Preliminary report from flight data to be released on Friday. It is expected to focus on fuel control switches.

Jetpilot86 said:

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ClickClack said:

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Guys, it's possible that if one engine was having issues that they accidentally cut fuel flow to the wrong engine as that is part of the procedure for shutting down a damaged engine. That is the scenario where the fuel cut off would have been toggled. On the wrong engine, inadvertently.

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You NEVER, NEVER secure an engine at that altitude. Not even if it's on fire. They would be ignoring everything they ever were taught in the simulator to do so.

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Did they have any simulator training?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but...

No one would have suspected that, in 1979, maintenance for multiple airlines was using forklifts to lift and hold up engines -- including as long as overnight -- for changes that went totally against MD recommendations. (Re: AA191).

Anything is possible with Air India but these two pilots were very experienced (pilot had over 8000 hours).

My real concern here is that Indian aviation is about to get vastly more dangerous over the next 10+ years. Indigo and Air India have something like 1500 on order just between the two of them. Mostly 737's and A320's, but there aren't an extra 2500+ crews out there in the world who are trained/ready/willing to fly to all the new airports/terminals they plan to operate from, if built.

Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

Going from 700 planes to 3000+ within 10 years, after domestic travel there had already more than doubled in the previous decade (without enough attendant infrastructure growth), means massive growth in airport/ATC infrastructure is needed, more so than even the famous example of Chinese expansion in the early part of this century. They claim to have plans to open 'at least' 220 more airports in the next 5 or so years if I recall correctly.

These things 'can' be done with enough money/tight project controls etc., but those aren't thinks India's government is known for managing well, at all. I think it's going to be a complete mess, and likely a dangerous one if past is prologue, but that's just my two cents and I am skeptical too many 'western' pilots (WB and NB ones alike) will really find the financial incentives 'attractive' for the career/lifestyle/risks. It would be 'safer' to take a job somewhere in greater SE Asia, I believe.

Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

91AggieLawyer said:

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Jetpilot86 said:

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ClickClack said:

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Guys, it's possible that if one engine was having issues that they accidentally cut fuel flow to the wrong engine as that is part of the procedure for shutting down a damaged engine. That is the scenario where the fuel cut off would have been toggled. On the wrong engine, inadvertently.

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You NEVER, NEVER secure an engine at that altitude. Not even if it's on fire. They would be ignoring everything they ever were taught in the simulator to do so.

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Did they have any simulator training?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but...

No one would have suspected that, in 1979, maintenance for multiple airlines was using forklifts to lift and hold up engines -- including as long as overnight -- for changes that went totally against MD recommendations. (Re: AA191).

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They "should" have.

Mas89 said:

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Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

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I've got 4 years to go. I plan on flying after retirement, just not getting paid to do so. Mostly to haul my golf clubs around. It would have to be a very easy and lucrative gig to get my attention in retirement.

Mas89 said:

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Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

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Sounds like you want him to go back to work.

Jetpilot86 said:

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Mas89 said:

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Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

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I've got 4 years to go. I plan on flying after retirement, just not getting paid to do so. Mostly to haul my golf clubs around. It would have to be a very easy and lucrative gig to get my attention in retirement.

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Is that an Acclaim Ultra?!

evan_aggie said:

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Jetpilot86 said:

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Mas89 said:

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Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

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I've got 4 years to go. I plan on flying after retirement, just not getting paid to do so. Mostly to haul my golf clubs around. It would have to be a very easy and lucrative gig to get my attention in retirement.

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Is that an Acclaim Ultra?!

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It's an M20M...

Mas89 said:

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Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

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Nobody at 65 is in perfect health. He can be in very good health for a 65 year old but he does not belong in the cabin of a commercial airliner anymore.

Jetpilot86 said:

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91AggieLawyer said:

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Jetpilot86 said:

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ClickClack said:

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Guys, it's possible that if one engine was having issues that they accidentally cut fuel flow to the wrong engine as that is part of the procedure for shutting down a damaged engine. That is the scenario where the fuel cut off would have been toggled. On the wrong engine, inadvertently.

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You NEVER, NEVER secure an engine at that altitude. Not even if it's on fire. They would be ignoring everything they ever were taught in the simulator to do so.

