Even though that was mostly joking, there's no way Dany leaves mereen w/o Victarions fleet. He's just off yunkai and she has to deal with (take) Magos khalasar to break the siege. He probly won't try to blow the horn til they're back in westeros

If you don't mind a WoW spoiler, here is part of a Victarion chapter that Martin recently read:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/r1v01/transcript_of_the_excerpt_from_the_victarion

Minor nitpick btw. They are doing some lazy writing on the Gods of the North. No way would a Stark King be married in a ceremony of the Seven, esp when his bride didn't follow the Seven either. Another minor thing was Lord Karstark tells Cat "I would cut out my heart and offer it to the Father if it would bring my son back." The Karstark's definitely do not follow the Seven.

I can't decide if I want to get spoiled on wow or not...I avoided all dance chapters before it came out but I'm just so tempted this time around

quote:

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According to Plutarch, as Caesar arrived at the Senate Tillius Cimber presented him with a petition to recall his exiled brother.[9] The other conspirators crowded round to offer their support. Both Plutarch and Suetonius say that Caesar waved him away, but Cimber grabbed Caesar's shoulders and pulled down Caesar's tunic. Caesar then cried to Cimber, "Why, this is violence!" ("Ista quidem vis est!").[10] At the same time, Casca produced his dagger and made a glancing thrust at the dictator's neck. Caesar turned around quickly and caught Casca by the arm. According to Plutarch, he said in Latin, "Casca, you villain, what are you doing?"[11] Casca, frightened, shouted "Help, brother!" in Greek ("ἀδελφέ, βοήθει", "adelphe, boethei"). Within moments, the entire group, including Brutus, was striking out at the dictator. Caesar attempted to get away, but, blinded by blood, he tripped and fell; the men continued stabbing him as he lay defenseless on the lower steps of the portico. According to Eutropius, around 60 or more men participated in the assassination. Caesar was stabbed 23 times.[12] Suetonius relates that a physician who performed an autopsy on Caesar established that only one wound (the second one to his chest) had been fatal. This autopsy report (the earliest known post-mortem report in history) describes that Caesar's death was mostly attributable to blood loss from the multiple stab wounds.[13]

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(from wiki)

Coincidence?

@93
Well there goes part of what I thought. Very cool though, thanks for that, he's really one of my favorite characters but I have a feeling he wont make it long. Im sure the 'glory' Moqorro sees in the flames is his death by dragons

[This message has been edited by redbaron788 (edited 6/6/2012 10:55p).]

Victarian is my favorite of the Ironborn......

ADWD Spoiler....


When I read the Epilogue I was under the impression that the tomcat(Rhaenys cat Balerion) which hissed at Tommen was being warged by Arya.

There is currently a debate on Reddit about wether or not that is an accurate interp.

Thoughts?

quote:

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Yeha and that death will only be halfway through the season, with some great ones to close it out

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As I pointed out on the other thread, we can't be sure at all when certain major plot points are going to happen or even in which order or in which season because ASOS is going to be stretched over 2 years. It's unfortunately just too dangerous to talk about what's in the books anymore, however obliquely.

No comments on the similarities between the assassination of Caesar and the way Snow went down? Trying to get stabbed in the neck... catching his attacker's hand and asking "why", getting scratched, then attacked from all sides and everyone taking part.

I thought it was cool.

[This message has been edited by MW03 (edited 6/7/2012 11:05a).]

I thought it was obviously Caesar-esque as I read it.

MW,

It definitely had the Caesar feel.

The thing I can't help but think about though from that scene is how Martin lost a bet to a Cowboys fan to include the Cowboy "Star" as a shield for the knight that gets killed at the same time. Of course he is killed by a giant and Martin is a huge NYG fan.

quote:

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No comments on the similarities between the assassination of Caesar and the way Snow went down? Trying to get stabbed in the neck... catching his attacker's hand and asking "why", getting scratched, then attacked from all sides and everyone taking part.

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I make the connection, but that's pretty cool. OTOH, I thought the motive was dumb. Are we supposed to believe that the Night's Watch is so racist that they would kill their commander and let all the wildlings turn into zombies rather than to try and make peace?

quote:

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I make the connection, but that's pretty cool. OTOH, I thought the motive was dumb. Are we supposed to believe that the Night's Watch is so racist that they would kill their commander and let all the wildlings turn into zombies rather than to try and make peace?

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I wonder if they mutinied because they were afraid that Ramsay Snow was about to smash the Night's Watch. Obviously, they had problems with what Jon was doing with the Wildings and with Stannis, but they may have decided to save the Watch from Ramsay if they truly believed Stannis had lost.

That leads me to also believe that Melisandre is the one who is going to "Beric" old Jon Snow. The letter demanded Melisandre as well, and if she is set upon by the NW to be delivered to Ramsay, then she might have no choice but to revive Jon so they than can team up.

Saying that, I am of the opinion that Ramsay's letter is a dirty lie because I don't think Stannis would die without some kind of POV chapter to tell the story.

There is another theory floating around that Sixskins (the warg featured in the prologue) warged into Snow's steward, which is why he said "it wasn't me" when Jon questioned him. I find this interesting as well.

quote:

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Are we supposed to believe that the Night's Watch is so racist that they would kill their commander and let all the wildlings turn into zombies rather than to try and make peace?

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Its not that far fetched... They fought him every step of the way.

Dishonorable Dany?

We all here are familiar with the Red Wedding. I just came to the realization that Dany may have broken her "guest agreement" by killing Xaro in the show. He vouched for her and took her into his home, feasted etc.

