Based on my current knowledge of one particular Civil War era SMC, I can confirm these statements are not true. I can also confirm that they make just as much fun of their Band as the Corps Turds at A&M do. And their class ring is bigger than ours (as if size matters).jd.sully5221 said:
The bottom line is no other SMC has the same kind of outfit culture we do. Other SMCs PT only with their ROTC units, are forced into certain outfits, and can easily be tossed between them.
Policy Update for the 2017- 2018 Corps Year
58,604 Views |
350 Replies |
Last: 7 yr ago by HollywoodBQ
I think the idea of everybody getting their Corps Brass at the same time is a little silly even though that's essentially how we did it in the Band. There was no distinction between how redass B-Co fish were and how bagged out B-Batt fish werejmadison2020 said:
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
Corps Brass will be conducted solely on West Campus
Wed 22 Nov (Reading Day)
Corps movement to West Campus
Designated areas for PT sessions
Brass awarded at Corps formation
Return to Quad as a Corps
When I was in the Corps, I always thought it was weird that some Corps Turd fish would get their Corps Brass very early and others would be months behind. I definitely thought that was a problem that needed fixing 25 years ago.
As far as the organized running standards. I HATE running. But, I wound up in B-Co (Jay Brewer acted like he was doing me a personal favor when he said he was assigning me to B-Company) which was known for being Corps Bloody Cross Champions the previous year. Man, we did some running. 3-4 miles at a sub 7 minute pace. Pig Farm like it was no big deal. I'm not capable of that by myself on an Army PFT but, running in formation, not wanting to fall out, I somehow managed (barely). It's good to force cadets to go farther than what they think is possible. Heck, that's pretty much the whole reason to join the Corps of Cadets right there. And of course to get dates to Football games who wanted to dress up and sit with the Band (I know Band Dates are ancient history).
Corps Run on Friday after Thursday night Airout
Spolier Alert next time. Pretty Please
Spolier Alert next time. Pretty Please
-----------
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
. . . .
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
-----------
I am a '00 CT that went on to be an Army PA. I think we are jumping to conclusions about how bad the alleged proposed PT program is. I don't know how closely this mirrors the current PT program, but the idea looks to be to ease new cadets (and cadets returning from summer vacation that didn't PT) into running and minimize injury. We have seen the overall decline of the athletic ability of Army recruits... I'm sure the Corps faces the same thing. I've seen too many young men and women get broken off by overzealous sergeants in the Army... most cadet sergeants and officers are not any smarter than these sergeants when it comes to training.
It looks like cadets will start slow and short (which is what you'd want to do in any plan for new runners) but by November, cadets should be running with their units for distances of around 3-4 miles at an 8 minute pace. This is right at passing for 17-21 y/o males on the Army PFT and almost maxing for 17-21 y/o females.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/army-fitness-requirements/army-pft-two-mile-run-score-chart#1
Keep in mind that this is only mandatory PT. Can the gazelles get out there and do harder PT on their own in August? Of course, and they should so that they don't let their own fitness slide. Also keep in mind... this is now November. There's the entire rest of the year for units to continue to improve their run times. We (at least I) don't know how many overuse injuries are occurring... I would guess it is more now than 21 years ago when I was a fish.
I don't know what "No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving" means, though, and if the OP wants to elaborate on that, I'd be interested to hear it.
Other musings: sad about the water fight supposedly going away. A better (but admittedly harder) solution would be to emphasize safety and punish the individual idiots that are seen doing stupid stuff.
I'm also curious about what this means: MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit. How long do the MU trainers work with the fish vs unit cadre? Couldn't we send unit cadre to a "train the trainer" session so that they are trained on Corps standards for FOW basic skills and then the unit cadre can train the fish more?
Bottom line: it is too early to sound the general "Old Army has gone to hell" alarm after a few bullet points without elaboration or context. Some of this stuff is also "in the works" and not finalized yet.
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
. . . .
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
-----------
I am a '00 CT that went on to be an Army PA. I think we are jumping to conclusions about how bad the alleged proposed PT program is. I don't know how closely this mirrors the current PT program, but the idea looks to be to ease new cadets (and cadets returning from summer vacation that didn't PT) into running and minimize injury. We have seen the overall decline of the athletic ability of Army recruits... I'm sure the Corps faces the same thing. I've seen too many young men and women get broken off by overzealous sergeants in the Army... most cadet sergeants and officers are not any smarter than these sergeants when it comes to training.
It looks like cadets will start slow and short (which is what you'd want to do in any plan for new runners) but by November, cadets should be running with their units for distances of around 3-4 miles at an 8 minute pace. This is right at passing for 17-21 y/o males on the Army PFT and almost maxing for 17-21 y/o females.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/army-fitness-requirements/army-pft-two-mile-run-score-chart#1
Keep in mind that this is only mandatory PT. Can the gazelles get out there and do harder PT on their own in August? Of course, and they should so that they don't let their own fitness slide. Also keep in mind... this is now November. There's the entire rest of the year for units to continue to improve their run times. We (at least I) don't know how many overuse injuries are occurring... I would guess it is more now than 21 years ago when I was a fish.
I don't know what "No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving" means, though, and if the OP wants to elaborate on that, I'd be interested to hear it.
Other musings: sad about the water fight supposedly going away. A better (but admittedly harder) solution would be to emphasize safety and punish the individual idiots that are seen doing stupid stuff.
I'm also curious about what this means: MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit. How long do the MU trainers work with the fish vs unit cadre? Couldn't we send unit cadre to a "train the trainer" session so that they are trained on Corps standards for FOW basic skills and then the unit cadre can train the fish more?
Bottom line: it is too early to sound the general "Old Army has gone to hell" alarm after a few bullet points without elaboration or context. Some of this stuff is also "in the works" and not finalized yet.
If you want a contract with the Army program here you are expected to be near the max PFT score, not the bottom. Furthermore at Army PT it is regularly emphasized that you are expected to outperform your subordinates, because as an officer you're held to a higher standard. This lazy PT standard in the Corps will only harm the officers who commission from this institution and those that serve under them. Another problem with the lowering of standards by the Corps is that many students do not have the time to PT on their own, because their workload is significantly higher than what it used to be due to higher expectations academically and from other student organizations. From a leadership prospective this will hurt the Corps, because PT is the biggest time when cadets have the opportunity to develop their leadership (so they don't look stupid when they go to their units). Aside from all of this though, everyone has the absolutely capability of rising to a challenge or lowering to meet the standard set for them. It's the same in the Army and the Corps. If this low to non-existent standard becomes the norm, than this Corps is in serious danger of having no student leadership, just a bunch of college kids good at being told what to do.TexasAggieMike said:
-----------
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
. . . .
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
-----------
I am a '00 CT that went on to be an Army PA. I think we are jumping to conclusions about how bad the alleged proposed PT program is. I don't know how closely this mirrors the current PT program, but the idea looks to be to ease new cadets (and cadets returning from summer vacation that didn't PT) into running and minimize injury. We have seen the overall decline of the athletic ability of Army recruits... I'm sure the Corps faces the same thing. I've seen too many young men and women get broken off by overzealous sergeants in the Army... most cadet sergeants and officers are not any smarter than these sergeants when it comes to training.
It looks like cadets will start slow and short (which is what you'd want to do in any plan for new runners) but by November, cadets should be running with their units for distances of around 3-4 miles at an 8 minute pace. This is right at passing for 17-21 y/o males on the Army PFT and almost maxing for 17-21 y/o females.
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/army-fitness-requirements/army-pft-two-mile-run-score-chart#1
Keep in mind that this is only mandatory PT. Can the gazelles get out there and do harder PT on their own in August? Of course, and they should so that they don't let their own fitness slide. Also keep in mind... this is now November. There's the entire rest of the year for units to continue to improve their run times. We (at least I) don't know how many overuse injuries are occurring... I would guess it is more now than 21 years ago when I was a fish.
I don't know what "No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving" means, though, and if the OP wants to elaborate on that, I'd be interested to hear it.
Other musings: sad about the water fight supposedly going away. A better (but admittedly harder) solution would be to emphasize safety and punish the individual idiots that are seen doing stupid stuff.
