I'm pretty sure all the Jon being a legitimate Targ theories are predicated on Rheagor marrying Lyanna and claiming that right because many Targs historically had two wives (typically their sisters). Whether or not anyone else would recognize that right is a legitimate question. Rhaegar was killed before Elia so there's no way he could have married Lyanna after Elia was dead.

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The Braavosi believe in only one god, with many faces. I would like to believe that "light" and "darkness" aren't good and evil. Mainly because it's so cliché, and it would be pretty cool too. Just two different aspects of the same god, each with its own followers. For darkness to be "evil", the old gods would have to be evil as well. And I don't see anything that makes the old gods anymore evil than the red god.

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well good and evil are just words. by that token, the others aren't "evil", they're just anti-light and pro-dark. either way my point stands, i would not be surprised to see bran's path joining with that of the others.

But if Bran will be working for the Others, which control the wights, why did they attack them at the cave entrance, was that just a ruse? And also what does that make Coldhands?

could be any number of explanations. maybe the others don't direct control over the wights like we think, or maybe they weren't aware of what bran's purpose was going to be.

as to what coldhands actually is, i still don't really have a good theory other than the classic one that it's benjen stark in some sort of other-y form

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I got that Aemon thought she gave the sword to the wrong person and misinterpreted the prophecy.

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Aemon said Stannis isnt the PTWP because the sword has no heat ...he basically deduced that this flaming sword is a merely magic trick created by Melisandre. Heat is required to fight the WWs and Stannis is being misled.

http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2012/06/04/a-game-of-thrones-hip-hop-remix-thats-shockingly-well-done/

This is awesome.

Also, not safe for non-book readers, so listen to the whole thing before you decide to share it.

People start calling the COTF pro-dark but I think you guys are reading to much into it.

It comes down to a few things:

1. Melisandre is freaked out when Bloodraven/Bran watch her through the fires. Remember Bloodraven influences the Nights Watch through the crow.

2. The COTF tell Bran to embrace the dark. Reading too much into this. It's not the metaphysical sense of dark and light.

The COTF are not fond of The Others and say so during the book furthermore there is a lot of evidence of Bloodraven helping the Nights Watch and helping others.

The relationship between the COTF, Others, Rhllor, and Drowned God is a great unknown.

Alfie Allen who plays Theon dropped a bit of a spoiler regarding Jon's parentage:

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You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely ****ed up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

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He's talking about Martin by the way.

Link to full interview: http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

Had no clue Alfie Allen's sister was Lily Allen. That video is hilarious.

Here is the video btw, Lily Allen wrote it about her brother "Alfie":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RgOm_WJKpE

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The relationship between the COTF, Others, Rhllor, and Drowned God is a great unknown.

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lol well yeah, that's why we're theorizing :P

here's my theory on each of the gods and "powers":

The Seven - wholly fake and just worshiped as some sort of idols by the Andals (which are the direct heritage of most of Westeros)

Drowned God - i do think there used to be legitimate krakens, and it's likely that we will see one at some point before the series is over IMO. this god probably stemmed from those creatures actually existing.

the Great Other and R'hllor - i think these guys are both real, and represent the classic "angels vs. demons" eternal battle; not in the sense of good and evil, just that they are both clearly some higher form that battle each other at the expense of humans. think the Diablo storyline from that franchise, if you're familiar. i also think they both have a lot of tools at their disposal that we have seen various traces of. for example, the Great Other clearly has the Others, wights, ice spiders, the Night's King (and i do think this entity will return at some point too) etc., and possibly ice dragons or something even more powerful. and R'hllor has dragons, red priests (i.e. Thoros and Melissandre), and of course Azor Ahai. a lot of this is just speculation on my part, so feel free to shoot all of it down, haha

the "Old Gods" and the Children of the Forest - i think the children themselves are a force of nature meant to strive for balance on the planet between the powers of the Great Other and R'hllor. because of that, i believe they're inherently neutral. the most obvious reason IMO why this is the case is that when they joined with the First Men to fight back the Others long ago, they didn't destroy them once and for all, but instead locked the two forces into a stalemate, which they've stayed at up until the beginning of the series. as for the Old Gods, i think this is basically just the First Men's interpretation of the CotF's powers, namely the use of Bloodraven (and now Bran) and the heart trees. to put it more straightforward, there are no "old gods", it's just the Children and whoever their Three-Eyed Crow happens to be at the time.

apart from all these directly magical forces are organizations like the warlocks and Faceless Men. i don't have a good explanation for how it works, but i think that these are men who have somehow tapped into the increased amount of magic in the world that comes from R'hllor and the Great Other being more active. this is made clearer when Pyatt Pree tells Dany that his power grows when he is near her dragons, or when the illusionists in Slaver's Bay perform crazier tricks after Dany arrives.

i don't know if any of this is even close to correct but it's fun to try and think about!

oh and to cap off all those theories, my prediction for the end of the book is the end of the current battle between the Great Other and R'hllor, with intervention by Bran and the remaining CotF, but not the complete destruction of either force. Martin will likely end up trying to mirror the current story with the long-ago battle for Westeros, and it will be implied that at some point, there will be a new Azor Ahai, and a new Night's King, etc.

history repeats itself, after all

So what do you think that means? It's sorta like a luke skywalker kinda thing?

