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80,000 A&M students in 10 years

286,737 Views | 1687 Replies | Last: 5 mo ago by Bill Superman
VanZandt92
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quote:
Good point. No one wants to make A&M into Stanford.

However there is no reason whatsoever we can't approach the academics of Virginia or Berkeley.

None.

And to make it football related, we've never been elite in football either. Does that mean we shouldn't aspire to that?


Thank you. You could add Unc and tu to that list.
VanZandt92
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quote:
quote:
the name of a school means less than you think.


At the top end, that's not correct. And, as has been mentioned, in many professional fields, that's not correct.

We either want "Texas A&M University" to mean something academically, or we don't.

If "the name of the school means less than you think" why do we care about where we go to school at all? Why is there any such thing as school pride or school spirit? Surely rooting for athletic teams isn't the foundation for all school loyalty? I truly wish Aggies cared as much about this sort of thing as they do football. Really, I truly do.


Thanks Cecil. Yeah, I have to compete with multiple people from Michigan and Berkley. While I believe my education to be equivalent, they certainly are proud of their academics.
KSigAg12
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AG
You're overrating tu academics a little bit. They used to be that good, but the top 10% rule hurt their rep. That being said, there is no reason A&M shouldn't be as high as them. Mays has approached McCombs for the last few years but is still behind. Our lack of Law School and Medical School has been a problem and both of those issues are being resolved. I don't really think A&M is going to go to 80,000 students. At least I hope not. I think 50 should be the cap.

Also, I had a cousin with a 4.0 who applied to Mays recently who didn't get in. He got into TCU. So even if enrollment is growing, the allowing in of under qualified applicants hasn't started yet. It's something we should be wary of for sure and it is an important issue to me, but people already saying they are sending their future kids to tu are probably jumping the gun JUST a bit.

Womackster
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AG
I would just like to point out that this thread still has nothing to do with football.
VanZandt92
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quote:
You're overrating tu academics a little bit. They used to be that good, but the top 10% rule hurt their rep. That being said, there is no reason A&M shouldn't be as high as them. Mays has approached McCombs for the last few years but is still behind. Our lack of Law School and Medical School has been a problem and both of those issues are being resolved. I don't really think A&M is going to go to 80,000 students. At least I hope not. I think 50 should be the cap.

Also, I had a cousin with a 4.0 who applied to Mays recently who didn't get in. He got into TCU. So even if enrollment is growing, the allowing in of under qualified applicants hasn't started yet. It's something we should be wary of for sure and it is an important issue to me, but people already saying they are sending their future kids to tu are probably jumping the gun JUST a bit.




KSig we're going to 80k and it will affect your degree as an asset.

And AEKDB.
VanZandt92
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quote:
I would just like to point out that this thread still has nothing to do with football.


It applies to filing the stadium, so there you go. And many of our professors who aren't Ags cannot access Ags Only forums so this spot works. These guys are often big Aggie fans.
KSigAg12
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AG
And like I said I hope not. But like I said, based on what I've personally experienced on the ground, it hasn't started yet. When kids that would've been shoe ins to get into Mays a few years ago aren't getting in, it seems the problem is not yet existent. Nothing wrong with being vigilant though.
Womackster
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AG
quote:
quote:
I would just like to point out that this thread still has nothing to do with football.


It applies to filing the stadium, so there you go. And many of our professors who aren't Ags cannot access Ags Only forums so this spot works. These guys are often big Aggie fans.
Nah.
KSigAg12
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AG
Btw whoever said A&M is 5th/6th in texas is full of it. Were basically right with smu, still ahead of tcu and Baylor. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't improve or shouldn't cap enrollment, but your current analysis of where A&M is isn't accurate.
TXAggie2011
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AG
quote:
This is a results driven world and too many of you are buying into the branding hype of these universities. It's not the association with MIT or Harvard that spawns Nobel Laureates but the quality of the papers written by these Laureats. Hell, even a Swiss patent clerk has one. The common denominator isn't the school but their higher than average intelligence and work ethic.
It is a results driven world and I am thankful for that because I wasn't born the descendant of Conrad Hilton or Robert Kardashian.