I'm also curious about what this means: MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit. How long do the MU trainers work with the fish vs unit cadre? Couldn't we send unit cadre to a "train the trainer" session so that they are trained on Corps standards for FOW basic skills and then the unit cadre can train the fish more?
Bottom line: it is too early to sound the general "Old Army has gone to hell" alarm after a few bullet points without elaboration or context. Some of this stuff is also "in the works" and not finalized yet.
These are in fact finalized. The key leaders were given this in their brief and were not asked for any feedback or input. It was "here's what is happening, deal with it". That's how "leaders" are made now.
Alright, so here goes my .02:
FOW Updates
Introduction of Standard Corps Day into FOW schedule Dont see how this is possible with the amount of information to and training to get done
Academic Day and EST into the daily schedule
No training during EST No clue what est is
Personal Time nightly 30 mins isnt going to kill anyone, Hell you get that at basic training
No inventory fish PFT (total of 3 to 4 PT sessions) Didn't do an APFT during FOW except contract APFT. Also didn't do a single PT session FOW. Too much to do that week. They made up for it the rest of the school year though.
No Shopping Trips (no req for standardized room items) This one makes no sense, while a pain in the ass, standardization and attention to detail were major lessons fish year,
More Team Building and Leadership Dev exercises No problems with that
No Water Fight (MU Field Meet instead) Didnt have one in fall 2000 - 2004 while i was there. Sports Comp is good, builds unity and still gives them time to cut loose
Corps Run on Friday after Thursday night Airout Corps Runs are a boof but still good experience for first major run
Remaining Corps members return Friday prior to classes Only cadre trains FOW, didnt meet all upperclassman until later that week anyways
No Freshman Convocation on Sunday prior to classes No idea what the hell this is, so New Army?
Changes to Uniform Bag
Drop Black Sweater / Poncho
Return to Winter Uniform (Pink Trousers & Gabardine Shirt)
Reduction in number of Midnight shirts / Boot pants
Bring back AG 44 jacket!! Loved it as a fish, absoultely no brass, and as a head when i carried the awards flag from time to time, no Bs top underneath when I felt I could get away with it. (flag harness, over AG44, and Duncan meant no taking off Jacket) Also we only had one set of midnights so....its ok?
2017-2018 Updates
Weekly Schedule Changes
M/W/F Morning
Corps/ROTC/Special Unit PT Sessions
ROTC PT on Thursday if Corps Run Friday
T/TH Morning
Unit Instruction / Drill / Counseling / CR events
Afternoon Training
Alternative PT Session (total of 4 PT sessions / week)
LRC / O-Course / Stamina Course / other
Intramurals
Corps Values Training
OK so, on active duty you only PT 5 days a week (unless on your own) Sems like if your contract and Rudders you get 5 days a week. O-course is good, intramurals broke up the monotony of everything. We had drill everymorning fall semester, so some PT involved in that. Hated drills on the turf field. Only really remeber "Training" time to be on Mon, Tues, and Thurs Afternoons. Even Thurs was usually outfit Sports due to lead labs. Wednesday was marathon CQ. Friday might have had some training, but usually let go early to prep for Yell and eat and stuff. Spring semester, I think I remember everyone wanting their weekends so more or less the same schedule. Mornings in the Spring were more for Outfit PT sessions instead of lets smoke the fish.
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
Objective
Pass PFT and meet Weight Standards duh
Proudly wear uniform & Look sharp while marching ditto
Achieve Fish-level tasks
Earn Corps Brass
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
Corps Brass will be conducted solely on West Campus
Wed 22 Nov (Reading Day)
Corps movement to West Campus
Designated areas for PT sessions
Brass awarded at Corps formation
Return to Quad as a Corps
Nice progression of PT. Technically 9 min miles for 4 miles is Army Standard. All that is, is easing them into it. I didnt do anything in HS so running 7 min miles off the bat would have killed me and like 90% of the fish. As far as Corps Brass, there was no Corps Brass weekend prior to 2002. The GVA had a Corps Brass Weekend in 2002 and everyone including Qs had to earn and wear it, until they got rid of that trash and wore the respeced band lyre. We survived, everyone else survived. Its going to happen around the same time anyways, so what. The reading day before T-Giving is cool. thats what it basically was anyway. Also, to back track having supervision during training is good. If not youll have people going completely ape -**** and doig dumb stuff. Guaranteed.
2017-2018 Updates in the Works
MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit
Cadre and Returning Cadets must pass an open book exam of the Standard and PPG
Hallway & Greeting Procedures being revamped
Duncan Dining Procedures being revamped
Learning Objectives for each class being developed; must demonstrate proficiency to earn / maintain cadet rank/pos
Freshmen promoted to PFC / Sophomores to Sergeant for Spring semester if meet promotion criteria (in development)
White Belt privileges and excusals from EST being examined for cadets under a certain GPA (similar to Sophomore year)
Requiring some sort of training for your trainers is standard data. MU commanders having to interact with their fish isnt bad either. This whole promotion thing is wierd, but also technically as fish we were all CDT PVTs, at least my door card said that. If you earn a rank wear it. It wont change anything, and Im pretty sure youll still be fish Jones in March like you were in September. Even as Whitebelts we had privelages based on Grades. If you were on Sco - Pro, you didnt get a TV (not like you couldnt watch your buddies). I doubt Zips will be sprinting in the hallways or other stuff.
In conclusion, I didnt see how outfit identity will be stripped and the Corps will fall apart. To me, I see a commanders intent. Now how you fill in the blanks will make the experience. You can be lazy and ***** and moan and just take this as the gospel, or you can be creative and still give your fish and Outfit one hell of a year. That choice is on you. The days of beating the **** out of people are over. Hell, even on Active Duty smoking your joes is dying, but you know what. Joe can push, and do sprints, and mountain climbers all day. UCMJ his ass, and take pay, time, and rank and he'll toe the fu**ing line (for the most part and will at least work hard enough to not get busted down again). Seems like alot of emphasis is being placed on MU commanders and Senior Leaders. Good! Run a battalion the Corps as the most eperienced person there, then in a few years take a Platoon, where the roles are reversed and you are the cherry and your Joes and NCOs all have more time in combat than you do in the Army. I still dont know what EST is. Anyone help? For the most part, I like the changes. Lots of good things and training can still happen, if your creative enough to try. If your lazy and say **** it, well enjoy the ride down to the bottom. FWIW, fish year was way harder than BCT, did way more PT at A&M, but in hindsight, getting smoked just because we had two hours free was pretty ****ing stupid. Wed get smoked as Heads just before training the fish just to piss us off, What good is that? AsSenior Leaders in the Corps, this is still your program. Talk with the Commandant. He gets on here and says he is approachable, and I dont think he is the kind of man to be a liar. Everything isnt always black and white. I see lots of grey area to work with to make a quality program. I still want my children to be in the Corps of Cadets, things may change for the worse one day, but its not today.
FOW Updates
Introduction of Standard Corps Day into FOW schedule Dont see how this is possible with the amount of information to and training to get done
Academic Day and EST into the daily schedule
No training during EST No clue what est is
Personal Time nightly 30 mins isnt going to kill anyone, Hell you get that at basic training
No inventory fish PFT (total of 3 to 4 PT sessions) Didn't do an APFT during FOW except contract APFT. Also didn't do a single PT session FOW. Too much to do that week. They made up for it the rest of the school year though.
No Shopping Trips (no req for standardized room items) This one makes no sense, while a pain in the ass, standardization and attention to detail were major lessons fish year,
More Team Building and Leadership Dev exercises No problems with that
No Water Fight (MU Field Meet instead) Didnt have one in fall 2000 - 2004 while i was there. Sports Comp is good, builds unity and still gives them time to cut loose
Corps Run on Friday after Thursday night Airout Corps Runs are a boof but still good experience for first major run
Remaining Corps members return Friday prior to classes Only cadre trains FOW, didnt meet all upperclassman until later that week anyways
No Freshman Convocation on Sunday prior to classes No idea what the hell this is, so New Army?
