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It all hinges on the new sheriff. He seems about ready to rebel against that creepy federal agent guy, and learning of the suicide attempt will be the final straw.

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+1...I think the sherieff is starting to see the ugly underbelly of the legal system above him and will end up like unser in a way...maybe not to that extent, but he even told Juice that he wasn't after the club, just the drugs, so why not right?

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but he even told Juice that he wasn't after the club, just the drugs, so why not right?

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Hard to believe that though. The sheriff was in town before most of the club got released to clean up Charming from SAMCRO. This was before they were ever running drugs.

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but did anyone else really feel like the scene with Juice and Clay was a powerful one? I thought Juice nailed that one emotionally.

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For a half second, I thought maybe Clay was doing it to see his reaction, figure out where he is coming from - like Gus Fring would have. But then I quickly remembered Clay is an old, arthritic dumbass.

And I just don't buy that whole scene in the apartment. What were there, like a dozen Mexicans in that one room, brother, sister, Mom, four kids? Child Please. In THAT apartment? Where were the rest of them?

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And I just don't buy that whole scene in the apartment. What were there, like a dozen Mexicans in that one room, brother, sister, Mom, four kids? Child Please. In THAT apartment? Where were the rest of them?

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How is the "Men Of Mayhem" patch earned?

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kill someone one behalf of the club or for club business i believe

I just can't buy into the Juice subplot. He's done alot for SAMCRO. I believe the SOA guys would judge him on his years of loyalty to the club over his family tree.

you would probably be right...until he went ahead and actually ratted on the club by bringing the sherriff the coke

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I believe the SOA guys would judge him on his years of loyalty to the club over his family tree.

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No way. These aren't nice people. They can be nice when needed, but no well in hell they give him a pass.

I have a lot harder time buying into the race thing. Not because it does not exist in MC's, but because Sutter did a poor job leading up to it making it a known issue for the Sons. Sure, he can explain it on his blog or whatever, but the show should have done a better job. But, I can at least buy into it because it's obvious it scared Juice.

Right, that's what I mean about the Juice subplot of him turning into a snitch. I don't think he had to rat out SAMCRO over who his Daddy is after he 's been with them for years and stood by them. He was part of the family and had proved his mettle in battle. Juice should have just come clean about his Father to the MC and what the Sheriff was trying to do and then the Sheriff wouldn't have had any leverage over him.

*********************************************************************************************************************
"Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women."



Claude os, aperi oculos!

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Juice should have just come clean about his Father to the MC and what the Sheriff was trying to do and then the Sheriff wouldn't have had any leverage over him.

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They did a poor job explaining why race is a problem to the club, but it obviously is and against the rules (the conversation with Chibs helped a bit, but they should have done more earlier like show another chapter dealing with something like this) and no matter how much they like Juice if they find out he was keeping something like this hidden they're going to do bad things.

His best bet would have gone to someone like Jax, who can actually think for himself and has issues with parts of the club and explained the situation. No way could he go to the whole club though.

On that note, there's apparently now an Asian prospect. So I guess every other race is fine.

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They did a poor job explaining why race is a problem to the club, but it obviously is and against the rules (the conversation with Chibs helped a bit, but they should have done more earlier like show another chapter dealing with something like this) and no matter how much they like Juice if they find out he was keeping something like this hidden they're going to do bad things.

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imo, you've got it backward. regardless of how racist actual 1% MCs are, this show has spent 4 full seasons without even a hint of racism from the members. so, the problem isnt that they "did a poor job explaining why race is a problem for the club" - imo the problem is that they got extremely lazy and chose a terrible plot line for getting a member of the club to flip and work with the police.

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chose a terrible plot line for getting a member of the club to flip and work with the police

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That's a really good point. Now that I think about the whole thing, I tend to agree with you.

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They did a poor job explaining why race is a problem to the club, but it obviously is and against the rules (the conversation with Chibs helped a bit, but they should have done more earlier like show another chapter dealing with something like this) and no matter how much they like Juice if they find out he was keeping something like this hidden they're going to do bad things.

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Kurt Sutter addressed this on his blog recently: http://sutterink.blogspot.com/2011/09/black-and-white-of-mcs.html

definitely worth a read if you didnt already read it when it was posted on this thread about 6 pages ago.

I know he addressed it in his blog, but the shoe should stand w/o needing to read his blog or apps to understand.

I'm not sure I really need any explaination or lead in to explain the no black thing. We're all looking at this from an audience perspective expecting everything to be spoon fed to us. If this were just a window into real life I doubt they would constantly go around reiterating the fact there was a rule about no blacks. It would just be a known rule within the club, be it written or unwritten, it's understood and unquestioned. If the Juice situation never came about, that rule would still be in place and we as an audience would just never know about it.