But the fact is the people who have the work ethic, the will power, the higher than average intelligence tend to attend and graduate from certain schools. We want A&M to be a place that attracts those kinds of people.

Now, you might say it doesn't matter if they congregate at Harvard or not, and I'd say that's at least partially true- but when a bunch of hard working smart folks gather, I do think there are great benefits.

They push each other to be their best. They bounce ideas and theories off of each other. They have stimulating conversation. It creates an environment that I think makes everyone a better student of whatever discipline they are in.

I think that also leads to other benefits- better professors (they seek out stimulating environments), better libraries (there are actually significant amounts of people putting them to use), etc...

On a similar note- one thing I am really afraid of is that our class sizes will have to grow- perhaps significantly. I think that is terrible for the academic experience. It gives students less face time with their professors, it leads to students standing around in their labs watching another student use the equipment. And I think students don't get to know each other as well as they would in smaller classes.

And I'm certainly terrified of having to increase the number of online classes.

I also don't want students to have to wait to get on a computer in a computer lab. I don't want them to struggle to get put on the schedule to see a counselor.

I generally don't want A&M to turn into a place where everyone is constantly battling crowds in order to see who they are trying to see and do what they are trying to do. That was my experience when I took a summer class at the Dallas County Community College, and it was terrible.

If you can point to anything reliable which suggests our human and other physical infrastructure is keeping up with the student population both in quantity and quality, then please show me. It'll make me feel a little better, but I've been struggling to find that kind of information.

quote:
Not everyone is going to be designing space based neutron beam weapons. Some of us will have to run the chemical processing plants in Baytown or operate the reactors at South Texas (Nuclear) Project. Someone needs to be the sales rep for agriculture recycling companies. Drillers need land men and submersible project managers. Communities need police officers and teachers and the Marines need platoons leaders. I know many of these people and they are called Aggies.

We have school pride because we share a brotherly bond that stretches across generations. Our traditions give us common experiences that knit us together in a way others can't comprehend. When I look upon the memorial at the front of the quad and try to hold back tears reading the names of my classmates, I know the Aggie 30 years my senior standing just a few feet to my right is also thinking about the times he spent with his old classmates, just as he has done a hundred times before.

If you can't take pride in a school like that, there are other places for you.

And you think growing the student population by the thousands every year is conducive to creating closely-knit graduating classes with a strong sense of community and brotherhood?
KSigAg12
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AG
http://www.thebestcolleges.org/rankings/texas/

http://college.usatoday.com/2014/10/23/the-top-ten-colleges-in-the-state-of-texas/

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/search?name=&location=TX&enrollment-min=0&enrollment-max=14000&tuition-min=5000&tuition-max=50000&acceptance-min=10&acceptance-max=90&major=&spp=25&page=3

Two favorable rankings for A&M, one unfavorable. Again, I feel very strongly that A&M should continue to improve its academic reputation and should cap enrollment. This is a sensitive subject to me. I grew up an Aggie and went to a private school in Dallas with kids that went to the Harvards and Michigans of the world. I think A&M's current academics are underrated and have felt that way for a long time, but I would love A&M to move up a couple more notches. As you can see with the above links though, perspective is everything.
cecil77
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AG
You left out Rice? We're fourth in Texas right now.
KSigAg12
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AG
No i didn't. We are behind rice, texas, and smu and it's not like we are getting our brains beat out. I'm not going to count trinity or southwestern. I think we should only be behind rice. I love my school. But people make the CURRENT situation sound way worse than it is.
cecil77
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AG
Agree.
greg.w.h
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AG
quote:
Just because freshman admissions are limited (im not sure about your top 10% number, because that's a farce) there's plenty of ways into A&M for people who want in. Its... not hard.
http://dars.tamu.edu/dars/files/f7/f7b1d2e6-ed47-4b27-8730-8cfcfaccf924.pdf

First-time in college profile
For the incoming 2013 class Average SAT critical reading (aka verbal) is 578 and average math is 613 overall is 1192.

