all that to happen

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It can be done.

Maybe Craster's gets attacked by wildlings or wiites or white walkers and they drive the men of the nights watch back South. During this attack, Quorrin & Jon go and do the whole "meet Igrittte" thing and Jon joins the Wildlings. Somehow the Lord Commander is killed before the men reach the wall.

The thing is, they can't use 3 or 4 episodes to show Jon fitting in and getting cozy with the wildlings if they spend 3 episodes needlessly getting the Nights watch to the fist of the 1st men. There's too much other stuff happening and the only thing that the Fist provides is the Dragon Glass. Else-wise, that battle could theoretically take place any place.

So why would Mormont die? In the books there was a good reason why the Night's Watch turned: fear and food. Right now they are well-provisioned and still unafraid.

Maybe Mormont is killed by a wildling or a wiite or something. I don't see his death as a quintessential book point that couldn't be changed for the show. His death is only necessary for Jon to become Lord Commander. The why and how of it are generally unimportant.

Being betray by his brothers is far better than getting killed by "Wildling #6." I wouldnt mind if he got killed by a WW if they figure out dragonglass doesnt hurt em (only wights).

I figure, there are a lot of men of the watch who dislike Jon at this point. Mormot has his back with Craster, and Mormot pays the price.

In the season preview we saw Rattleshirt, so we know that Jon will eventually meet him and most likely have to kill Qourin; just setting that up, maybe Mormot makes Jon go with Quorin after this fiasko.

I think they still have plenty of time to get to the Fist of the First Men. I see Jon killing Quorin and joining the wildlings in Ep. 10. So that leaves 7 more episodes to get to the Fist, Jon have his wolf dream, find the dragonglass, send Jon with Quorin, meet Yiggrit & let her go, be on the run with Quorin, and then Ep. 10.