Stannis is his dad?

Thats the thing...the Bravosii actually understand the religious angles. They actually understand that there is many-faces to the same God. And they are the only force with true staying power regardless of what happens between Good/Evil (w/e).

The irony of their power is that it derrives from a power greater than the gods/God: economics. They use human nature, debt, trade, etc to hoard gold. Matter of fact the relationship between the Iron Bank and the assassins is one in the same. "Want to assassinate a king? It will cost about a kingdom in gold" Then half a world away someone wants to borrow "Here enjoy, pay back with interest."

Im kinda disappointed that they didnt make Xaro Xhoan Daxos gay so we could have another barrage of "he was not gay in the books! curse you HBO!" from people who are unable to read between lines...

Just an FYI, even though season 2 is over, ANYTHING from Books 1 and 2 that was not directly spelled out in the show is considered a SPOILER, and is off-limits for discussion in the non-spoiler thread.

These folks have apparently redefined what "spoiler" means and have taken it to a new extreme. I used to think Spoiler was spoiling something that might happen in the future. Apparently, spoiler is telling you anything that happened in the past, present or future that was not directly shoved in your face-hole by the show.

[This message has been edited by SuperAg05 (edited 6/6/2012 1:43p).]

Super, I posted over there to you and what I mean to say is that I think folks just appreciate trying to remember little tidbits to fill in the blanks for themselves, even when it is vague or ambiguous. I fell in love with the entertainment board because of the LOST threads and that was the whole allure. Trying to parse together what was happening and enjoying the a-ha moments when people would come up with crap from the past I had forgotten about.

I'll agree with you that their definitions of spoilers is off, but I can commiserate as I am on their side of the discussion when it comes to The Walking Dead. I just think that so long as talking about the books ruins some people's good time watching the show, we should do our best to not talk about the books just as a decency is all.

MW, I agree with you on not spoiling the show/season. However, some people consider any mention of the book to be a spoiler. Even if it's on Page 1 of book 1. To me, that's not a spoiler, that's filler.

I agree. The hard is trusting someone who knows it's filler from someone who's just too dense not to reveal a larger plot line. For example, HBO clearly made it a hanger that Winterfell burned. There's no reason based on what we've seen on the show to suspect that Ramsey Bolton burned it down and turned on the Starks. The book makes that much clearer in the way they handle the Theon rebellion, and it's clear in the 2nd book.

A book reader when on the non-reader thread and responded to the speculative question of "who burned winterfell" by saying "It was Bolton. You'll learn why next season."

Fair enough, that was in the second book. Still, it's a spoiler. So just because 2nd book/2nd season is covered doesn't mean HBO is following it closely. There's still some stuff out there to divine for the non-book readers.

Fair enough. I agree that that dude that said it was the Bolton's was in the wrong. HBO meant for that to be a cliff-hanger and that may have ruined it for some people.

Though I will say this, if someone really have it some thought, they might have come to that conclusion on their own. Obviously some weren't given that opportunity.

The Bolton spoiler was especially bad because Ramsay had already been set up to be a very bad guy. He had starved Lady Hornwood and was a prisoner in Winterfell when Theon showed up. There was never any conversation from Roose in the books to Ramsay, he just went back "to get help" for Theon and instead came and massacred Cassell and then Theon.

That was important because we didn't know if Ramsay was a rebel. There was no indication he was under orders from his father. It helped to make the RW more of a shock. If someone saw how they handled Season 2 along with the "it was the Bolton's" comment they may suspect something bad is going to happen to Robb and he will be betrayed. Clearly the RW is the biggest shocker moment of the books and anything spoiler related around it would be a total jerk move.

On a similar thread on tiger droppings.com, there is a very similar conversation with complaints about spoilers. I guess one of the guys got pissed and basically ruined everything. It was tough.

I personally had the red wedding ruined for me by accident when a friend mistakenly sent me a text about it.

Another friend then ruined Jon last scene on the wall. Miserable *******s.

White Walkers thus far:







Im looking for one of Craster's exchange.

Keep the faith guys...two years from now Joffrey will be dead.

the only thing I wish is that they'd have kept Jon and Quorin's story following the books, unless I missed it in a previous episode, did Quorin ever tell Jon to do whatever was necessary to stay alive to warn the Nightswatch?