Changes to Uniform Bag
Drop Black Sweater / Poncho
Return to Winter Uniform (Pink Trousers & Gabardine Shirt)
Reduction in number of Midnight shirts / Boot pants
Bring back AG 44 jacket!! Loved it as a fish, absoultely no brass, and as a head when i carried the awards flag from time to time, no Bs top underneath when I felt I could get away with it. (flag harness, over AG44, and Duncan meant no taking off Jacket) Also we only had one set of midnights so....its ok?
2017-2018 Updates
Weekly Schedule Changes
M/W/F Morning
Corps/ROTC/Special Unit PT Sessions
ROTC PT on Thursday if Corps Run Friday
T/TH Morning
Unit Instruction / Drill / Counseling / CR events
Afternoon Training
Alternative PT Session (total of 4 PT sessions / week)
LRC / O-Course / Stamina Course / other
Intramurals
Corps Values Training
OK so, on active duty you only PT 5 days a week (unless on your own) Sems like if your contract and Rudders you get 5 days a week. O-course is good, intramurals broke up the monotony of everything. We had drill everymorning fall semester, so some PT involved in that. Hated drills on the turf field. Only really remeber "Training" time to be on Mon, Tues, and Thurs Afternoons. Even Thurs was usually outfit Sports due to lead labs. Wednesday was marathon CQ. Friday might have had some training, but usually let go early to prep for Yell and eat and stuff. Spring semester, I think I remember everyone wanting their weekends so more or less the same schedule. Mornings in the Spring were more for Outfit PT sessions instead of lets smoke the fish.
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
Objective
Pass PFT and meet Weight Standards duh
Proudly wear uniform & Look sharp while marching ditto
Achieve Fish-level tasks
Earn Corps Brass
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
Corps Brass will be conducted solely on West Campus
Wed 22 Nov (Reading Day)
Corps movement to West Campus
Designated areas for PT sessions
Brass awarded at Corps formation
Return to Quad as a Corps
Nice progression of PT. Technically 9 min miles for 4 miles is Army Standard. All that is, is easing them into it. I didnt do anything in HS so running 7 min miles off the bat would have killed me and like 90% of the fish. As far as Corps Brass, there was no Corps Brass weekend prior to 2002. The GVA had a Corps Brass Weekend in 2002 and everyone including Qs had to earn and wear it, until they got rid of that trash and wore the respeced band lyre. We survived, everyone else survived. Its going to happen around the same time anyways, so what. The reading day before T-Giving is cool. thats what it basically was anyway. Also, to back track having supervision during training is good. If not youll have people going completely ape -**** and doig dumb stuff. Guaranteed.
2017-2018 Updates in the Works
MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit
Cadre and Returning Cadets must pass an open book exam of the Standard and PPG
Hallway & Greeting Procedures being revamped
Duncan Dining Procedures being revamped
Learning Objectives for each class being developed; must demonstrate proficiency to earn / maintain cadet rank/pos
Freshmen promoted to PFC / Sophomores to Sergeant for Spring semester if meet promotion criteria (in development)
White Belt privileges and excusals from EST being examined for cadets under a certain GPA (similar to Sophomore year)
Requiring some sort of training for your trainers is standard data. MU commanders having to interact with their fish isnt bad either. This whole promotion thing is wierd, but also technically as fish we were all CDT PVTs, at least my door card said that. If you earn a rank wear it. It wont change anything, and Im pretty sure youll still be fish Jones in March like you were in September. Even as Whitebelts we had privelages based on Grades. If you were on Sco - Pro, you didnt get a TV (not like you couldnt watch your buddies). I doubt Zips will be sprinting in the hallways or other stuff.
In conclusion, I didnt see how outfit identity will be stripped and the Corps will fall apart. To me, I see a commanders intent. Now how you fill in the blanks will make the experience. You can be lazy and ***** and moan and just take this as the gospel, or you can be creative and still give your fish and Outfit one hell of a year. That choice is on you. The days of beating the **** out of people are over. Hell, even on Active Duty smoking your joes is dying, but you know what. Joe can push, and do sprints, and mountain climbers all day. UCMJ his ass, and take pay, time, and rank and he'll toe the fu**ing line (for the most part and will at least work hard enough to not get busted down again). Seems like alot of emphasis is being placed on MU commanders and Senior Leaders. Good! Run a battalion the Corps as the most eperienced person there, then in a few years take a Platoon, where the roles are reversed and you are the cherry and your Joes and NCOs all have more time in combat than you do in the Army. I still dont know what EST is. Anyone help? For the most part, I like the changes. Lots of good things and training can still happen, if your creative enough to try. If your lazy and say **** it, well enjoy the ride down to the bottom. FWIW, fish year was way harder than BCT, did way more PT at A&M, but in hindsight, getting smoked just because we had two hours free was pretty ****ing stupid. Wed get smoked as Heads just before training the fish just to piss us off, What good is that? AsSenior Leaders in the Corps, this is still your program. Talk with the Commandant. He gets on here and says he is approachable, and I dont think he is the kind of man to be a liar. Everything isnt always black and white. I see lots of grey area to work with to make a quality program. I still want my children to be in the Corps of Cadets, things may change for the worse one day, but its not today.
If you want a contract with the Army program here you are expected to be near the max PFT score, not the bottom. Furthermore at Army PT it is regularly emphasized that you are expected to outperform your subordinates, because as an officer you're held to a higher standard. This lazy PT standard in the Corps will only harm the officers who commission from this institution and those that serve under them. Another problem with the lowering of standards by the Corps is that many students do not have the time to PT on their own, because their workload is significantly higher than what it used to be due to higher expectations academically and from other student organizations. From a leadership prospective this will hurt the Corps, because PT is the biggest time when cadets have the opportunity to develop their leadership (so they don't look stupid when they go to their units). Aside from all of this though, everyone has the absolutely capability of rising to a challenge or lowering to meet the standard set for them. It's the same in the Army and the Corps. If this low to non-existent standard becomes the norm, than this Corps is in serious danger of having no student leadership, just a bunch of college kids good at being told what to do.
PT on your own man. 5 days a week on Active Duty wont cut it. Personal responsibility bro.
There is only 3 weeks of outfit pt in the fall... how does that not remove it and in 4 weeks I can take some from a 9 min pace to a sub 8 but not on this plan. This completely cuts out the entire training leadership chain. If we want to create leaders, we might want to let them actually lead some things. Supervision is good, no arguements here, but that already happens. The goal is not to make people pass, it's to make them max the pft. Why is it that now all we ask is to be good enough? Why has the Aggie Corps accepted the idea of being good enough, just meet the bottom line. That's not my Corps and it isn't yours either. It's about challenging and bringing people to their best and showing what they are capable of even when they don't believe it. So no I will not accept the good enough mentality. You'll never see me accept it because that is a disservice to those who came before my time and those who come after. We recognize Medal of Honor recipients for going beyond the call of duty, not for being good enough.
CTO led PT for two months and MU led PT for another month leaves one month for Commanders to "fill in the blanks." Nobody would be getting on her complaining about being given restrictions, but still being allowed to lead. That happened this year and we dealt with it. Don't assume I am relying on hyperbole and an overreaction to what is going on. I was in the brief and listened to the explanation behind these changes. It is not what you are claiming them to be. Rather than listening to someone who has the knowledge and was told this information directly, you are instead choosing to ridicule my assumptions because somehow because you are older than me and not on campus, nor interacting with the people who were instructed to support this policy you know more. Standardization among major units leaves little room for unique traditions or practices across outfits. Just ask Sq-8 why they no longer have OATS or why I-1 no longer has ORD. Nobody would be getting on here and protesting the changes if:JABQ04 said:
Alright, so here goes my .02:
FOW Updates
Introduction of Standard Corps Day into FOW schedule Dont see how this is possible with the amount of information to and training to get done
Academic Day and EST into the daily schedule
No training during EST No clue what est is
Personal Time nightly 30 mins isnt going to kill anyone, Hell you get that at basic training
No inventory fish PFT (total of 3 to 4 PT sessions) Didnt do an APFT during FOW except contract APFT
No Shopping Trips (no req for standardized room items) This one makes no sense, while a pain in the ass, standardization and attention to detail were major lessons fish year,
More Team Building and Leadership Dev exercises No problems with that
No Water Fight (MU Field Meet instead) Didnt have one in fall 2000 - 2004 while i was there. Sports Comp is good, builds unity and still gives them time to cut loose
Corps Run on Friday after Thursday night Airout Corps Runs are a boof but still good experience for first major run
Remaining Corps members return Friday prior to classes Only cadre trains FOW, didnt meet all upperclassman until later that week anyways
No Freshman Convocation on Sunday prior to classes No idea what the hell this is, so New Army?