http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/2013/TotalGroup-2013.pdf

Overall mean SAT scores for high school graduates in 2013:
Critical reading 496 with sd of 115
Math 514 with sd of 118

So the mean for our incoming freshmen is 82/115 = .71 std deviations above the national mean for verbal, and 99/118 = 0,83 for math.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SATIQ.aspx
Note this table is specific to post-1995 SAT I
SAT math+verbal overall to IQ correlation correlates 1190 to a rough range of 122.49 to 123.99 for a percentile of 93.312

Now that again is a MEAN overall. And its clearly difficult to correlate the percentiles of those who take the SAT with the general intelligence of the population but since SAT self-selects for students likely to go to school, you would expect the population to "skew to the right" in an IQ distribution chart. The SAT to IQ correlations are of course inexact but the SAT and the ACT are considered predictive of college-level success which MIGHT be correlated to whatever IQ measures.

TL ; DR? Our incoming freshmen in the fall of 2013 had an overall verbal + math SAT MEAN of 1192 which correlates to roughly a 123.5 IQ and a 93.4 percentile in the general population. We on average accept students in greater than the top 10% of the population intellectually and that is ACCOUNTING FOR any downward pressure from the 10% rule.

I look forward to your next troll.
cecil77
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AG
Comparison to the general population is interesting, but not germane.

Comparison to our competition would be more interesting.
greg.w.h
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AG
Btw: I am not surprised that Rice, Texas, and SMU all have higher mean SAT scores. Trinity also appears to have higher mean SAT. Southwestern University appears to be under ours on average. Tech's 75th percentile SAT scores look like our mean.

This is a somewhat dated about.com chart comparing Texas schools: http://collegeapps.about.com/od/sat/a/top-texas-sat-scores.htm

Mean scores are roughly the mid-point between 25th and 75th percentile (unless you're Rice because they're up in the stratosphere on their 75th percentile which is definitively non-linear.)
KSigAg12
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AG
What would happen to all of these plans or your feelings on these plans if someone were able to kill the top 10% rule in the legislature sometime in the next 5-10 years?
cecil77
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AG
That would be great, but I fear our biggest problem is a combination of "mission creep" coupled with hubris at the top.
Westlake1
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I've never understood why Texas or Texas A&M were ever a part of the top 10% rule in the first place. Those two universities are tier 1 public schools in Texas and should not be required to admit students who are clearly not prepared for the rigor found in classes there. If you can't demonstrate by an SAT score combined with class rank that you belong at these schools then go somewhere else.

Academically weak students have been admitted to these two schools with SAT scores in the low 800s because of their class rank which hurts the academics of the school and sets the student up for failure.
VanZandt92
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quote:
Comparison to the general population is interesting, but not germane.

Comparison to our competition would be more interesting.
greg.w.h
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AG
quote:
What would happen to all of these plans or your feelings on these plans if someone were able to kill the top 10% rule in the legislature sometime in the next 5-10 years?
Great question. Know any of the history on Hopwood v. Texas?

The University of Texas much prefers to work around the top 10% rule because it doesn't promote sufficient diversity which means 2+x Asian representation and roughly 50% of Black (whites are 7 percentage points higher in the 10% demographics than in general pop i.e. 44 to 37 in 2012.) This Dallas Morning News article provides more background.

The tension between Asian interests recently exploded with accusations against Ivy League schools--specifically Harvard--for suppressing Asian admits. We all know affirmative action produces results that are less than directly meritocratic, but Nixon initiated affirmative action precisely to provide a gradual adjustment for systemic racial discrimination.

I don't have an opinion regarding whether such a plan works or not, but I would argue that Title IX's impact specifically on NCAA intercollegiate athletics could be viewed in a very positive light especially at A&M. It very much is quota based. And it plays Robin Hood with the well-off sports of football and men's basketball. And it works though rather much as a blunt instrument rather than a wise solution. But it establishes a clear and objectively measurable expectation.

