The dead silence following the big Duncan powwow is interesting. I didn't think the entire Corps could be so effectively shut down........

In order to grow as a leadership lab, there needs to be a much greater responsibility placed on cadets to make their own decisions. I don't think anyone (both current and former cadets) are asking for the Commandant's Staff to completely remove themselves, but I do believe decision-making capabilities by cadets are being heavily restricted which creates an environment to simply follow the status quo with zero fostering of innovation.

74OA said:

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The dead silence following the big Duncan powwow is interesting. I didn't think the entire Corps could be so effectively shut down........

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This thread was a lot more fun 2 weeks ago when the allegations were that the Commandant was intentionally causing the sky to fall. So... did it fall? Or did all the disgruntled cadets go Kyler Murray and transfer?

The past nine pages of commentary contributed by a broad sampling of good Ags who love the corps and benefited immensely from having lived the four-year experience (myself included) clearly reflects a negative consensus regarding the announced policy changes. The changes appear to continue a deterioration of the corps framework we embraced while members and have supported as former students.

I am decades removed from living the dream on the quad, and it is painful to accept the seemingly obvious conclusion that such a loud chorus of criticism and anger from multiple, credible sources indicates there is substantial merit to the complaints. I know about the difficulty associated with treating a powerful, systemic ailment, and it appears to me that the Corps of Cadets is a patient in decline.

I am very disappointed that the Commandant has not promptly addressed the concerns raised here. I perceive his silence as troubling and atypical of his usually engaging demeanor. Moreover, I am especially troubled by both the candid insights provided by numerous current cadets and that they feel they would be putting themselves at considerable risk by openly expressing their opinions to the Commandant.

The content of this thread is the last thing I expected and wanted to find during one of my infrequent visits to the Military board.

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If your son went through it recently then it was not student led. I don't think it should be student led because things that have no place on a major universities campus would still go on. i.e. axe handling, fish saunas, quadding, Anniversary of the battle of San Jacinto (Mexican cadets get quaded), chow privileges..... those have no place in leadership labs. The Military is not a place for the good ole boys

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18-22 year olds make stupid decisions and learn from them. They will continue to make stupid decisions even while being micro-managed by the Trigon. All those things you listed were eventually removed even while it was student led. Graduated in 2004 and never saw quadding once. Axe handling was in its final years and was done quietly off campus as a pass down item in my outfit.

What are you referencing with chow privileges? That fish get the main course and no desert? That they have to eat like fish?

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Did they block access to Texags on the quad or something? Even the cadetruncorps.com website hasn't had an update in a while.

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Exactly! WTF?! Cadets throw up the bat signal, then disappear.

CT'97 said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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It's easy to say that when reading a forum and not hearing it from the horse's mouth. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Given the significant amount of changes over the past few years I would take what they have to say seriously.

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How can you take it seriously? This is no different than the argument that moving from tents into a dorm in 1905 was going to ruin the Corps.

I see an increase in meaningful leadership positions. It brings the major units back into relevance and will standardize the fish experience. Something that will bring a higher across the board performance level by the Corps than leaving training objectives up to individuals at the company level. Every other SMC, including the academies, in the country does it this way and they all manage to have very unique and individualized company level units with traditions and personality.

In the army as a company commander you are told to achieve specific training requirements and told what the standards are. Yet every company level organization I was involved with had an individual Esprit de Corps despite everyone having to accomplish the same tasks to the same standard.

FInally, and ultimately the only important statement. The Commandant was hired to bring his vision of a successful Corps of Cadets and to put his plan in place to accomplish that. As a good officer I expect he has evaluation processes in place and that success or failure of that plan will be evaluated and the plan will be adjusted accordingly.

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You are missing a fundamental point. The Corps is not there to train major unit leadership. It is there to train people to take the next leadership step, primarily in the military. That is platoon command or equivalent. The commandant's ideas here seem to lose sight of that goal. He is giving up true unit level leadership experience opportunities in exchange for uniformity and control.