Changes to Uniform Bag
Drop Black Sweater / Poncho
Return to Winter Uniform (Pink Trousers & Gabardine Shirt)
Reduction in number of Midnight shirts / Boot pants
Bring back AG 44 jacket!! Loved it as a fish, absoultely no brass, and as a head when i carried the awards flag from time to time, no Bs top underneath when I felt I could get away with it. (flag harness, over AG44, and Duncan meant no taking off Jacket) Also we only had one set of midnights so....its ok?
2017-2018 Updates
Weekly Schedule Changes
M/W/F Morning
Corps/ROTC/Special Unit PT Sessions
ROTC PT on Thursday if Corps Run Friday
T/TH Morning
Unit Instruction / Drill / Counseling / CR events
Afternoon Training
Alternative PT Session (total of 4 PT sessions / week)
LRC / O-Course / Stamina Course / other
Intramurals
Corps Values Training
OK so, on active duty you only PT 5 days a week (unless on your own) Sems like if your contract and Rudders you get 5 days a week. O-course is good, intramurals broke up the monotony of everything. We had drill everymorning fall semester, so some PT involved in that. Hated drills on the turf field. Only really remeber "Training" time to be on Mon, Tues, and Thurs Afternoons. Even Thurs was usually outfit Sports due to lead labs. Wednesday was marathon CQ. Friday might have had some training, but usually let go early to prep for Yell and eat and stuff. Spring semester, I think I remember everyone wanting their weekends so more or less the same schedule. Mornings in the Spring were more for Outfit PT sessions instead of lets smoke the fish.
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
Objective
Pass PFT and meet Weight Standards duh
Proudly wear uniform & Look sharp while marching ditto
Achieve Fish-level tasks
Earn Corps Brass
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
Corps Brass will be conducted solely on West Campus
Wed 22 Nov (Reading Day)
Corps movement to West Campus
Designated areas for PT sessions
Brass awarded at Corps formation
Return to Quad as a Corps
Nice progression of PT. Technically 9 min miles for 4 miles is Army Standard. All that is, is easing them into it. I didnt do anything in HS so running 7 min miles off the bat would have killed me and like 90% of the fish. As far as Corps Brass, there was no Corps Brass weekend prior to 2002. The GVA had a Corps Brass Weekend in 2002 and everyone including Qs had to earn and wear it, until they got rid of that trash and wore the respeced band lyre. We survived, everyone else survived. Its going to happen around the same time anyways, so what. The reading day before T-Giving is cool. thats what it basically was anyway. Also, to back track having supervision during training is good. If not youll have people going completely ape -**** and doig dumb stuff. Guaranteed.
2017-2018 Updates in the Works
MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit
Cadre and Returning Cadets must pass an open book exam of the Standard and PPG
Hallway & Greeting Procedures being revamped
Duncan Dining Procedures being revamped
Learning Objectives for each class being developed; must demonstrate proficiency to earn / maintain cadet rank/pos
Freshmen promoted to PFC / Sophomores to Sergeant for Spring semester if meet promotion criteria (in development)
White Belt privileges and excusals from EST being examined for cadets under a certain GPA (similar to Sophomore year)
Requiring some sort of training for your trainers is standard data. MU commanders having to interact with their fish isnt bad either. This whole promotion thing is wierd, but also technically as fish we were all CDT PVTs, at least my door card said that. If you earn a rank wear it. It wont change anything, and Im pretty sure youll still be fish Jones in March like you were in September. Even as Whitebelts we had privelages based on Grades. If you were on Sco - Pro, you didnt get a TV (not like you couldnt watch your buddies). I doubt Zips will be sprinting in the hallways or other stuff.
In conclusion, I didnt see how outfit identity will be stripped and the Corps will fall apart. To me, I see a commanders intent. Now how you fill in the blanks will make the experience. You can be lazy and ***** and moan and just take this as the gospel, or you can be creative and still give your fish and Outfit one hell of a year. That choice is on you. The days of beating the **** out of people are over. Hell, even on Active Duty smoking your joes is dying, but you know what. Joe can push, and do sprints, and mountain climbers all day. UCMJ his ass, and take pay, time, and rank and he'll toe the fu**ing line (for the most part and will at least work hard enough to not get busted down again). Seems like alot of emphasis is being placed on MU commanders and Senior Leaders. Good! Run a battalion the Corps as the most eperienced person there, then in a few years take a Platoon, where the roles are reversed and you are the cherry and your Joes and NCOs all have more time in combat than you do in the Army. I still dont know what EST is. Anyone help? For the most part, I like the changes. Lots of good things and training can still happen, if your creative enough to try. If your lazy and say **** it, well enjoy the ride down to the bottom. FWIW, fish year was way harder than BCT, did way more PT at A&M, but in hindsight, getting smoked just because we had two hours free was pretty ****ing stupid. Wed get smoked as Heads just before training the fish just to piss us off, What good is that? AsSenior Leaders in the Corps, this is still your program. Talk with the Commandant. He gets on here and says he is approachable, and I dont think he is the kind of man to be a liar. Everything isnt always black and white. I see lots of grey area to work with to make a quality program. I still want my children to be in the Corps of Cadets, things may change for the worse one day, but its not today.
a) The ability to have a discussion with the Commandant without repercussion existed
b) It wasn't a fundamental change to the way things have been done for decades. We haven't protested the oversight and guidelines we have been under this year. Having contracts seperated from the outfits on all PT days leaves one day a week where everyone in the outfit can PT together and actually have the CO plan and lead activity.
A bulk of what you have pointed out with FOW is a noniussue. Same thing with the Changes to uniform. I just posted all of the changes rather than pick and choose. I decided not to edit the contents. Contracts and Rudders will not give 5 days a week. They PT the same days as outfits meaning they will not be with their outfits at all for morning activity. The other guidelines you have pointed out arent changes from this year. We are only allowed 4 PT sessions a week as is and can do no PT on either afternoon activity.
No one is complaining about the progressions standards as much as the fact it wont be outfit standards. Also those stanards only effect people who arent contracted and won't be separated from their outfits on the only morning PT sessions.
You aren't understanding the Corps Brass changes. It hasn't been this giant activity for the past two years. It has been more regulated and next year the proposal is to make it a Corps unity event. It isn't about becoming a member of your outfit, it is about being a member of the Corps. Something they teach in the SOMS classes for freshmen. If that doesn't directly attack outfit pride and culture than please explain to me what that looks like.
EST is the same as CQ was for y'all, except there isn't any real enforcement of it due to the SOD in charge being given no authority to enforce the standard.JABQ04 said:
Alright, so here goes my .02:
FOW Updates
Introduction of Standard Corps Day into FOW schedule Dont see how this is possible with the amount of information to and training to get done
Academic Day and EST into the daily schedule
No training during EST No clue what est is
Personal Time nightly 30 mins isnt going to kill anyone, Hell you get that at basic training
No inventory fish PFT (total of 3 to 4 PT sessions) Didn't do an APFT during FOW except contract APFT. Also didn't do a single PT session FOW. Too much to do that week. They made up for it the rest of the school year though.
No Shopping Trips (no req for standardized room items) This one makes no sense, while a pain in the ass, standardization and attention to detail were major lessons fish year,
More Team Building and Leadership Dev exercises No problems with that
No Water Fight (MU Field Meet instead) Didnt have one in fall 2000 - 2004 while i was there. Sports Comp is good, builds unity and still gives them time to cut loose
Corps Run on Friday after Thursday night Airout Corps Runs are a boof but still good experience for first major run
Remaining Corps members return Friday prior to classes Only cadre trains FOW, didnt meet all upperclassman until later that week anyways
No Freshman Convocation on Sunday prior to classes No idea what the hell this is, so New Army?
