General EPL Discussion/Housery Thread

230,344 Views | 2837 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Furlock Bones
Furlock Bones
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Dre_00 said:

Pretty unambiguous that a player is onside if the player is even or in front of the final defender and goalie when the pass is played...and yet.

I get why they didn't stop the play but...if we're going to lessen the pressure on refs and make a virtually impossible job slightly more possible, we really need to come up with a way for refs to correct mistakes. And that includes VAR.

(Or just trash VAR because it's causing more problems than it's solving and at least do the other thing)
I don't know if its because we watch more EPL or not. But, I think English are the absolute worst at VAR because they have created so many ridiculous rules to the process.


deadbq03
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I don't think VAR is causing more problems than it's fixing. The overwhelming majority of VAR calls are correct, and the rate probably approaches 100% when it's actually an overturn. If the call on the field is wrong (like this case), yet upheld by VAR, the outcome is no worse off than it was before (other than that you had an expectation VAR would actually do its job). I'd rather see some bad calls actually get fixed than no bad calls get fixed.

The simple solution to offside cases like this is to literally not make a call on the field and defer completely to VAR. It's a black and white thing that VAR can easily and quickly spot. Let the dudes score and celebrate, complete your check and either uphold the goal or overturn. That needs to be their mindset.

That seems like the big difference between EPL and Bundesliga. Bundesliga refs and ARs will swallow their whistles in close calls and are happy to let VAR sort it out. EPL officials seem to have an ego that doesn't want to give VAR that power. The big problems in EPL recently have been because the ref goes and takes a look and disagrees with VAR or because the ref mishears what VAR is trying to tell him (perhaps because he's god and has his mind made up).

The problem isn't VAR. The problem is refs.
Showstopper
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They need to go to the automated VAR system, in my opinion. I don't think the human aid is adding much certainty; the n fact, if the past week is any indication, the contrary appears true. We will just have to hope SkyNet doesn't hold a grudge against our particular clubs although I think we all know Liverpool will be convinced it is biased in favor of United before long.

The Red/Yellow card review is a bit trickier. I don't like the calls that don't look that bad in real time, but review comes up with a freeze frame that looks like one guy is murdering the other.. I would almost rather that the review to give cards went away, and it only existed to take them away. The counter to that would is that it encourages guys to play more aggressively, and we want to decrease injuries rather than the reverse.

Not related, but while I'm ranting anyway, i hate the new dissent rules. Rather than penalizing players and managers for saying your calls are ****, how about you concentrate on not making **** calls, how would that be? I understand needing to stop stuff like Jose who is inciteful anyway, but they've gone way too far the other direction.
Dre_00
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deadbq03 said:

I don't think VAR is causing more problems than it's fixing. The overwhelming majority of VAR calls are correct, and the rate probably approaches 100% when it's actually an overturn. If the call on the field is wrong (like this case), yet upheld by VAR, the outcome is no worse off than it was before (other than that you had an expectation VAR would actually do its job). I'd rather see some bad calls actually get fixed than no bad calls get fixed.

The simple solution to offside cases like this is to literally not make a call on the field and defer completely to VAR. It's a black and white thing that VAR can easily and quickly spot. Let the dudes score and celebrate, complete your check and either uphold the goal or overturn. That needs to be their mindset.

That seems like the big difference between EPL and Bundesliga. Bundesliga refs and ARs will swallow their whistles in close calls and are happy to let VAR sort it out. EPL officials seem to have an ego that doesn't want to give VAR that power. The big problems in EPL recently have been because the ref goes and takes a look and disagrees with VAR or because the ref mishears what VAR is trying to tell him (perhaps because he's god and has his mind made up).

The problem isn't VAR. The problem is refs.

I think that's a narrow definition of "problem". Of course the complete absence of VAR in the Liverpool/Spurs would have led to an incorrect decision just like the actual use of VAR did.

But if that mistake was made in the old days, people would have been mad at the AR, he probably would've even received death threats and people would have screamed for creating a VAR system. Now, people are mad at multiple refs, an entire system and the game was stopped for several minutes (remember what it was like to watch games without VAR stoppages?)...and I would argue that it is so much worse than the anger that came before VAR because of how VAR was sold and the expectations of VAR. Of course even back then, people would get irate and completely forget that a human makes mistakes. But at least some people realized that and that tempered the overall reaction. Now, more people expect more it's clear the expectations aren't being met. Oh and while not relevant here, the mere existence of VAR has completely changed the feeling of watching a goal because you sometimes aren't sure if VAR is going to take it away. All of that stuff, to me, is causing more problems than it is fixing. Certainly in the context of when it doesn't correct an obvious error. But I would argue that the success rate is not high enough and it is often misapplied making it not worth dealing with all the crap that has to come with VAR.

I do agree with the opinion that EPL does it the worst and it's absolutely used incorrectly. It's too often used for judgement calls. I would argue that at least half of those VAR apologies from a few pages ago should never have been made because they were judgement calls. Stop using VAR for judgment calls. More often than not, it just relitigates the decision with a 2nd ref who can get come to an opinion that is different than the 1st but that doesn't mean the 1st was incorrect. Until VAR can run like goal line technology and only solve a specific subset of errors, it's never going to be a net gain.
DeangeloVickers
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deadbq03
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I can respect that take, even if I can't share it.