When you were a platoon leader, was your Brigade responsible for your platoon's PT schedule? Staff's are just that, staffs. Yes, major units can and should have a roll in shaping training goals and setting standards, but it should be up to the company to implement it. In fact, if you want to base the corps off the military model, he has this completely backwards. An outfit has to learn to effectively train together before you can move on to Battalion level training. Once you can function as a battalion, you can then train to function as a major unit, so on and so on. There is a reason the military starts at individual tasks and trains its way up from there. This plan skips several key steps in that training model and robs cadets of good training/learning opportunities.

And why did he move the corps to numerous, smaller outfits in the first place? I thought it was to provide more leadership opportunities to cadets. In my day, you had a few outfits of 100 or more cadets and a few smaller one. Now we have a buttload of small outfits. Why do this if you are just going to leave training to the CTOs and major units?

I was a major unit commander back in the day and this plan would have been disastrous to implement when I was there. I know the corps has changed significantly since I was in so I don't want to say it won't work today, but I don't see how it can. First off, our CTO's, outside of one, were laughable. They couldn't lead a PT session if they wanted to. They were washed up officers who barely made it to retirement age with their oak leaf. Maybe that has changed. Secondly, the MUs were not staffed or equipped to do any of this. From what I can tell, battalions are gone and everything is a major unit now. That is a joke in and of itself. But if this is the case, it is a little easier to pull off. But I go back to my first point. I can count the number of times on my hand that I PT'ed at the Battalion or Brigade level in the Army. Granted, I wasn't combat arms, so maybe the BC lead pt in the infantry all the time and taught folks how to march, but I seriously doubt it.

Yeah, who cares about a water fight, it was pointless and someone always gets hurt. But these other changes are sad.

Also to note, the Commandant posts on here frequently so I am sure he has seen this thread. I was hoping to see a response, like he usually does on controversial threads. He usually sets some things straight or gives his reasoning and it is always helpful. I find it odd that he has not responded yet.

2/7Marine0311 said:

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If your son went through it recently then it was not student led. I don't think it should be student led because things that have no place on a major universities campus would still go on. i.e. axe handling, fish saunas, quadding, Anniversary of the battle of San Jacinto (Mexican cadets get quaded), chow privileges..... those have no place in leadership labs. The Military is not a place for the good ole boys.

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Hogwash on cadets not being capable of running things.

I agree with you 100% that axe handling, quadding, and other forms of hazing have no place.

I'm c/o' 98 and am proud to say that I never hit an underclassmen with an axe handle or anything else, nor was I hit by my upperclassmen.

If any of that junk happened in our outfit, it wasn't an outfit thing. I can't speak to the Bonfire guys, but that would most likely have been out at cut or stack.. If it did happen in the dorms, it was kept very quiet b/c our CO wouldn't have put up with that crap.

We were cadet run in my day with our military advisors only showing up every now and again - usually during CQ to study with us. We had good leadership from our zips my fish year, and they taught us how to run things the right way.

We PT'ed plenty, so it isn't like we skated.

I'm very curious to hear what / if anything came out of the Duncan powwow.

Cadets who started this and asked for our input.....

What came of the meeting? You cried wolf and people came...... where is it?

There was nothing to report worth noting, concerns were voiced and concerned parties were told we'll look into solutions. Not really sure why cadet run corps hasn't said anything. I assume most cadets are in the sit and wait phase of all this now and that's why there's less traffic here.

It seems to me, the University doesn't want the military having anything to do with the Corps of Cadets other than what is necessary to remain one of the six senior military colleges.

From the Citadel website:
Requirements to be a Senior Military College:

"Baccalaureate degrees must be granted.
All physically fit male students who reside on campus must take courses in military training. Exceptions to this requirement include foreign nationals, prior-service personnel, and students specifically excused by a professor of military science.
Outside ROTC, the school must establish a corps of cadets in which all students wear military uniforms. The corps of cadets involves a military environment in which the students live constantly, not just during the school day, and in which the students are subject to military discipline.
The SMC must have as an objective the development of character through military training and the regulation of cadet conduct according to principles of military discipline (a cadet code of conduct).

The SMC must maintain military standards similar to those of the federal service academies."

The University (not sure when) decided to bring the Commandant under it's umbrella. They did not have to do this.