Changes to Uniform Bag
Drop Black Sweater / Poncho
Return to Winter Uniform (Pink Trousers & Gabardine Shirt)
Reduction in number of Midnight shirts / Boot pants
Bring back AG 44 jacket!! Loved it as a fish, absoultely no brass, and as a head when i carried the awards flag from time to time, no Bs top underneath when I felt I could get away with it. (flag harness, over AG44, and Duncan meant no taking off Jacket) Also we only had one set of midnights so....its ok?
2017-2018 Updates
Weekly Schedule Changes
M/W/F Morning
Corps/ROTC/Special Unit PT Sessions
ROTC PT on Thursday if Corps Run Friday
T/TH Morning
Unit Instruction / Drill / Counseling / CR events
Afternoon Training
Alternative PT Session (total of 4 PT sessions / week)
LRC / O-Course / Stamina Course / other
Intramurals
Corps Values Training
OK so, on active duty you only PT 5 days a week (unless on your own) Sems like if your contract and Rudders you get 5 days a week. O-course is good, intramurals broke up the monotony of everything. We had drill everymorning fall semester, so some PT involved in that. Hated drills on the turf field. Only really remeber "Training" time to be on Mon, Tues, and Thurs Afternoons. Even Thurs was usually outfit Sports due to lead labs. Wednesday was marathon CQ. Friday might have had some training, but usually let go early to prep for Yell and eat and stuff. Spring semester, I think I remember everyone wanting their weekends so more or less the same schedule. Mornings in the Spring were more for Outfit PT sessions instead of lets smoke the fish.
Standardized Training at the Major Unit level.
Objective
Pass PFT and meet Weight Standards duh
Proudly wear uniform & Look sharp while marching ditto
Achieve Fish-level tasks
Earn Corps Brass
Cadets trained at Major Unit level to conduct standardized training across the MU
CTOs will lead / supervise PT sessions in Aug / Sep
Max group runs < 2 miles at 8.5 to 9 min pace
MU trainers will lead / supervise PT sessions in Oct
Max group runs < 3 miles at 8.5 min pace
Unit led PT sessions in Nov (< 4 miles at 8 min pace)
No PT training sessions after Thanksgiving
Corps Brass will be conducted solely on West Campus
Wed 22 Nov (Reading Day)
Corps movement to West Campus
Designated areas for PT sessions
Brass awarded at Corps formation
Return to Quad as a Corps
Nice progression of PT. Technically 9 min miles for 4 miles is Army Standard. All that is, is easing them into it. I didnt do anything in HS so running 7 min miles off the bat would have killed me and like 90% of the fish. As far as Corps Brass, there was no Corps Brass weekend prior to 2002. The GVA had a Corps Brass Weekend in 2002 and everyone including Qs had to earn and wear it, until they got rid of that trash and wore the respeced band lyre. We survived, everyone else survived. Its going to happen around the same time anyways, so what. The reading day before T-Giving is cool. thats what it basically was anyway. Also, to back track having supervision during training is good. If not youll have people going completely ape -**** and doig dumb stuff. Guaranteed.
2017-2018 Updates in the Works
MU trainers conduct FOW Basic Skills training for all fish in the Major Unit
Cadre and Returning Cadets must pass an open book exam of the Standard and PPG
Hallway & Greeting Procedures being revamped
Duncan Dining Procedures being revamped
Learning Objectives for each class being developed; must demonstrate proficiency to earn / maintain cadet rank/pos
Freshmen promoted to PFC / Sophomores to Sergeant for Spring semester if meet promotion criteria (in development)
White Belt privileges and excusals from EST being examined for cadets under a certain GPA (similar to Sophomore year)
Requiring some sort of training for your trainers is standard data. MU commanders having to interact with their fish isnt bad either. This whole promotion thing is wierd, but also technically as fish we were all CDT PVTs, at least my door card said that. If you earn a rank wear it. It wont change anything, and Im pretty sure youll still be fish Jones in March like you were in September. Even as Whitebelts we had privelages based on Grades. If you were on Sco - Pro, you didnt get a TV (not like you couldnt watch your buddies). I doubt Zips will be sprinting in the hallways or other stuff.
In conclusion, I didnt see how outfit identity will be stripped and the Corps will fall apart. To me, I see a commanders intent. Now how you fill in the blanks will make the experience. You can be lazy and ***** and moan and just take this as the gospel, or you can be creative and still give your fish and Outfit one hell of a year. That choice is on you. The days of beating the **** out of people are over. Hell, even on Active Duty smoking your joes is dying, but you know what. Joe can push, and do sprints, and mountain climbers all day. UCMJ his ass, and take pay, time, and rank and he'll toe the fu**ing line (for the most part and will at least work hard enough to not get busted down again). Seems like alot of emphasis is being placed on MU commanders and Senior Leaders. Good! Run a battalion the Corps as the most eperienced person there, then in a few years take a Platoon, where the roles are reversed and you are the cherry and your Joes and NCOs all have more time in combat than you do in the Army. I still dont know what EST is. Anyone help? For the most part, I like the changes. Lots of good things and training can still happen, if your creative enough to try. If your lazy and say **** it, well enjoy the ride down to the bottom. FWIW, fish year was way harder than BCT, did way more PT at A&M, but in hindsight, getting smoked just because we had two hours free was pretty ****ing stupid. Wed get smoked as Heads just before training the fish just to piss us off, What good is that? AsSenior Leaders in the Corps, this is still your program. Talk with the Commandant. He gets on here and says he is approachable, and I dont think he is the kind of man to be a liar. Everything isnt always black and white. I see lots of grey area to work with to make a quality program. I still want my children to be in the Corps of Cadets, things may change for the worse one day, but its not today.
As far as the PT goes, there is only PT on M, W, F in the mornings and no PT is allowed at afternoon activity. It is also completely different now than it was even five years ago There is no smoking period of anyone for any reason, only unit PT is allowed. to enforce this someone from staff is constantly observing the unit. Additionally all PT must follow a training plan, which must be followed exactly or PT is immediately canceled by the observer. The plan must be approved by staff in order for it to happen (if it doesn't than your not allowed to do anything at all). If the no smoking policy is broken and the person smoked reports it than the offender is just about automatically kicked out and a hazing charge is usually put on your transcript for good measure. Because of this there isn't even really good bull smoking of upper classmen. This leaves the only way to enforce discipline through rams, which only have a limited effect. If your outfit leadership determines that a cadet is behaving improperly or even dangerously it is a multi-month process of documenting infractions to even get in front of a CPRB. and even that doesn't guarantee expulsion.
Emblematic of this is that Cokes advice was taken down from the Trigon and replaced with the marketing slogan "We make leaders" not sure how that is going to be accomplished without giving people a chance to lead though
All of this has been going on for years, so it isn't new to the cadets here. What is new is that the last vestiges of outfits are being rapidly destroyed, and replace with a non-existent standard, so that the Corps can meet its size goal. Unfortunately its been forgotten that size isn't what matters, quality is
A member of staff needing to be with each outfit is nothing new. Having to follow your PT plan shouldn't be anything new, although is probably is since some outfits love to blow it off. My favorite was when an outfit would have a great workout scheduled on their PT plan and then if the person that planned it had to miss activity for whatever reason, some random upperclassmen would decide to just do some random workout which usually ended up being a waste of everyone's time. PT plans/ progression based training plans are a good thing if executed correctly.
As far as the hazing thing goes, where exactly does 'hazing' get put on your transcript? Mine seems to focus on my classes and grades, no spot for my Corps record on there.
Bummer about Honor... The guiding star getting taken off the trigon. I never was a fan of the "we make leaders" catchphrase.
Removal of cadets does always seem to be a sketchy process. Seemingly good cadets that screw up sometimes get the boot quickly, while a bag that never shows up to anything but also doesn't cause any crazy amounts of trouble can be really hard to remove.
