787-8 Dreamliner crash in India

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Tramp96
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8:08a, 6/12/25
Very ignorant layman question here...

I was surprised to see the landing gear still down. Don't they normally raise the gear immediately after takeoff to reduce drag?

When I watch planes take off from Love Field, that gear is being raised up before they cross Mockingbird.

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Tramp96
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In reply to Rapier108 • 8:09a, 6/12/25
Rapier108 said:
HollywoodBQ said:
This flight looks like it never had a chance. Since there were only Indians, Brits, Portuguese and one Canadian on the flight, I guess the US NTSB won't get involved.
US built aircraft so the NTSB will be heavily involved.

Air Disasters taught me that.
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revvie
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8:10a, 6/12/25
I would be leaning towards maintenance issue or pilot error at this point.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to Rapier108 • 8:11a, 6/12/25
Rapier108 said:
HollywoodBQ said:
This flight looks like it never had a chance. Since there were only Indians, Brits, Portuguese and one Canadian on the flight, I guess the US NTSB won't get involved.
US built aircraft so the NTSB will be heavily involved.
Good point. Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking about the layers of incompetence we'd expect from the Indian equivalent.
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fc2112
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In reply to Tramp96 • 8:11a, 6/12/25
Tramp96 said:
Very ignorant layman question here...

I was surprised to see the landing gear still down. Don't they normally raise the gear immediately after takeoff to reduce drag?

When I watch planes take off from Love Field, that gear is being raised up before they cross Mockingbird.

Normally, yes.

But these pilots appeared to have something else to attend to right after taking off.
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YellAg2004
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8:13a, 6/12/25
Explain it like I'm 5…is the effect of no flaps that the wings aren't "big enough" to create enough lift to keep the plane airborne?

If that's the case, how would it have gotten off the ground as far as it did? Or is the early thought that they must have retracted the flaps immediately after takeoff, leading to the stall?
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The Fife
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In reply to fc2112 • 8:14a, 6/12/25
fc2112 said:
erudite said:
Major parts of the plane are intact from ground footage/video. Looks to be tail end of plane.
That looks more like the aft end of the cowl over the flap actuation system.
No, it is not. I know this type extremely well and that is without a doubt the tail in an upright position.
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CDUB98
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8:14a, 6/12/25
Will be curious to see the cause. Pilot error or system(s) malfunction.

The flaps definitely don't look like they are in take-off position, but it is a far away video.

I really hate flying.
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CDUB98
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In reply to YellAg2004 • 8:17a, 6/12/25
YellAg2004 said:
Explain it like I'm 5…is the effect of no flaps that the wings aren't "big enough" to create enough lift to keep the plane airborne?

If that's the case, how would it have gotten off the ground as far as it did? Or is the early thought that they must have retracted the flaps immediately after takeoff, leading to the stall?
1) Correct. Not enough lift.

2) Great questions which I have no answer. Logic does lead one to believe it cannot get off the ground without flap deployment. We're just going to have to wait for these answers.
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Rapier108
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8:21a, 6/12/25
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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v1rotate92
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8:23a, 6/12/25
I've flown the 787. Amazing aircraft. My close 2nd favorite behind 777. Definitely the tail sticking out of the building. The APU exhaust cone is obvious.
My only guess would be dual engine failure...bad fuel???????? Crazy footage. Perfectly stabilized decent into the neighborhood
Slick
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v1rotate92
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8:29a, 6/12/25
Yes pilots immediately raise the gear on takeoff at first indication of positive climb from rwy. Its muscle memory for pilots. Also this cockpit had 3 pilots so no way they forgot to raise gear. So IF this aircraft never raised the gear on takeoff the problem developed very late on takeoff roll or just after liftoff
Slick
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JFABNRGR
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8:31a, 6/12/25
Sad day for many families.

I would bet most on board had no clue they were crashing.
“You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
- Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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SupermachJM
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In reply to CDUB98 • 8:31a, 6/12/25
Ground Effect. When you're close to a solid surface like the ground you get some increased lift due to the higher air pressure under you since the ground isn't moving out of the way of the air between you and it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(aerodynamics)

Once you get to be higher ground effect drops off and if you don't have sufficient climb speed or lift, you'll drop right back down. That's why when landing you'll see planes flare before they touch down.
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evan_aggie
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8:32a, 6/12/25
I'd hold off on all of the assumptions about flap position. That video is grainy and take-off flaps position is minimal compared to landing config.

V1rotate can confirm, maybe 3-5 degrees for take off at most? On that wing with that video, no one can tell.

Someone told me there was a question about the RAT being deployed (maybe) last second. A dual engine failure seems wild to me if true.

