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2 completely newly made up scenes that have no bearing on the key issues of the book is a disappointment.

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the tent thing was mostly fan-service (though i admittedly loved that scene cause drogo is awesome), but i think you can read a lot more into the wrecked throne room with snow coming in, as well as dany walking underneath the Wall

I kept looking for a blue flower in the Wall. Also it looked like the Red Keep had been burned by dragon fire which certainly was bizarre. I guess it is fine as a stand alone but it just has nothing at all to do with the story in the books. I completely get that they can't copy the books and I don't expect them to but such a radical change from the story just is a bummer. I've probably read the HotU chapter 20 times because it is so critical, I know they couldn't put it all in there but really all that was similar was Dany having the dragons burn the place down (though in the books it is only one dragon but that doesn't really matter).

Part of it as well is I thought this was the best chance to incorporate the importance of the past in understanding the present and future and that has been ignored for the most part this year outside of a few tidbits. Last season they made a lot more of an effort. For instance, if they bring up Lyanna or Rhaegar next season a lot of viewers will probably be "who was that? In the end I guess that is ok but it's just disappointing as I said. Still love the show and it is the best thing on TV by far.

aggies,

It's just like the faceless men comment, unless you are looking at HBOgo or do some internet digging or have read the books, when Jaquen made that comment non-readers/non-spoilers have a CLUE what a facelessman is, and are so lost right now it's not even funny.

I don't think that the HoU change will matter much, they'll still get the point across.

How exactly do you know which visions in the house of the undying are critical to the story? As I understand it pretty much nobody bar a few people on the westeros.org forum and the two showrunners know what the main plot point end is.

Much of the foreshadowing and historical dialogue has been cut from the show, and yet they barely are able to maintain the present-time storyline at a pace that is acceptable to viewers. Stuff like foreshadowing and prophecy will probably start to become important near to the events that it predicts to save time.

It's a tv show, which is lower rung in the industry anyway (vs movies) and yet it has excellent production for a period/fantasy piece, as long as that quality stays high I pretty much have to be happy with the product.

I get that it is a TV show and the best one out there working with limited resources to make an unlimited show. Still love it but that doesn't mean it doesn't have parts that disappoint me.

Specifically the 2 things I wanted out of the HotU were the "3's prophecies" and the mention of the PTWP somehow (even if they didn't have Rhaegar). Would the "3s" be confusing? Somewhat, but they would likely encourage a lot of thought to some and to others just blow by them. The PTWP would be good to connect the idea that Stannis is not the only candidate and that the whole story connects, in the end it is understanding what "Ice and Fire" is.

I agree the FM was confusing but I don't think it was because of the mention of the name. It was confusing because of the magic. The magic is what is hardest to keep the casual viewers engaged with because they typically aren't Science Fiction types. Prophecies are pretty low grade magic compared to having Pyatt Pree become several different images and magically lock up Dany just by looking at her. When watching it with my wife last night that was what was losing her and I couldn't help other than to say "well its not in the books either so I don't know".

So my main point is that I disagree with some of the added magic with the detraction of the book magic (or more importantly prophecies). Of course, they also didn't ask me to consult on the show for my opinion for some reason.

I'm a little disappointed that the handmaidens are all killed off as I was looking forward to some Dany lesbo scenes. Cercei has some coming up as well if I remember correctly.

Theon's "St. Crispen's Day" speech was friggin' great. Loved that they ditched the cliched response and knocked him out.

"Well he was giving a pretty good speech"

BTW, I certainly understand why they cut anything having to do with foreshadowing the RW as they did with at least 3 prophecies in the books (HotU, Patchface, and Ghost of High Heart) because trying to keep the RW a shocker is going to be a huge challenge as it is.

I know my wife last night got very upset seeing Winterfell burning and Maester Luwin dying and she asked me, "So was that the part of the books where you threw the book across the room?" to which I replied, "No, that hasn't happened yet." Then she just said "Holy ****!"

Alfie Allen has been amazing this season. Really bummed we won't be seeing Theon/Reek for a long time and it may not be Alfie when we do. That said, couldn't have had a better "send off".

If you cannot separate the show from the books, you will never be able to enjoy the show.

It is not like they are changing really major stuff like having Robb survive and take Kings Landing or Dany's dragons grow up really fast so they can invade Westeros next season.

I think the TV series will actually help AFFC and DWD. I think the first three books are as good as it gets but the 4 and 5 do not work as well because of the way he separated the characters and the books' overlapping time lines. I also think there is quite a bit in both books that really is not going to be a big deal at the end.

The seasons that cover those books will probably do a lot to streamline them.

I think those missing the Westeros histories/prophecies will be surprised over the next two seasons. I think that structure will allow them to put that information in.

AFFC and DWD will be done as 2 seasons but they will blend the stories. It will be awesome to see Sunspear and the Water Gardens of House Martell and the Sand Snakes....

WHAT IS DEAD MAY NEVER <dunk>

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It will be awesome to see Sunspear and the Water Gardens of House Martell and the Sand Snakes....

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One thing I've realized with the show versus the books - don't expect to see every great place, location in the show. I expect some of it to be there, but also expect that some places that I look forward to either won't be in the story line, or won't be as good as I imagined them to be.