Whether or not I agree with the aforementioned changes, I find it very hard to believe that General Ramirez won't take feedback from the key leadership or any cadets for that matter. When I was a cadet, he made himself available. There were multiple occasions where I aired disagreements to him and he was willing to discuss the issues. Did that change things? Not always, but he did listen.
If someone says they don't have time to PT on their own, they need to get better at time management.
I get it- a bunch of the posters on this thread are pissed off cadets. And you may have a right to be pissed. But a lot of your arguments are weak and make you look uninformed and uneducated. If you are really that upset, man up and go speak to the Commandant himself. Or go ask the Army ROTC cadre what they think about the changes and their correlation to the "real" Army since you seem really concerned about that.
Passion is better than indifference though, I'll give you that.
As far as the hazing thing goes, where exactly does 'hazing' get put on your transcript? Mine seems to focus on my classes and grades, no spot for my Corps record on there.
Bummer about Honor... The guiding star getting taken off the trigon. I never was a fan of the "we make leaders" catchphrase.
Removal of cadets does always seem to be a sketchy process. Seemingly good cadets that screw up sometimes get the boot quickly, while a bag that never shows up to anything but also doesn't cause any crazy amounts of trouble can be really hard to remove.
Whether or not I agree with the aforementioned changes, I find it very hard to believe that General Ramirez won't take feedback from the key leadership or any cadets for that matter. When I was a cadet, he made himself available. There were multiple occasions where I aired disagreements to him and he was willing to discuss the issues. Did that change things? Not always, but he did listen.
If someone says they don't have time to PT on their own, they need to get better at time management.
I get it- a bunch of the posters on this thread are pissed off cadets. And you may have a right to be pissed. But a lot of your arguments are weak and make you look uninformed and uneducated. If you are really that upset, man up and go speak to the Commandant himself. Or go ask the Army ROTC cadre what they think about the changes and their correlation to the "real" Army since you seem really concerned about that.
Passion is better than indifference though, I'll give you that.
The commandant has continued to lower the standard for cadets every year. Every year we are stripped of training opportunities and limited to what we can do. The corps used to be a challenge. It used to be something cadets were proud of and wanted to do because it made them better and grow as a leader. Cadets barely have the opportunity to lead anymore and I personally am not proud to be in the corps. When I walk around campus I see more overweight cadets than I do fit ones. Cadets bag in every day due to the lack of accountability and I understand that is a reflection of cadet leadership but that attitude is coddled and accepted by the low standards across the board being implemented by higher up. Rather than being proud of my organization I see it as something I am forced to do because I would like to go into the military. I know many outstanding cadets who have quit due to the lack of discipline or rigor within the corps. I know many more who say they will quit if these policy changes are implemented. If the commandant demanded excellence he would get excellence. Instead he lowers the standard.
Regardless of what you think about the new policies, if the majority of cadets are not proud to be cadets and do not respect the commandant there must be something fundamentally wrong with his leadership. And if you claim the commandant is approachable and listens why are there so many cadets on here protesting right now?
The corps is hemorrhaging its most outstanding cadets by accommodating low standards.
The corps is hemorrhaging its most outstanding cadets by accommodating low standards.
"Nothing new" is relative. For most of us, this is completely new. Back in the day - No staff oversight needed. No PT plan needed. Punitive PT permitted. Company-level leadership providedTrident15 said:
A member of staff needing to be with each outfit is nothing new. Having to follow your PT plan shouldn't be anything new, although is probably is since some outfits love to blow it off.
Fish would be called into the hall to push, or do other PT, for punitive PT on a moments notice, particularly between morning chow and the beginning of the academic day, or before/after evening chow (outside of Call to Quarters time). Similarly, fish could expect to be in the leaning rest at formation in response to a failure of the fish to perform as a unified class (see fish matches).
Pissheads could likewise be called into the hallway, along, if the fish were underperforming and made to push. Woe be unto the fish who heard, much less saw, such punishment.
The plan was entrusted to the leaders within each outfit, constrained by rules of reason:
1) PT permitted so long as did not cross into class time, quiet time or CQ.
2) PT limited to proscribed exercises
3) PT limited to reasonable number of exercises.
Leaders in the outfit therefore had to exercise leadership - leadership in calling for the punishment, leadership in exercising the punishment. The whole class implementing the punitive PT would be present to ensure the class was both punished and not subjected to harm.
93Spur said:"Nothing new" is relative. For most of us, this is completely new. Back in the day - No staff oversight needed. No PT plan needed. Punitive PT permitted. Company-level leadership providedTrident15 said:
A member of staff needing to be with each outfit is nothing new. Having to follow your PT plan shouldn't be anything new, although is probably is since some outfits love to blow it off.
Fish would be called into the hall to push, or do other PT, for punitive PT on a moments notice, particularly between morning chow and the beginning of the academic day, or before/after evening chow (outside of Call to Quarters time). Similarly, fish could expect to be in the leaning rest at formation in response to a failure of the fish to perform as a unified class (see fish matches).
Pissheads could likewise be called into the hallway, along, if the fish were underperforming and made to push. Woe be unto the fish who heard, much less saw, such punishment.
The plan was entrusted to the leaders within each outfit, constrained by rules of reason:
1) PT permitted so long as did not cross into class time, quiet time or CQ.
2) PT limited to proscribed exercises
3) PT limited to reasonable number of exercises.
Leaders in the outfit therefore had to exercise leadership - leadership in calling for the punishment, leadership in exercising the punishment. The whole class implementing the punitive PT would be present to ensure the class was both punished and not subjected to harm.
It's nothing new to the current cadets, who are the ones that posted and complained about it originally. I get all of your points though, the trust in the outfit level leadership seems to be all but gone. Even my fish year which wasn't that long ago, I could expect to pay for my screw ups with PT. One day fish year I greeted a female upperclassmen as a sir and my team leader happened to be in the hallway. I spent all day wondering when he would come by. It ended up happening after CQ/ before lights out and I pushed for what felt like forever. No harm was done and I never made that mistake again. If you got caught doing that now as a team leader, you would guarantee yourself hazing charges and possible suspension/maybe even worse.
JKnight said:
Regardless of what you think about the new policies, if the majority of cadets are not proud to be cadets and do not respect the commandant there must be something fundamentally wrong with his leadership. And if you claim the commandant is approachable and listens why are there so many cadets on here protesting right now?
The corps is hemorrhaging its most outstanding cadets by accommodating low standards.
Because it's easier to make an anonymous account than it is to go speak to someone in person. You don't have to put your name on your complaints on here.
If the Corps has a morale problem, that ultimately falls on the leader. No argument there, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.
It is not the staff oversight or progression which is the problem here. The problem is that they are skipping over the cadet part. The oversight will be from CTO's. The PT standards implemented are abhorrent. See the comment above pointing out it will be slower than 7th Grade girls cross country. As for the issue about cadet input, if he cared wouldn't he ask? Why is it that the plan for the year is given to us not created by us? If this is a leadership experience, then why not allow people to lead at every level? When a person walks in and tells you that this is what will happen next year, and the "key leaders" are handpicked so they can be manipulated, then how can we stop it. There was no, "what do you think is a solution to attrition problems and poor PT performance", it was this is what we are doing, shut up and swallow the pill or we'll find someone else who will. Also I'd like to point out that these cadets don't want to fight the commandant, they want a platform for once to voice opinions without repercussion. Furthermore, we want to change back a little, nothing extreme, just a little, and changing a commandant will do nothing for that. This is against the set of ideas that being good enough is all you have to be. Name a single leader or successful person and tell me where they settled for being good enough. That is an individual value but shouldn't we at least try to foster that?
I've been long gone from Aggieland and the Corps, and I know there have been many changes since I left, many of which I thought were detrimental to the Corps. I don't know if I'm sad or mad after reading this thread.
Watchlisting, will add comments when I have more time. Just got sent this by a buddy.
I understand that every new year has its changes whether we like them or not, but there is at least one thing I can think of off the top of my head that has stayed a constant since 1876. And that is that fish year has always been the entirety of your freshman year at A&M.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that fish year as we all know it, will now be a thing of the past.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that fish year as we all know it, will now be a thing of the past.