---

Did they have any simulator training?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but...

No one would have suspected that, in 1979, maintenance for multiple airlines was using forklifts to lift and hold up engines -- including as long as overnight -- for changes that went totally against MD recommendations. (Re: AA191).

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They "should" have.

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Having worked with India and Indians for decades this is not just a small number of "shoulds" - rampant falsifying of information is the norm. One item many overlook is that the captain and FO flight hours were released immediately after the crash. Then a few days later their hours were "corrected" to be significantly greater- not just a small number but 25-40% range.

Also, and I don't want to bash an entire culture, but…, in my experience when Indians are faced with a crisis, panic and totally shutting down is not uncommon, even when supposedly trained.

SirDippinDots said:

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Mas89 said:

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Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

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Nobody at 65 is in perfect health. He can be in very good health for a 65 year old but he does not belong in the cabin of a commercial airliner anymore.

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65 year old American or a 45 year old Indian - who's your choice to pilot the plane? If I'm on it, I know which one I want!

ETA: for the 65 year old, his health and cognitive abilities may be better than many 55 year olds - doctors can help determine this. Also, that's why there are copilots.

evan_aggie said:

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Jetpilot86 said:

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Mas89 said:

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Yeah it's hard for me to understand how these guys forced to retire are not desperately needed to continue working in the industry somewhere. He taught at the training center/ simulator at times during his career but really enjoyed the long flights from Houston to Japan. Now he runs his leaf blower every morning around his house.

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I've got 4 years to go. I plan on flying after retirement, just not getting paid to do so. Mostly to haul my golf clubs around. It would have to be a very easy and lucrative gig to get my attention in retirement.

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Is that an Acclaim Ultra?!

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M20M "Bravo"

SirDippinDots said:

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Mas89 said:

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Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

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Nobody at 65 is in perfect health. He can be in very good health for a 65 year old but he does not belong in the cabin of a commercial airliner anymore.

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I disagree with this. I have been Blessed to have known several high functioning 85 year olds. Medical screening can weed some health issues out and there is a copilot and autopilot functions to support the ole guys.

SirDippinDots said:

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Mas89 said:

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Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

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Nobody at 65 is in perfect health. He can be in very good health for a 65 year old but he does not belong in the cabin of a commercial airliner anymore.

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How old are you?

SirDippinDots said:

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Mas89 said:

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Plenty of recently retired aged 65 plus pilots who still want to fly if the pay was good. My neighbor was just forced out, forced to retire at 65 after 41 years as a pilot and in the 787. He did Not want to retire and is in perfect health.

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Nobody at 65 is in perfect health. He can be in very good health for a 65 year old but he does not belong in the cabin of a commercial airliner anymore.

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To alleviate the pilot shortage here, don't be surprised if we go to 67, or fly until you can't hold a medical anymore, aka "fly til you die". I'm out in July of '29 or maybe the end of that year to get an extra year of pension if they raise it.

Things have changed. For most, the physical and mental decline that used to happen in people's 60s now takes place in the 70s. Put some additional annual health, physical, and mental acuity tests in place, but pilots who pass should be able to fly to 68-70

Being an older guy means you have tons more experience, which is typically considered a good thing. Aggie Al Haynes was 57 when he managed to land an aircraft that had almost no controls in Iowa City, Sully Sullenberger was 58 at the "Miracle on the Hudson".

I can see increasing the retirement age on planes with two person crews, more medical scrutiny on pilots >65, and making sure one crew member is younger if the main guy is >65.

Though you're still more likely to die driving to the airport than on the plane

I spent the last week working alongside a retired Army Colonel just shy of 80. He would physically work most people into the ground, and is sharp as a tack, mentally. I am sure he is not 100% of what he was at 40, but he is in tremendous physical and mental shape. I recognize that many or most people are not.

nortex97 said:

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Anything is possible with Air India but these two pilots were very experienced (pilot had over 8000 hours).

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You should have stopped at "Anything is possible with Air India." That's 8000 "Indian" hours.