I agree with bojangles, having Juice turn rat over the "no blacks" rule is poor writing.

I agree with bojangles that that blog post by sutter was posted many pages ago.

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I'm not sure I really need any explaination or lead in to explain the no black thing. We're all looking at this from an audience perspective expecting everything to be spoon fed to us. If this were just a window into real life I doubt they would constantly go around reiterating the fact there was a rule about no blacks. It would just be a known rule within the club, be it written or unwritten, it's understood and unquestioned. If the Juice situation never came about, that rule would still be in place and we as an audience would just never know about it.

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+1...for everyone saying it's poor writing, or that it should've been stated that the club is racist, or whatver, is that not what the show is doing now? It's basically telling us by the way their dealing w/ it w/out having a "John Teller" Narration stating that the SOA don't like black people.

Don't you think that if it was even an option, w/ as much as Juice Loves the MC that if he could've brought it to them he would've? Hell, the USDA even said let's see if the fear of getting killed for being a rat outweighs the fear of the MC finding out his linage (or something to that affect.) I'm mean they've told us numerous times w/out spelling it on a billboard.

Clay has gone off the deep end!

Maybe I'm just easily entertained these days...but dang I'm loving this season.

And I'm really going to miss that character.

X 1000

I liked Piney! Crapcrapcrapcrapcrap.

Man someone had to go, and now I think Bobby's on deck for the bullet.

I'm just unclear as to how they'll end this season to be able to roll into another one seamlessly. I mean think about it, Tara, Bobby, and Unser could all be killed in the next 4 episodes...then what? You can't kill that many people and not know it's Clay could you?

I guess they could blame it on the Cartel wars, but Gemma and Unser in the preview for next week say "this had to be Clay" and when Gemma was talking to him when he was saying he needed to stay at the clubhouse she seemed suspicious then too...does she back her man even if it means killing her daughter-in-law?

And how much does Chibs know? Does he just think that Juice is a coward for trying to kill himself, or did he put it all together and just assume he was the rat?

When Piney and Opie reconciled, then hugged, I knew Piney was doomed.

Opie had now lost a wife and father due to Clay.

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And how much does Chibs know? Does he just think that Juice is a coward for trying to kill himself, or did he put it all together and just assume he was the rat?

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I don't think he knows about being a rat...nothing has hinted at that. I think he knows that it was Juice who took the cocaine (not why though) and not Miles. Juice was acting funny all along...he had asked Chibs about the black wife/girlfriend thing... So what I think Chibs was yelling about was he now knows it was Juice in the wrong regarding the coke and that he tried to kill himself.

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When Piney and Opie reconciled, then hugged, I knew Piney was doomed

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Thought the exact same thing. {But I admit...I've thought that about several other characters at several other times and been wrong.)



[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 10/26/2011 7:48a).]

[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 10/26/2011 7:55a).]

Man, let Opie get word it was Clay, it'd be a wrap for him at that point...try and stop Opie was ripping Clays head off.

Oh, I haven't seen this asked so SIAP, but what did Clay write on that old picture in blood? It looked like initials but I couldn't tell.

Looked like Clay was writing the initials of the rival cartel..,

Prepyag, It looked like he wrote "LS" on the picture. And also, Gemma was suspicious because Clay said he was staying at the clubhouse, but Gemma was at the clubhouse during the phone call.

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And also, Gemma was suspicious because Clay said he was staying at the clubhouse, but Gemma was at the clubhouse during the phone call.

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This.

Exactly why she knows it was him next episode.

LS is Lobo Sonora I believe... That's the name of the head choppers they're now dealing with from south of the border. Anybody want some Chucky Chili?



This show has been really neat to watch develop. The first 2 seasons, it felt like the episodes/story arcs were pretty shallow. And from time to time you get some of that in individual episodes. But the story arcs and over all plot development has gotten really in depth (in my opinion) over the 2nd half of last season and the first half of this one. It has really "grown" if that makes sense.



[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 10/26/2011 9:14a).]

This season kicks ass. Clay is about to get did. Hellboy 3!!!

I like that they’ve dragged the whole John Teller storyline out over the entire 4 seasons. I still think there is a ton of stuff we don’t know about JT. Did Jax mention something to Piney about a brother of his that JT bailed on when times were tough or something along those lines? I don’t remember ever hearing about a brother.

The only thing I’m not digging is this whole if anyone is a problem just kill him. This seems to be getting slightly out of hand and the show can’t sustain this pattern. Seems like Sutter is going to have to get creative to keep the show from falling into just a shoot ‘em up action series.


[This message has been edited by Ag_07 (edited 10/26/2011 9:38a).]