The 10% rule is less direct, less effective, but very carefully buttresses against the complaints of the Hopwood ruling by the 5th Circuit (IANAL, IMHO). Changing it would be hard. Changing it so that there is political manipulation in the admit system such as Bill Powers maintained seems anathema to me UNLESS it is a transparent, public, and legal system (i.e. statutory law.)
greg.w.h
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AG
quote:
quote:
Comparison to the general population is interesting, but not germane.

Comparison to our competition would be more interesting.

Comparison to the general population was the basis of the claim of "farce" that I was responding to. We by several lines of reasoning maintain a student population that at least on average is 90th percentile or above. I know of no other comparison to make than the general population for that reasoning. Feel free to help me respond to the "farce" claim with another means of measurement if you would like. I picked one I could reason with from fairly well understood public data and analysis.
greg.w.h
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AG
quote:
I've never understood why Texas or Texas A&M were ever a part of the top 10% rule in the first place. Those two universities are tier 1 public schools in Texas and should not be required to admit students who are clearly not prepared for the rigor found in classes there. If you can't demonstrate by an SAT score combined with class rank that you belong at these schools then go somewhere else.

Academically weak students have been admitted to these two schools with SAT scores in the low 800s because of their class rank which hurts the academics of the school and sets the student up for failure.
It's the law.
VanZandt92
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The 10 percent rule isn't the main issue here. The rape of a great, rising institution is.
Westlake1
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Of course it is the law but my opinion is the top 10% rules should never have applied to Texas or Texas A&M. In the UC system, the top 6% are auto-admits to the UC system, but they are not auto-admitted to a specific university. California students in the top 6% are placed into a university in the UC system but not necessarily the one they want to attend.
bogustrumper
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AG
quote:
The 10 percent rule isn't the main issue here. The rape of a great, rising institution is.


Yes.

Rolling down the road to becoming another mega university like Arizona State. 80,000? Why?

For the sake of diversity?
greg.w.h
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AG
quote:
Of course it is the law but my opinion is the top 10% rules should never have applied to Texas or Texas A&M. In the UC system, the top 6% are auto-admits to the UC system, but they are not auto-admitted to a specific university. California students in the top 6% are placed into a university in the UC system but not necessarily the one they want to attend.
Texas House Bill 588 that created the 10% rule specifically was a response to Hopwood. Which was a case the University of Texas won on behalf of the Texas Law School at the federal district level and was overturned by the 5th Circuit. It addressed the loss of racial preferences by instituting a system that was designed to accomplish a demographically neutral admission policy. It therefore applied specifically to Texas but additionally to all Texas public colleges and universities though it was later modified with respect to the University of Texas by Texas Senate Bill 175 that caps 10% auto admits to 75% of the target freshman enrollment number for the year.

I understand the concern, but the legislators that crafted the compromise that led to the 10% rule specifically intended that the two flagships be included. And at least at the time they were satisfied with the solution. Note the Dallas Morning News article I listed earlier regarding the current situation due to the demographics of the general population of high school students not being full reflected in the 10% rule admission pools to date. Also note that from what I gleaned today, pretty much 100% of Top 10% rule pool members apply to at least one Texas public school and several apply to more than one. So it is a very successful policy at opening up admissions to that pool of qualified students from that standpoint.

In all honesty, success in school at A&M is more attainable today than when I went there because the student support systems at least on paper are better organized and that is specifically to help with remediation in preparation gaps for students who have other life challenges i.e. the ones with lower test scores who bring other capabilities and life experiences to the school. The law, unfortunately, is a rather blunt instrument but I feel confident that A&M's admissions department and process is working effectively to meet the challenge of bringing in students that belong here. Or said a little differently: "We are the Aggies, the Aggies are we. True to each other as Aggies can be."
coldmoose
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Embrace the University of Central Florida.
Big.
KSigAg12
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AG
Back in high school I did have to read up on Hopwood vs Texas along with the original case at Michigan. Given the sweeping attention it would garner, I know changing the law would be a tough hill to climb. But there's no doubt it has been our states watered down version of affirmative action.
Spurswin5
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quote:
quote:
He graduated number 10 in his class. He was accepted to UC Berkeley but is currently at UT in part because: 1) it is a better fit for him (loves Austin and our roots are in the Hill Country), 2) UT is more selective, 3) because of number 2 the PERCEPTION among the top 2% of students in his HS is that UT is more prestigious. NOTE: my son isn't majoring in engineering but in biology.