Is it also possible they rotated too soon based on weight/temperature?
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aggieforester05
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In reply to CDUB98 • 8:32a, 6/12/25
CDUB98 said:
YellAg2004 said:
Explain it like I'm 5…is the effect of no flaps that the wings aren't "big enough" to create enough lift to keep the plane airborne?

If that's the case, how would it have gotten off the ground as far as it did? Or is the early thought that they must have retracted the flaps immediately after takeoff, leading to the stall?
1) Correct. Not enough lift.

2) Great questions which I have no answer. Logic does lead one to believe it cannot get off the ground without flap deployment. We're just going to have to wait for these answers.
I would tend to think it would be able to take off and climb without the flaps, but would need to be at a higher speed to takeoff and maintain a more nose down attitude and lower vertical speed to climb. It may be that in a near max gross weight takeoff config it was able to get airborne due to ground lift but then wasn't going fast enough to climb (out of ground effect) and lost too much air speed in an effort to climb, resulting in a stall.
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BonfireNerd04
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8:32a, 6/12/25
Any reports on deaths/injuries in the building it crashed into?
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cheeky
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In reply to Kansas Kid • 8:33a, 6/12/25
Kansas Kid said:
akaggie05 said:
Quote:
How much is 8200 and 1100 hrs for a plane respectively?


8200 is quite a bit. That would fall into the "very experienced" category. 1100 not so much.

In the US, 1,100 hours of flying wouldn't allow you to be a commercial pilot for an airline (with one exception where you need 1,000).

Outside US and Canada, I think you only need 250 hours. This is part of why US airlines are so safe.
Safe? Yes. Rude? Double yes.
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jtmoney03
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8:34a, 6/12/25
Reading that it was very hot and humid, which is not unusual conditions for that area, but with flaps potentially not where they're supposed to be and gear extended still, it could be an inability to get any lift. I concur that it literally looks like the plane was descending for a landing how perfectly stable the plane was as it drifted downwards. Very sad situation.
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Martels Hammer
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8:35a, 6/12/25
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evan_aggie
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In reply to jtmoney03 • 8:36a, 6/12/25
100F.
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Martels Hammer
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8:36a, 6/12/25
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/air-india-boeing-787-8-dreamliner-bound-uk-crashes

Claims in the above that only half the runway was used for takeoff.

Not a pilot so I don't know what that might imply.
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v1rotate92
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8:36a, 6/12/25
Footage is unclear. But it does look like a clean wing with no flaps....Can't see the leading edge slats but the normal takeoff flap settings all require trailing edge flaps. Gear is always retracted immediately...Flap retraction after gear retraction and usually begins 1000-2000' in the climb

I agree with holding off on flap position. The video is too poor to verify the flap position. I was obviously speculating
Slick
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evan_aggie
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In reply to v1rotate92 • 8:38a, 6/12/25
5 degree flap setting for TO. That's not going to be obvious imo.
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5Amp
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8:41a, 6/12/25
Hot day and loaded to maximum weight with fuel, people, and luggage could be as simple as that.

Such a helpless position watching from a window seat as your life comes to a sudden end.
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v1rotate92
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In reply to evan_aggie • 8:42a, 6/12/25
evan_aggie said:
5 degree flap setting for TO. That's not going to be obvious imo.
I agree 100%
Slick
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BonfireNerd04
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In reply to Martels Hammer • 8:43a, 6/12/25
Martels Hammer said:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/air-india-boeing-787-8-dreamliner-bound-uk-crashes

Claims in the above that only half the runway was used for takeoff.

Not a pilot so I don't know what that might imply.
I asked ChatGPT. Disclaimer: It's ChatGPT.

Quote:
Using only half the runway for takeoff is a critical red flag in aviation and could absolutely be a contributingor even primaryfactor in the crash. Here's what that likely means and why it's so dangerous:

What Does "Using Only Half the Runway" Mean?
In a normal takeoff, pilots use as much of the runway as necessary to safely reach V1 (decision speed), Vr (rotation speed), and V2 (takeoff safety speed). These are calculated based on:
  • Aircraft weight
  • Runway length
  • Weather conditions
  • Engine performance
  • Runway slope and surface
If pilots only use half the available runway, that means they began their takeoff roll farther down the runway than normalleaving themselves with far less room to reach takeoff speed and lift off safely.