10 U.S.C. 2111a - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 10. Armed Forces 2111a. Support for senior military colleges - See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-10-armed-forces/10-usc-sect-2111a.html#sthash.dT7sFqUK.dpuf



Detail of officers to serve as Commandant or Assistant Commandant of Cadets.-- Upon the request of a senior military college, the Secretary of Defense may detail an officer on the active-duty list to serve as Commandant of Cadets at that college or (in the case of a college with an Assistant Commandant of Cadets) detail an officer on the active-duty list to serve as Assistant Commandant of Cadets at that college (but not both).
In the case of an officer detailed as Commandant of Cadets, the officer may, upon the request of the college, be assigned from among the Professor of Military Science, the Professor of Naval Science (if any), and the Professor of Aerospace Science (if any) at that college or may be in addition to any other officer detailed to that college in support of the program.
In the case of an officer detailed as Assistant Commandant of Cadets, the officer may, upon the request of the college, be assigned from among officers otherwise detailed to duty at that college in support of the program or may be in addition to any other officer detailed to that college in support of the program.


The University is behind this, all of this.

Another note: I wonder how the new policies jive in respect to:
"The SMC must maintain military standards similar to those of the federal service academies"

I don't want our university being like the service academies or the other SMC.

Having been to the Citadel and to Annapolis I can tell you that for a majority of those cadets their life is miserable and they are just another cog in the machine.

The Citadel's cadets are like caged animals who are locked in their dorms every night, hazing still occurs there as well. With regards to the naval academy, I've met many former cadets who stayed away from Annapolis for years after they graduated because of how much they hated it.

I'm glad I went through the Corps here under Gen. Ramirez. Hence why I only donate to the CCA and not the Former Student Association. I love my university and the corps and believe that Gen. Ramirez, Col. Stebbins, Col. Emmerson, Col. Starnes, and Col. Hawes have the best interests of the cadets in mind. I would follow those men into battle any day.

To those cadets that are upset about the changing in rules regarding the corps..... You aren't the first to complain nor will you be the last. Between now and graduation you need to make the most of your time in the corps and foster positive relationships with your superiors and subordinates. Learn from everything. Also learn that things change and you have to deal with it.

As the old saying went.... "Let your watchword be duty...." Your duty is to follow the directives of the Commandant's staff.

2/7Marine0311 said:

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I don't want our university being like the service academies or the other SMC.

Having been to the Citadel and to Annapolis I can tell you that for a majority of those cadets their life is miserable and they are just another cog in the machine.

The Citadel's cadets are like caged animals who are locked in their dorms every night, hazing still occurs there as well. With regards to the naval academy, I've met many former cadets who stayed away from Annapolis for years after they graduated because of how much they hated it.

I'm glad I went through the Corps here under Gen. Ramirez. Hence why I only donate to the CCA and not the Former Student Association. I love my university and the corps and believe that Gen. Ramirez, Col. Stebbins, Col. Emmerson, Col. Starnes, and Col. Hawes have the best interests of the cadets in mind. I would follow those men into battle any day.

To those cadets that are upset about the changing in rules regarding the corps..... You aren't the first to complain nor will you be the last. Between now and graduation you need to make the most of your time in the corps and foster positive relationships with your superiors and subordinates. Learn from everything. Also learn that things change and you have to deal with it.

As the old saying went.... "Let your watchword be duty...." Your duty is to follow the directives of the Commandant's staff.

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I went thru the Corps and served 8 years as a commissioned officer. I would say I earned success in both.

I certainly listened to and followed directives.

But I never followed every single directive without any thought or constructive thought returned up the chain. Being a lemming can be dangerous.

74OA said:

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Just FYI, this is the Corps' mission statement quoted from the current Standard: "The Corps of Cadets develops well-educated leaders of character who embody the values of Honor, Courage, Integrity, Discipline and Selfless Service, are academically successful, highly sought-after, and prepared for the global leadership challenges of the future." There is no mention of military service, as the Corps has always existed to equally provide leaders for the community, state and Nation.

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I appreciate this sentiment. I did not join the corps with the intent of going into the military. I saw its other qualities and leadership opportunities when I decided to join.

But, I have to disagree with the last part of your statement. The land grant school under the Morrill Act were mandated to provide training in the military arts for the purpose of having a group of men ready to fight if the nation needed it. It was the genesis of the ROTC program. The Corps was set up and designed to train students for military service. Of course, service was not compulsory at the time so the fraternal aspects of the Corps developed rather quickly. But the Corps purpose was to train military leaders if the need should arise and it should never lose sight of that. The fact that good leadership training benefits the community, state and nation as much as it does the military is a great benefit.