Yeha and that death will only be halfway through the season, with some great ones to close it out

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the only thing I wish is that they'd have kept Jon and Quorin's story following the books, unless I missed it in a previous episode, did Quorin ever tell Jon to do whatever was necessary to stay alive to warn the Nightswatch?

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No they didn't. I guess the producers wanted the audience to think he was going rogue.

They did though. Quorin told Jon a single brother inside Mance's camp was worth a thousand on the walls. It was two episodes ago, and they flashed back to that at the beginning of this last episode as well.

ahh thanks! I definitely missed that exchange! makes me feel better for some reason

lol @ non-readers thinking that dany is headed to westeros early next season...

please appease their absurd definitions of spoilers so we can keep discussion like this going strong

I have a feeling in book 6 the Wall will fall and I mean early.

Stannis takes out the Boltons and wins the North but it doesnt matter because the Long Night is here. Stannis is killed by the WW's but Mel and Snow escape to White Harbor, where they meet Davos and Rickon. Snow confirms Rickon is a Stark, Mel and Davos see each other for the first time since Stannis' death. They either fight or make up.

Dany burns the city to the ground and loots it mad-King style. She demand Tyrion be executed by the dragons, she yells "drakaris" Tyrion remains alive. She takes a fleet and her army West to land in King's Landing. During which time the dragons grow and grow and are nearly full grown. They feed on sailors as they travel. (Halfway there they meet the Pyke fleet, dumbass has his horn blown, "binding" to the dragons is a bad translation, the dragons "fixate" on him and burn the Iron Fleet)

Upon landing she hears of her Targaryen cousin (w/e) who raised the banners. They join armies with a pending marriage and they clean house. Dany has no reason to trust the faith of the Seven and demands all the "sparrows" to bend the knee or be consumed by her three dragons.

Davos, Mel, Rickon, Snow go to the Vale on the behest of Littlefinger. Arya now a faceless man is contracted to kill Cersei for failure to pay the Iron Bank of Bravos (deal hashed out by Stannis and the Bravos emissary).

Littlefinger strikes an alliance between the Vale/Starks and the Targaryens by declaring Bran dead and offering Rickon to marry a Dornish princess (bannermen of the Targs) after a marriage of Robert Arryn and Sansa Stark.

Meanwhile the White Walkers have conquered the north and the riverlands, Pyke is frozen in sea and salt.

Dany turns north to meet the ice with fire, Ayra infiltrates the army maybe as a Unsullied (no d-ck). The ice is too much for cold-blooded dragons and Mel suggests a plan. Kingsblood as a sacrifice for the Stone Dragon (of Dragonstone). yes we are back to that. Aegon/Griff is sacrificed to raise the Stone Dragon.

Meanwhile Reed pops out and declares Snow a Targaryen and that the Stark bloodline is the only hope Westeros has. He explains the COTF to Snow and Dany. Dany now has three dragonriders and a 4th invincible dragon. They attack WWers forcing them back to Moat Caitlin. At which time Jon approaches a heart tree and meldes himself into all heart-trees and they collectively drown the entire northern continent and the COTF, the Wall into the ocean. Some prophesy of an eternal spring is achieved.


Book 7

All is well, Dany proclaims herself Queen (keeping the fact that she is barren) She claims Tyrion as her husband. He tries and tries and tries to get her pregnant. And then tries one more time. Then bam! Jaime kills Tyrion. The Mountain kills Dany and the Hound kills the Mountain.

The Tyrells claim the Crown and they find Varys and kill him (remember Varys left the Highgarden coinage in the prison-keepers quarters)

Then Arya meets Sansa and Littlefinger, she kills LF because of the betrayal of Ned and frees Sansa (now pregnant with Baelish's baby, officially Roberty Arryn's before he died), Arya forces moon tea into Sansa.

Sansa is married to the disabled Tyrell because Robbert Arryn dies of natural wussiness. Arya while returning from war finds Nymeria and becomes a warg/facelessman/omfg-killer and she finds the remains of Catelyn and she just starts killing every one on her list.

The Seven (reinstated by the Tyrells) the Citadel, certain questions still exist. Dany and the four are gone but the magic hasnt left. Somehow the PTWP ends up being Rickon and the Tyrells are destroyed and the Dorne/Stark age begins.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 6/6/2012 7:14p).]

well.. uh.. yeah.

There, I just saved everyone a decade of waiting.

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March 22, 2013
Featured speaker at "Deeper Than Swords: Celebrating the Work of George R. R. Martin"

Cushing Memorial Library, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas, USA

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I mentioned this on the season 1 thread, but he stated on his blog after finishing the manuscript for ADWD that he sent a copy to Cushing, just as he has with all his manuscripts.