Why This Is Dangerous
[ol]
  • Insufficient Acceleration Distance: The aircraft might not reach the necessary speed in time for a safe liftoff.
  • High Risk of Stall: Taking off at too low a speed or with an improper angle of attack (because the pilots are "forcing it into the air") could cause the aircraft to stall shortly after takeoffespecially dangerous when close to the ground.
  • No Room for Abort: A shorter runway takeoff reduces or eliminates the pilots' ability to abort the takeoff if something goes wrong before V1.
  • Obstacle Clearance: Even if the plane does get airborne, it might not clear nearby obstaclessuch as buildings, trees, or power linesespecially if fully loaded (as this plane was, with 242 people).
    • [/ol]
    Possible Reasons Why This Could Happen
    If the pilots really did use only half the runway, investigators will likely explore several possible causes:
    • Pilot error (e.g., misjudging the correct taxiway or takeoff position)
    • Air traffic control miscommunication
    • Incorrect pre-takeoff checklist procedures
    • Fatigue or distraction
    • Mechanical error or instrument malfunction leading pilots to believe they were at the right position
    • Time pressure or scheduling stress
    In extremely rare and tragic cases, pilots have started their takeoff from a taxiway or a mid-runway intersection by mistake.

    What Comes Next
    The Indian Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), and likely Boeing and international investigators, will focus heavily on:
    • Flight Data Recorder (FDR): To see throttle, speed, flap settings, and takeoff roll distance.
    • Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR): To catch any last-minute confusion or alarms.
    • ATC recordings: To confirm the assigned takeoff clearance and location.

    Would you like a visual explanation or diagram to show how much difference this can make in a takeoff roll? Or a simplified example with real-world numbers?

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    Saxsoon
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    In reply to Rapier108 • 8:45a, 6/12/25
    Rapier108 said:
    P.U.T.U said:
    YouBet said:
    The hits keep coming for Boeing. Damn.
    They also have the most aircraft is service but yes it does seem lately they have had more issue than Airbus who has close to the same
    The media doesn't give Airbus the same anal probing it does anytime one of their planes so much as farts.

    If a Boeing built aircraft has the slightest issue, it is front page news, with the headline usually saying "Boeing plane".


    My favorite is when it is an airbus the headline just says air plane
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    Tramp96
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    8:47a, 6/12/25
    I knew the altitude of an airport had a big effect on takeoffs (my uncle often talked about how long it took the business jet he piloted to take off from Denver, Albuquerque, etc), but I didn't know until today that planes needed longer takeoffs on a hot day compared to a colder day.

    Learn something new every day.
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    HollywoodBQ
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    In reply to BonfireNerd04 • 8:48a, 6/12/25
    BonfireNerd04 said:
    Any reports on deaths/injuries in the building it crashed into?
    Reddit has some video of the fire and ambulance crews responding.

    I strongly recommend NOT looking at it.
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    flown-the-coop
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    In reply to The Fife • 8:48a, 6/12/25
    The Fife said:
    fc2112 said:
    erudite said:
    Major parts of the plane are intact from ground footage/video. Looks to be tail end of plane.
    That looks more like the aft end of the cowl over the flap actuation system.
    No, it is not. I know this type extremely well and that is without a doubt the tail in an upright position.


    You are correct. Looks also like part of landing gear.


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    fc2112
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    8:50a, 6/12/25
    Yeah, that's a better pic. I never worked 787 other than some material properties development early on.
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    erudite
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    In reply to evan_aggie • 8:50a, 6/12/25
    evan_aggie said:
    I'd hold off on all of the assumptions about flap position. That video is grainy and take-off flaps position is minimal compared to landing config.

    V1rotate can confirm, maybe 3-5 degrees for take off at most? On that wing with that video, no one can tell.

    Someone told me there was a question about the RAT being deployed (maybe) last second. A dual engine failure seems wild to me if true.

    Is it also possible they rotated too soon based on weight/temperature?
    Might be true. In the phone video you don't hear either of the engines like on regular takeoff.

    FYI here's a soundbyte on what the RAT sounds like.
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    Rapier108
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    In reply to Saxsoon • 8:51a, 6/12/25
    Saxsoon said:
    Rapier108 said:
    P.U.T.U said:
    YouBet said:
    The hits keep coming for Boeing. Damn.
    They also have the most aircraft is service but yes it does seem lately they have had more issue than Airbus who has close to the same
    The media doesn't give Airbus the same anal probing it does anytime one of their planes so much as farts.

    If a Boeing built aircraft has the slightest issue, it is front page news, with the headline usually saying "Boeing plane".


    My favorite is when it is an airbus the headline just says air plane
    And often doesn't even mention Airbus, and/or the model of aircraft in the article itself.
    "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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    TacosaurusRex
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    In reply to Tramp96 • 8:53a, 6/12/25
    Tramp96 said:
    Rapier108 said:
    HollywoodBQ said:
    This flight looks like it never had a chance. Since there were only Indians, Brits, Portuguese and one Canadian on the flight, I guess the US NTSB won't get involved.
    US built aircraft so the NTSB will be heavily involved.

    Air Disasters taught me that.
    I was about to comment the same thing. I have never missed an episode, and at this point I am pretty sure they could send me to some third world countries and I would do a better job than whomever they have lead the investigation.
    "If you are reading this, I have passed on from this world — not as big a deal for you as it was for me."
    T. Boone Pickens
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