I've worked alongside many many Indians for the last 15+ years in Tech... all paid 6 figures, graduate degrees, etc, and let's just say I would not trust any of them. In their culture, anything goes.. bribing police to get out of speeding tickets/violations is the norm, cheating to get into college, cheating in college, you name it. Their reasoning??? There are just so many people and it's just soooo competitive in India you just have to do it to survive. I'm sure many of you have heard this.. they have "school birthdates" and "actual birthdates", that's totally fine with them. Give the school a whatever birthdate you want, to get your child started in school earlier or later.

So when I hear "8000" hours, I say.... Yeah, so?

"reasoning??? There are just so many people and it's just soooo competitive in India you just have to do it to survive"

This is true. When you are a country of 1B people with cities 10, 20, 30M people - if you aren't cheating, scheming, trying to get an advantage, you aren't trying.


I have a lot of friends who are Indian, and I'd defend them like any other, but there are very few I'd ever want to get into business with. It would be horrific and teeth pulling. It's not even about being saavy....it's about how to get ahead of your "partner"

Big Baccala said:

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Preliminary report from flight data to be released on Friday. It is expected to focus on fuel control switches.

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Friday in India (today)? Or Friday in the US?

evan_aggie said:

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"reasoning??? There are just so many people and it's just soooo competitive in India you just have to do it to survive"

This is true. When you are a country of 1B people with cities 10, 20, 30M people - if you aren't cheating, scheming, trying to get an advantage, you aren't trying.


I have a lot of friends who are Indian, and I'd defend them like any other, but there are very few I'd ever want to get into business with. It would be horrific and teeth pulling. It's not even about being saavy....it's about how to get ahead of your "partner"

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With all of the Indians I've worked with it is inevitable to make some good friends. But, it is important to know their definition of friendship. When doing business with them - friend, stranger, or acquaintance - you must be careful because they will give you the feeling everything is going well and you've got a deal made. But, they ALWAYS are having secondary, parallel, or even behind your back planning/discussions. I've had deals made that even are in writing that my Indian counterpart will act like he/she has no idea what you're talking about and then try to proceed to gaslight you into making you think you were not understanding things correctly. I gave up decades ago trying to deal with them unless there is no other way. To us, this sounds like I'm basically accusing them of being unethical. But, to them that's the way their world works and they will say I was naive not doing the same thing.

ETA: lots of ones that go into management and administration are the ones I dislike most because they as you say "try to get ahead" and sometimes they get off on the sport of trying to ruin someone to make themselves feel powerful

Disclaimer - there are always exceptions as I know some that are as honest and ethical as can be.

Tecolote said:

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ETA: lots of ones that go into management and administration are the ones I dislike most because they as you say "try to get ahead" and sometimes they get off on the sport of trying to ruin someone to make themselves feel powerful

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Can confirm.

I see this every day of the week.

I'm halfway looking for a new job and one of the things I'm doing is looking at the Board. Commonwealth CEO - they're going to need to be extra special (I worked with one Kiwi who I'd work for again). If the leadership is from The Subcontinent - forget it.

https://news.sky.com/story/preliminary-report-into-air-india-crash-submitted-to-authorities-but-may-not-be-made-public-13395327

Was thinking early on maybe double bird strike leading to complete loss of both engines but if that were the case would we see smoke or something from the engines?

Prelim report not public. No known safety bulletins out for inspection or process.

JFABNRGR said:

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Prelim report not public. No known safety bulletins out for inspection or process.

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Smells like pilot error...

Or worse….

https://www.wsj.com/business/airlines/air-india-crash-probe-fuel-cut-3a711f39

Quote:

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The investigation into last month's Air India crash is focusing on the actions of the jet's pilots and doesn't so far point to a problem with the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, according to people familiar with U.S. officials' early assessments.

Preliminary findings indicate that switches controlling fuel flow to the jet's two engines were turned off, leading to an apparent loss of thrust shortly after takeoff, the people said. Pilots use the switches to start the jet's engines, shut them down, or reset them in certain emergencies.

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Sounds like the guys implementing SAP for us were also flying that plane

JFABNRGR said:

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Prelim report not public. No known safety bulletins out for inspection or process.

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Yep, the lack of any air worthiness directives is very telling.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Sounds like the guys implementing SAP for us were also flying that plane

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LOL