First, I will say sorry if I came across as pretentions and condescending as that was never my intention. You all are right in the fact that I did not attend these briefings nor am I a member of the Corps. With that out of the way, I will fall back on my own experiences, both Corps and US Army, to maybe help the situation.
It seems to me that the biggest complaints are lack of outfit identity and PT/Training time.
Nothing I've read scream that outfit identities are being pushed aside. Seems to me that Standardization is being pressed across the board is good. If you haven't heard yet, there are a couple of sayings from big Army that can apply here; "There is only one standard" and "You can add to, but not take away from the standard" So, you get your guidance from higher, incorporate their goals and what they want as their end state, and then you back fill with what you want to cover. The Corps Brass standards all seem to be the same as they have been in years past, now you add your outfit twist to it. I see where y'all are coming from when you say this frees up and makes it easier to move folks across outfits, but individuals don't have to accept being CO of an outfit if they don't want to. Typically when a person throws their hat into that ring, they want the job. Sometimes they just see it as one place is as good as the next. There are ways to add you own outfit uniqueness to everything you do, with out killing your identify as well as meeting the commanders intent.
As far as PT, the OP stated its CTO led or supervised. That leaves room open for interpretation. I imagine in the beginning of the year they will be more hands on the show proper movements and for safety sakes. I don't think that they will make the plan every single day and ask for no input from current leaders. Also as leaders, be out their with your Cadets, you supervise. Make them perform exercises correctly. Offer guidance. have your own plans ready for the CTO. build a rapport with the CTO that shows your serious about physical fitness and not just having fish do pushups two hours everyday, because that just sucks. The same with Major Unit Trainers.
I understand that this info was a huge shock to all of you. Trust me, in life (military and civilian) your boss will come up with some **** you have no idea where they get it from. Talk with them openly using tact, and express your concerns. The bottom line though, is if they don't yield then your hand is forced.
One thing I really did like added was about developmental counseling's. These fish will want to be COs, Guidon Bearers, PLs one day. Now I'm not saying be all buddy buddy with them, but when the time comes you can develop their Corps careers and help shape their futures. When I was PFC just arrived to my first battalion at Fort Lewis, I never thought that being a SSG would have me being a marriage counselor, financial counselor, career counselor, love advisor, babysitter, and disciplinarian to other grown men. Its your task to make your subordinates better than you so they can one day lead this organization.
I also feel that since this whole drama is less than 48 hours old it got blasted out as a knee jerk reaction when in truth no one has seriously talked about it yet and started working issues out. MU COs. Minor Unit COs, need to hash out stuff, COs need to get involved, and then outfit level stuff needs to be planned. Get involved with your MU staffs, and your CTOs. For those of you contracts, this will be damn good practice for when you as a young LT have to plan a range or some other training event. God have mercy if its big enough BDE wants to get their hands on it.
Hope this helps. Good Luck to all of you
It seems to me that the biggest complaints are lack of outfit identity and PT/Training time.
Nothing I've read scream that outfit identities are being pushed aside. Seems to me that Standardization is being pressed across the board is good. If you haven't heard yet, there are a couple of sayings from big Army that can apply here; "There is only one standard" and "You can add to, but not take away from the standard" So, you get your guidance from higher, incorporate their goals and what they want as their end state, and then you back fill with what you want to cover. The Corps Brass standards all seem to be the same as they have been in years past, now you add your outfit twist to it. I see where y'all are coming from when you say this frees up and makes it easier to move folks across outfits, but individuals don't have to accept being CO of an outfit if they don't want to. Typically when a person throws their hat into that ring, they want the job. Sometimes they just see it as one place is as good as the next. There are ways to add you own outfit uniqueness to everything you do, with out killing your identify as well as meeting the commanders intent.
As far as PT, the OP stated its CTO led or supervised. That leaves room open for interpretation. I imagine in the beginning of the year they will be more hands on the show proper movements and for safety sakes. I don't think that they will make the plan every single day and ask for no input from current leaders. Also as leaders, be out their with your Cadets, you supervise. Make them perform exercises correctly. Offer guidance. have your own plans ready for the CTO. build a rapport with the CTO that shows your serious about physical fitness and not just having fish do pushups two hours everyday, because that just sucks. The same with Major Unit Trainers.
I understand that this info was a huge shock to all of you. Trust me, in life (military and civilian) your boss will come up with some **** you have no idea where they get it from. Talk with them openly using tact, and express your concerns. The bottom line though, is if they don't yield then your hand is forced.
One thing I really did like added was about developmental counseling's. These fish will want to be COs, Guidon Bearers, PLs one day. Now I'm not saying be all buddy buddy with them, but when the time comes you can develop their Corps careers and help shape their futures. When I was PFC just arrived to my first battalion at Fort Lewis, I never thought that being a SSG would have me being a marriage counselor, financial counselor, career counselor, love advisor, babysitter, and disciplinarian to other grown men. Its your task to make your subordinates better than you so they can one day lead this organization.
I also feel that since this whole drama is less than 48 hours old it got blasted out as a knee jerk reaction when in truth no one has seriously talked about it yet and started working issues out. MU COs. Minor Unit COs, need to hash out stuff, COs need to get involved, and then outfit level stuff needs to be planned. Get involved with your MU staffs, and your CTOs. For those of you contracts, this will be damn good practice for when you as a young LT have to plan a range or some other training event. God have mercy if its big enough BDE wants to get their hands on it.
Hope this helps. Good Luck to all of you
I can't imagine getting promoted by the tu game as a fish.... I was a dirty fish until the week before Spring finals. How are these kids supposed to find out what they are made of?
My fish year was the hardest and best thing that ever happened to me... There is very little life can throw at me tougher than my experience as a fish. I wouldn't trade a minute of any of it.
My fish year was the hardest and best thing that ever happened to me... There is very little life can throw at me tougher than my experience as a fish. I wouldn't trade a minute of any of it.
JABQ04 said:
First, I will say sorry if I came across as pretentions and condescending as that was never my intention. You all are right in the fact that I did not attend these briefings nor am I a member of the Corps. With that out of the way, I will fall back on my own experiences, both Corps and US Army, to maybe help the situation.
It seems to me that the biggest complaints are lack of outfit identity and PT/Training time.
Nothing I've read scream that outfit identities are being pushed aside. Seems to me that Standardization is being pressed across the board is good. If you haven't heard yet, there are a couple of sayings from big Army that can apply here; "There is only one standard" and "You can add to, but not take away from the standard" So, you get your guidance from higher, incorporate their goals and what they want as their end state, and then you back fill with what you want to cover. The Corps Brass standards all seem to be the same as they have been in years past, now you add your outfit twist to it. I see where y'all are coming from when you say this frees up and makes it easier to move folks across outfits, but individuals don't have to accept being CO of an outfit if they don't want to. Typically when a person throws their hat into that ring, they want the job. Sometimes they just see it as one place is as good as the next. There are ways to add you own outfit uniqueness to everything you do, with out killing your identify as well as meeting the commanders intent.
As far as PT, the OP stated its CTO led or supervised. That leaves room open for interpretation. I imagine in the beginning of the year they will be more hands on the show proper movements and for safety sakes. I don't think that they will make the plan every single day and ask for no input from current leaders. Also as leaders, be out their with your Cadets, you supervise. Make them perform exercises correctly. Offer guidance. have your own plans ready for the CTO. build a rapport with the CTO that shows your serious about physical fitness and not just having fish do pushups two hours everyday, because that just sucks. The same with Major Unit Trainers.
I understand that this info was a huge shock to all of you. Trust me, in life (military and civilian) your boss will come up with some **** you have no idea where they get it from. Talk with them openly using tact, and express your concerns. The bottom line though, is if they don't yield then your hand is forced.
One thing I really did like added was about developmental counseling's. These fish will want to be COs, Guidon Bearers, PLs one day. Now I'm not saying be all buddy buddy with them, but when the time comes you can develop their Corps careers and help shape their futures. When I was PFC just arrived to my first battalion at Fort Lewis, I never thought that being a SSG would have me being a marriage counselor, financial counselor, career counselor, love advisor, babysitter, and disciplinarian to other grown men. Its your task to make your subordinates better than you so they can one day lead this organization.