IDK if you could claim Xaro was directly responsible for the dragon theft/dothraki deaths, or if that was all the warlock dude. Maybe their agreement was the warlock kills the 13, he gets the dragons and Xaro gets to be king. If Xaro and the warlock had their way Dany wouldnt be harmed.

Clearly such actions would not be tolerated in Westeros and perhaps "guest protection" only exists in the light of the Seven.

It's a lie because the Manderlys and Stannis are about to go 'Pskov' on the Boltons/frey's


Soooo... That would be three major historical events that are being replicated by GRRM. War of the Roses, Assasination of Julis Caesar, and Alexander Nevsky.

Martin is pulling a bunch of idea from our world...

I think "guest right" is a Westerosi custom and doesn't apply elsewhere. Also it is technically from the host to the guest and not the other way around so Dany may not have violated the protocol.

Of course, that is microscopic compared to how far off the show has gone this season on Dany's story.

MW03, another interesting thing to ponder - the men who killed Caesar did it to save the Republic from Caesar's increasingly king-like tendencies. Instead their actions directly led to the establishment of an Emperor. Hell, the emperors were actually called "caesars" - talk about rubbing their faces in it.

Not sure if Martin was actually going for an analogy, or simply evoking the most famous assassination in literature, but it will be interesting to see what happens to the Night's Watch.

Not that we all haven't speculated this, but here is a potential HUGE SPOILER BELOW revealed by Alfie Allen straight from GRRM's mouth:

quote:

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Theon Greyjoy actor Alfie Allen reveals he asked George R.R. Martin the answer to one of the saga's biggest unsolved mysteries, and his answer certainly drops some potentially massive clues:


You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely *&cked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though.

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http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html





























End Spoiler

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 6/7/2012 4:29p).]

lol sounds like GRRM was having a go at him and told him Jon's parents are related to each other.

Not to mention, to a casual reader/non reader Rhaegar is a bad guy, who kidnapped Lyanna and precipitated Roberts Rebellion. If he is Jon's father, that could fit.

Frankly, I think Martin is messing with him. I can't believe he'd let a spoiler of that magnitude out to someone who could easily slip and reveal it. Telling the producers is one thing.

Yeah if he's referencing the "no I am your father" Luke thing instead of the dirty bro sis makeout thing than that makes sense.

The last part about Targ incest doesn't really relate to the subject matter.

I think R+L=J is so common knowledge since there's been so much time BW books that GRRM is trying to find a different way out lol

Doesn't the snippet from WoW (Theon POV) released in Nov/Dec last year kind of answer the question of the letter's validity? I may be missing a timeline issue. Please correct me if so.

That's what I was thinking bdenby, just cause of the timing and all. Also it could've been forged by one of the NW conspirators, but its definitely not a legitimate letter

Martin has confirmed that the timelines aren't in synch so the letter could theoretically be legit, though I seriously doubt it.

Do you guys know the story of Alexander Nevsky?

Basically Russian Peasants beat German Invaders by luring them onto a frozen lake where the Germans break through the ice and drown.

If you read the Theon chapter the lake is starting to center hugely in Stannis plans since he knows the Frey's/Manderlys are coming and he'll know soon enough the Manderlys are on his side. I'd expect a switcharoo at the last minute and they feed the Boltons bad info.

If you look at the Skywalker story from the standpoint he was the secret offspring of royalty and hidden away to save the universe then it makes sense...

Nevsky based his story on the historical Battle of the Ice between the Russians and Teutonic Knights. I'm not sure Martin will use this plot device since it was used in the king author movie with Kiera Knightly a few years ago.

Martin has no issue stealing ideas from other sources... Please see Farseer Trilogy.

No idea what the farseer trilogy is. I read about 90% nonfiction.

The whole Jon arc is a huge ripoff of a central character in that series. Especially WRT to the 'death' scene at the end of ADWD.

GRRM has basically taken a number of fantasy ideas and thrown them into one series.

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of things in ASOIAF that are nothing more than standard fantasy clichés or memes. (e.g., dragon-riding, swords with special properties, knights, zombies, prophecies of a "savior", history cycles, magical items, secret assassin guilds, past cataclysmic events that "broke" or changed the world, characters with royal blood who are unaware of their true ancestry, strong female warriors, "stranger in a strange land" character arcs, rightful king fights to win back kingdom from usurper.) One can hardly write ANY fantasy fiction without using a combination of these elements.

Yeah, I could see some of you remarking how lazy Martin is if he wrote a Western and included gunfights and Indians.

Right now I would say that Martin is not ripping off the Farseer Trilogy yet; fantasy elements are pretty standard and he pulls from a number of sources. There are only so many ideas in the world and the trick is to write them so that they seem original and new. So far Martin has done this beautifully.

HOWEVER - the central plot of the Farseer trilogy is that the main character, a ******* son of the would-be king, is killed by his own people, and wargs into his companion wolf in order to "stay alive" while his body is buried. He then wargs back into his own body to continue the fight. If Martin goes in this direction with Jon's story, I believe we we will have crossed the line from homage to out and out ripoff. And believe me, in the world of fantasy literature the Farseer trilogy s not an obscure little book. It's a well-known story.

Which is why I'd be surprised if Martin goes there, even though a lot of foreshadowing is pointing that way. Martin really prides himself on subverting fantasy tropes; killing off his heroes, making them flawed and disfigured, and not following the linear "hero's path." His good guys are not perfect and his bad guys aren't all evil (except for maybe Roose Bolton LOL). Having such a major plot resolution copy the plot of another, well known fantasy story to that extreme doesn't seem to fit.