Good example - the house of the undying. From my perspective, and a lot of other posters, it looks like it didn't live up to the expectations. I am sure there are other examples, but I can't think of them right now.

Not complaining about the show, but I have just accepted that some things won't be shown or will have to be changed in the show due to different story lines or budget constraints.

What Stannis saw in the fire:

i'm getting sick of the westeros.org forums. those people can not separate the book and the show and it is miserable in some of the threads over there with all the griping

kinda reminds me of all the diablo 3 griping by the hardcore "diablo purists"

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Specifically the 2 things I wanted out of the HotU were the "3's prophecies" and the mention of the PTWP somehow (even if they didn't have Rhaegar). Would the "3s" be confusing? Somewhat, but they would likely encourage a lot of thought to some and to others just blow by them. The PTWP would be good to connect the idea that Stannis is not the only candidate and that the whole story connects, in the end it is understanding what "Ice and Fire" is.

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If we accept it as true that:

(1) GRRM is behind what's driving the show;

AND

(2) GRRM is making sure the important elements are not cut from the book so as to make the story somewhat cohesive

then I have a few concerns. Specifically, much of the speculation about R+L=J speculation comes in part from the idea of the dragon with three heads which is churned out of the vision Dany gets at the House of the Undying and her seeing the blue rose in the ice (well, that and what Ned has said about the battle at the Tower of Joy).

The show has made sure we see the prophecy from Melisandre, and they have played pretty heavy with the whole "They think it's Stannis but it could be Dany!" bit.

So either HBO has something up their sleeve in Season 3 to hammer home the "Jon could be Azor Ahai", or the show is going to be different from the books, or Jon as AA in the books is an elaborate deek out and GRRM is going five hole by making it Dany after all.

MW,

I don't accept either of those assumptions. GRRM chose D&D because they wanted to keep the story fairly pure but in the end they are driving the show and he has no control. He also has said he has told them how it generally will end but that's it. The divergence from the books and the show is going to get greater and greater, Dany's story is already completely different though they could pull it back.

I also agree some of the Westeros folks are extreme. They get upset at every change and that's just unreasonable. The HotU along with Robb's wife not being Jeyne Westerling are really the only two things that I really didn't care for. Still love the show, just wish they had kept those 2 things. Some of the ads have been fantastic as well, every Tyrion/Arya scene was money and none of them are in the books.

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GRRM chose D&D because they wanted to keep the story fairly pure but in the end they are driving the show and he has no control. He also has said he has told them how it generally will end but that's it.

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That's my fear, though. GRRM said "Look, Dany is going to end up as the prince that was promised" and then HBO dumbing down the story.

I am sure I am overreaching, or at least, I hope so.

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AFFC and DWD will be done as 2 seasons but they will blend the stories. It will be awesome to see Sunspear and the Water Gardens of House Martell and the Sand Snakes....

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I am thinking Dorne could come into play as soon as the second season book 3.

As for AA/PtwP/R+L=J, I do think we get R+L=J at some point in seasons 3 and 4. Otherwise there is no real point to bringing the Reeds at this point.

Frankly, I think HBO is missing the boat in not getting things like dunk & egg, westeros history, etc. onto hbogo in some shape or form. They might have but I haven't really looked. But I think animated shorts of these things would go over pretty well.

never read any of the "dunk and egg" stuff. recommended?

Absolutely love D&E. First off, it's an easy read with each story being about 100 pages. Second, the story is good and shows the world of Westeros at a more common man's view. Third, it will give you a much deeper appreciation for how the world came to be and connects many dots (especially for the ASOIF addict). Another big plus is it shows a lot of Targs and goes into the Blackfyre Rebellion quite a bit which is fascinating.

Oh, and Bloodraven is just a tree in the Books but in D&E he is still Hand of the King and a complete badass. Definitely one of GRRM's coolest characters.

I agree on the recs for the D&E stuff.

Frankly, I liked it because it gives me more backstory on Westeros during the Targ era and further exhibits what a rich world Martin created.

If GoT continues to be popular there is a ton of stuff to be mined from that universe.

I would enjoy seeing the Dunk and Egg tales as 3 2 hour movies. Great little books and I cant wait till he releases the one set in Winterfell.

I hope they don't embellish that "arya gets hit with an axe" scene at the beginning of next season or else the unsullied are going to be confused why BillOCH was posting about Bran and Arya and Tyriin etc seasons down the road....

Beginning of next season?

Or middle, whatever.

With book 3 split in two, I should think it would be the end of next season

jjxvi

I will say that at least you're not the dick who straight up said "the Boltons burned Winterfell, you'll find out all about it next season!"

Wtf?

[This message has been edited by Jjxvi (edited 6/4/2012 10:11p).]

Why not just say, "There is this big event called the Red Wedding that is going to really make you angry, you will find out next year!"

i don't think anyone said either of those things

Someone went nuclear on the corresponding thread for non-readers over on TigerDroppings. Poor *******s. Guess he got tired of reading about spoilers.

Someone did post that about the Boltons on the other thread. Verbatim.