And I will add that most people coming out of college are still going to need small group leadership skills. Most people coming into a position start at the bottom and not the top. Just my opinion.

2/7Marine0311 said:

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I don't want our university being like the service academies or the other SMC.

Having been to the Citadel and to Annapolis I can tell you that for a majority of those cadets their life is miserable and they are just another cog in the machine.

The Citadel's cadets are like caged animals who are locked in their dorms every night, hazing still occurs there as well. With regards to the naval academy, I've met many former cadets who stayed away from Annapolis for years after they graduated because of how much they hated it.

I'm glad I went through the Corps here under Gen. Ramirez. Hence why I only donate to the CCA and not the Former Student Association. I love my university and the corps and believe that Gen. Ramirez, Col. Stebbins, Col. Emmerson, Col. Starnes, and Col. Hawes have the best interests of the cadets in mind. I would follow those men into battle any day.

To those cadets that are upset about the changing in rules regarding the corps..... You aren't the first to complain nor will you be the last. Between now and graduation you need to make the most of your time in the corps and foster positive relationships with your superiors and subordinates. Learn from everything. Also learn that things change and you have to deal with it.

As the old saying went.... "Let your watchword be duty...." Your duty is to follow the directives of the Commandant's staff.

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BLINDLY ????????

I got to talk to a couple cadets recently, and I think I may have things figured out a little. A lot of this is conjecture based off what they said, but it seems like there are a limited number of leadership opportunities in the Corps, right? Only so many COs, major unit commanders, 1st sgts, etc. For everyone else, unless you've got a contract, how much are you developing your leadership other than taking some D&C classes and getting a little certificate that says "I know how to lead." And with the Corps growing, there are even fewer leadership opportunities relative to its size.

So I think the Commandant's staff has identified this, and decided that for everyone else, let's just make the Corps a great experience. Let's flood them with things like the marksmanship unit, the soccer team, the crossfit team, etc. and let's get old ags to pay for it through the CCA so cadets can just have fun and not worry about how to pay for these things. It's like getting your parents to pay for summer camp instead of mowing lawns to raise your own money. All the fun with minimal work. If you're a prospective student looking at the Corps, not interested in a contract, this has got to sound like a pretty good deal.

BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Come to think of it, was it the hazing death that spurred a commandant separate from the ROTCs? A staff dedicated to watching over the Corps, if you will. I feel like that death was somewhere in that timeframe.

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Wasn't that heat related in a morning run - not hazing ?

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A series of errors, to the extent I have heard from those who were present and to my understanding.

A very early run wherein the cadet had pre-existing, undisclosed medical issues. The run was arguably problematic as the extent of cadet supervision was apparently limited.

There are lots of other details as to the past actions.

But with respect to the future, it comes down to this:
The Corps should be cadet run, seeking to achieve the vision of each cadet leader, within the more expansive vision of the Commandant and the President of the University and with supervision therefrom.
Cadets should be trained to lead, by senior cadets and with other resources including the Office of the Commandant and leadership courses within the university.
Cadets should lead with reference to clear written expectations, knowing that violations will incur punishment from those above.
Leadership includes the administration of discipline compliant with all other training to individuals in full view of multiple supervisors and of a full class in view of multiple supervisors BUT not subordinates. This necessarily should include reasonable physical exercise as a means of punishment for failures in discipline.
Oversight means providing sufficient instruction to safeguard the institution, ensuring advancement of members, and permitting non-critical failures to occur.

There are substantial leadership opportunities across the Corps. More than when I was there.
Co, XO, PLs,, 1GT for each speciality unit
Endless opportunities off the Quad - yearbook, student government, The Batt, SCONA, OPAS, etc.
Cadets just need to get off the Quad.

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Delta Company

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Ok, so you were in the prior service outfit...right? Lived off campus? Only showed up for morning/evening formations?

If the above is true then your posts do not hold as much weight.

2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Delta Company

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Ok, so you were in the prior service outfit...right? Lived off campus? Only showed up for morning/evening formations?

If the above is true then your posts do not hold as much weight.

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