I tend to see things differently since I've only really followed the sport since the coming of VAR. So for me, seeing bad calls go uncorrected in non-VAR games upsets me far more than stoppages do. And that's why I wish more things were reviewable, not less (top of my list is corner-FK decisions, which is another black-and-white call that ought to be easy to make quickly).
wangus12
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Damn looks like Everton might survive another year lol
jeffk
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I appreciated Spurs going down to 10 men today to show their solidarity with Liverpool. Generous gesture.
YNWA.2013
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-FTA c/o 2013
DeangeloVickers
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jeffk
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Not sure if y'all saw this from Norwich. Pretty well-done spot.

YNWA.2013
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Always breaks my heart to see people seek out a permanent solution to their problems. But I am hopeful the world is starting to have those conversations and I hope our politicians make it easier to have access to help for those that need it. Well done, Norwich
-FTA c/o 2013
Rudyjax
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Until we look at suicide the same way we do cancer, we'll continue to struggle with managing if.
Thunder18
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jeffk said:

Not sure if y'all saw this from Norwich. Pretty well-done spot.




Powerful video, thanks for sharing
agsalaska
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Different league I know but another incredibly bad VAR call in France this weekend.

I tend to agree with the Liverpool take that it is an integrity/corruption issue as much as anything else.





It is so bad he clearly knows it and is expecting the call when he turns around but the ref misses it.



Edit to add- It is the second goal at about 30 seconds.
Rudyjax
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Quote:

I tend to agree with the Liverpool take that it is an integrity/corruption issue as much as anything else.
I can't think that situation was nothing more than lack of process.
agsalaska
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Rudyjax said:

Quote:

I tend to agree with the Liverpool take that it is an integrity/corruption issue as much as anything else.
I can't think that situation was nothing more than lack of process.
Man I don't know about that. Maybe in that specific incident at Spurs this weekend. But not all of them. It happens too often. Soccer is the most corrupt sport in the world.

It's not that hard man. I can sit on my couch and get it right.
DeangeloVickers
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Rudyjax
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The simplest explanation is a combination of corruption, incompetence and structural inefficiency.
DeangeloVickers
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jeffk
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Fake news
ChipFTAC01
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jeffk said:

Fake news


Troof
ChipFTAC01
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Debate I just saw a clip of. 19-20 Liverpool or invincible Arsenal in one game. I'm pretty sure Liverpool wins that handily just because it's 20 years later. Same reason I think the 2023 As could probably beat the 27 Yankees
Dre_00
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The gap in training, conditioning, nutrition, etc. is not nearly as large over 15 years as it is over almost 100 years. If you watch the players from the early oughts, they don't look out of place in today's game. It would be competitive IMO.
deadbq03
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I was thinking you might be right, because highlights certainly show amazing shots and things from that era… but if these numbers from 2005 are accurate, then the fastest players today are basically 10% faster. That difference isn't gonna just be isolated to the top of the charts… if you've got a whole team of guys roughly 10% faster than another team, that's bound to make a big difference.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-514146/Who-fastest-footballer-Premier-League--Ronaldo-Lennon-AJ-Find-here.html
jeffk
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I think it's important to realize that the Invincibles are all in their mid-40s now.
Forum Troll
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Anyone see what Ajax is doing so far this season? 17th in the Eredivisie and supporters stopping games because they are throwing so much **** onto the pitch in frustration.
oragator
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Not EPL, but didn't have a thread to drop it in.

TXAggie2011
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Forum Troll said:

Anyone see what Ajax is doing so far this season? 17th in the Eredivisie and supporters stopping games because they are throwing so much **** onto the pitch in frustration.


Yep. They're in full meltdown mode. Manager is gone, now, the first step to healing it
Rudyjax
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KCup17
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Wouldn't that be something!
wangus12
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Wow. The Premier League is recommending a 12 point deduction for Everton after a supposed FFP breach. That would put them into the negative (-5) currently. Will be crazy if that actually happens.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/breach-of-ffp-rules-everton-could-be-deducted-12-points/view/news/429510

If it does, I wonder if the give Man City a 12 point deduction for their 115 alleged breaches. That equals 1380 points. Distribute that across the next 15 seasons. That'll take them all the way down to the lowest tier of football and bury them there.
texagbeliever
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wangus12 said:

Wow. The Premier League is recommending a 12 point deduction for Everton after a supposed FFP breach. That would put them into the negative (-5) currently. Will be crazy if that actually happens.

https://www.transfermarkt.us/breach-of-ffp-rules-everton-could-be-deducted-12-points/view/news/429510

If it does, I wonder if the give Man City a 12 point deduction for their 115 alleged breaches. That equals 1380 points. Distribute that across the next 15 seasons. That'll take them all the way down to the lowest tier of football and bury them there.
The issue isn't that they breached the rules. The issue that they are losing money ergo can't pay the independent commission to not see anything here. Man City doesn't have that problem.
wangus12
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Don't go poking holes in my request for justice!
gougler08
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Docking Everton points but not City, I guess the corruption stereotypes for European soccer are there for a reason
 
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