Where in the world are you getting the idea that UT is more selective than Berkeley? Hard to take the rest of your post seriously after that.
Sex Panther

Good catch. I was in a hurry. My son was accepted to UC Berkeley but we decided we weren't going to let the whims of an 18 year old coerce us into spending $55K/yr for an undergraduate degree in biology which is essentially preparatory for grad school.

Concerning the rest of my post, I believe it has merit for several reasons: 1) I recruit at TAMU for students and they measure up equally well as t.u. grads at the major oil company where I am employed , 2) there has been a change in attitude/perception about TAMU vs. t.u. over the last 10 years at the local high school that my sons attend/attended--that t.u. has become more selective than TAMU by far and that has resulted in, 3) group think where the top of the top kids look at t.u. to be not better but MUCH better than TAMU, which is why , 4) I suggested that today's perception can be tomorrow's reality.

This ultimately led me to ask the current students if they could look into/locate some detailed information about what percentage/numbers of the incoming classes at both TAMU and t.u. are from the top 1%, top 4%, etc. of the class. After further thought it would be great to see that data not only for the last year that this information is available but for every year since the top 10% rule went into effect and then see if there is an inflection point in the data in t.u.'s favor once t.u. went to top 7% while we stayed top 10%. To me it would be incredibly illuminating if there truly is data to suggest that t.u. is yielding a higher percentage of these kids after the top 10% rule went into effect and possibly even a greater percentage after t.u. went to top 7%.

Let the data speak for itself. If the data suggests that this is true then the other part of my post is important: TAMU needs to promote itself at the most competitive high schools in Texas so we don't lose further ground because I do believe that today's perceptions become tomorrow's reality.

Lastly, I understand to some degree that TAMU will continue to get larger but to me it is the rate of change/flux that is important. I would love to see the students at TAMU create a surveymonkey/online survey for professors to anonymously answer questions about TAMU and direction we are headed vis-a-vis increasing enrollment, the direction of the school under Sharp vs. Gates, etc., student quality and what factors they feel are important to maintain/improve, etc. And then the students need to publish the results on the front page of the Battalion.

If people on this board are truly concerned about the direction of TAMU then do something about it and that goes double for the students. Students are supposed to protest/raise a ruckus if they aren't happy but they need to do so with facts in hand. Hopefully someone on campus will research the TAMU vs. t.u. statistics for the top percentages of students and hopefully we can hear from the professors/results of the survey.

With that in hand current students/alumni will have some of the ammo they need to open a dialogue with the administration about the direction TAMU is headed.
cecil77
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AG
quote:
My son was accepted to UC Berkeley but we decided we weren't going to let the whims of an 18 year old coerce us into spending $55K/yr for an undergraduate degree in biology which is essentially preparatory for grad school.

Interesting. We raised our kids to get accepted to the best school they could, we'd find a way to make it work. There's just lots of different ways to approach these things...
AgCPA
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AG
I know and deal with a great number of faculty members. While this is anecdotal granted, I have not heard one speak well of the growth plan particularly in Engineering. Some of them seem so disgusted that leaving is on their minds. But a survey would be interesting.
houstonag2008
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Does anyone know how the new president feels about this initiative?

He appears to have an excellent academic pedigree and did a great job at Washington.
KSigAg12
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AG
I remember this being the case in high school. I remember one student who said she was surprised when her college counselor told her that the academics at A&M and Texas were on par with one another. The acceptance rate at A&M (along sometimes with the name A&M) gets in the way of A&M taking that next step in being a top ten public university. We are stuck in just settling for the tail end of the top 25, and this plan could certainly take us a step back. Rankings don't indicate the education you'll receive in college, but like you said, they affect the perception and perception is everything.
 
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