I also feel that since this whole drama is less than 48 hours old it got blasted out as a knee jerk reaction when in truth no one has seriously talked about it yet and started working issues out. MU COs. Minor Unit COs, need to hash out stuff, COs need to get involved, and then outfit level stuff needs to be planned. Get involved with your MU staffs, and your CTOs. For those of you contracts, this will be damn good practice for when you as a young LT have to plan a range or some other training event. God have mercy if its big enough BDE wants to get their hands on it.
Hope this helps. Good Luck to all of you
I would agree that not all of these are bad. Counselings were a welcomed change in the past two years already. The problem is the changes being handed down with no prior warning or talks. Key leaders are now not even given an opportunity to add input. That is an issue that must be addressed. Cadets have no platform. The average cadet is incapable of voicing an opinion without fear of serious retaliation.
How is it not true? Speaking as someone with several high school buddies who are currently attending VMI and Virginia Tech corps our Outfit culture is very different to that of theirs. I'm not questioning their ability to make leaders, I have enourmous amounts of respect for them, I'm pointing out that they do not have the same kind of outfit culture as we do. That is what makes us different, and instead of conforming to them we should focus on what we do differently.
jd.sully5221 said:
How is it not true? Speaking as someone with several high school buddies who are currently attending VMI and Virginia Tech corps our Outfit culture is very different to that of theirs. I'm not questioning their ability to make leaders, I have enourmous amounts of respect for them, I'm pointing out that they do not have the same kind of outfit culture as we do. That is what makes us different, and instead of conforming to them we should focus on what we do differently.
Also Virginia Tech only pts with their ROTC units. Should have clarified that originally.
Man I really wish I could give a shet, but honestly I can't. The corps, as a fish was a great experience for me. It was the year before G.Ram came in and we truly got to experience awesome stuff.
Should have been General Betty as the commandant. I still blame that damn committee who chose G.Ram.
Be happy with what you got out of your experience. It sucks those coming into the corps now wont have a similar one.
Don't give a dime or an ounce of support to the Ramirez and his band of cronies. Hope to hell that they end up leaving and we can get a better leader.
Should have been General Betty as the commandant. I still blame that damn committee who chose G.Ram.
Be happy with what you got out of your experience. It sucks those coming into the corps now wont have a similar one.
Don't give a dime or an ounce of support to the Ramirez and his band of cronies. Hope to hell that they end up leaving and we can get a better leader.
https://www.cadetruncorps.com
Kudos to whoever crafted the letter and created the website. The letter seems to express the concerns in a much more even keeled and calm way. Plus, that's a good looking website. I'll reserve judgement on the changes for now, but I applaud the cadets for caring so much.
Kudos to whoever crafted the letter and created the website. The letter seems to express the concerns in a much more even keeled and calm way. Plus, that's a good looking website. I'll reserve judgement on the changes for now, but I applaud the cadets for caring so much.
To reach the right people, this link needs to be posted on the Corps Association website. Former governor/cadet Perry might well be an influential ally, as well.Trident15 said:
https://www.cadetruncorps.com
Kudos to whoever crafted the letter and created the website. The letter seems to express the concerns in a much more even keeled and calm way. Plus, that's a good looking website. I'll reserve judgement on the changes for now, but I applaud the cadets for caring so much.
I'm just here waiting for the Commandant to show up. I hope you first time Texags nuts are aware he monitors this page.
For the record, this has been throughly entertaining
For the record, this has been throughly entertaining
It's funny, I'm old enough now to have seen 4 or 5 Commandants. And there have been a laundry list of complaints about every one of them. Although I don't remember too many personal complaints about the USMC one - MG Hopgood. Of course, I didn't know anybody in the Corps during his era and we didn't have the Social Media capabilities that we have today.snowmnag970 said:
Man I really wish I could give a shet, but honestly I can't. The corps, as a fish was a great experience for me. It was the year before G.Ram came in and we truly got to experience awesome stuff.
Should have been General Betty as the commandant. I still blame that damn committee who chose G.Ram.
Be happy with what you got out of your experience. It sucks those coming into the corps now wont have a similar one.
Don't give a dime or an ounce of support to the Ramirez and his band of cronies. Hope to hell that they end up leaving and we can get a better leader.
In the 11 years I've been on TexAgs, I've seen a long list of complaints about LTG Van Alstyne and in my day (when a 2400 baud modem was big time), we certainly had a long list of complaints about MG Darling. My point here is that changing out the Commandant for a "better leader" will only produce the next round of complaints about the changes the Commandant is making to the Corps.
And here's some food for thought, what if... Texas A&M had a Commandant who wasn't a former student? Given the administration changes we've seen at A&M in recent years, nothing would surprise me.
I've met BG Ramirez on multiple occasions and I assure you he has nothing but love for Texas A&M and the Corps of Cadets.
One thing you said that I do agree with completely is this: Be happy with what you got out of your experience. It sucks those coming into the corps now wont have a similar one.
My experience was unique for sure. But, frankly, I wouldn't want today's cadets to go through what me and my buddies went through. So much of it was stupid and pointless.
However, of the 28 guys and 2 gals who hit the wall on the 4th Floor of Dorm 11 in the Fall of '88, the 13 guys who made it to Final Review 1989 have a tolerance for adversity and a bond much thicker than blood. And the 12 guys who graduated within 4-7 years are still pretty tight 25 years later. My only regret is that there weren't more of us who survived the process. My class was the last Aggie Band class with no females and today's band is full of females anyway so all the hardassery to "get the *****es out of the Band" was for naught. Can you imagine how few cadets we'd have today if we still operated like it was 1988?
Wow, way to kill the Corps Spirit. Why are we making this like the Army? This is a leadership experience and a gut check; not a pre-Military kumbaya camp. I am a better person and leader in the military today because I got my ass kicked on a daily basis by all of the challenging events that were set before me. I love my buddies, because we had a shared hardship. Although, we didn't run 4 miles in 8 minutes. We usually ran until we puked and the speed and distance was whatever was conducive to that. Now I max every PT test with ease.
Please stop taking the Army mold and applying it here. Everyone (to include our own soldiers) think our army is soft now anyway.
Please stop taking the Army mold and applying it here. Everyone (to include our own soldiers) think our army is soft now anyway.
Wildman15 said:
I'm just here waiting for the Commandant to show up. I hope you first time Texags nuts are aware he monitors this page.
For the record, this has been throughly entertaining
If anything comes of their posts on this thread it literally proves their point.
CharlieBrown17 said:Wildman15 said:
I'm just here waiting for the Commandant to show up. I hope you first time Texags nuts are aware he monitors this page.
For the record, this has been throughly entertaining
If anything comes of their posts on this thread it literally proves their point.
I was hoping you would stop by. And you're exactly right
Virginia Tech was founded in 1872. I said Civil War erajd.sully5221 said:
How is it not true? Speaking as someone with several high school buddies who are currently attending VMI and Virginia Tech corps our Outfit culture is very different to that of theirs. I'm not questioning their ability to make leaders, I have enourmous amounts of respect for them, I'm pointing out that they do not have the same kind of outfit culture as we do. That is what makes us different, and instead of conforming to them we should focus on what we do differently.
As I explained on the thread where folks were complaining about which outfits got females and which got to remain all male, VMI does have the same concept that Texas A&M has about individual cadet companies. The difference is that VMI's companies are much larger. So instead of having 15-30 fish in one company, they might have 50-60 rats in one company.
And yes, they still have outfit pride and different outfit uniqueness's just like Texas A&M. What they don't have is this constant stream of outfits getting disbanded and then years later re-instated. They don't have a Boozin' B-2 but then again, neither do we.
In the females in units thread, I also raised the question about, would you rather have 40+ cadet units like A&M where a significant number of cadets get a crack at leadership roles or, would you rather have 9 cadet units where only a handful of cadets get picked for unit leadership. I think there's more opportunity in the A&M system but there's also more risk.
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