What if it wasn't bad fuel so much as the wrong fuel type? I am guessing the turbines have significant flexibility but make different power with different fuel types, but that also most fuel used at an airport operating jets is of the correct type, ie there's not a mix of av gas and jet fuels in one area.

Vapor lock?

He talks about the plane being on the tarmac for 2-3 hours before take off? I had not seen that discussed or mentioned any other place? Rumor or true?

Air India 315 (787 Dreamliner) gets to 22k ft and asks to turnaround because of a technical issue.

Left from Hong Kong en route to India.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/india/air-india-dreamliner-returns-hong-kong-technical-issue-rcna213205

They taxied out with both engines running normally so I would not think bad fuel was the problem.

And both engines losing power immediately at exactly the same time would not point to bad fuel.


But, as usual, I've been wrong before…

Aggie95 said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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Simultaneous duel engine failure would be an external factors or systems issue (fuel, controls). There's statistically no way that both engines simply 'failed' at the same time. Assuming that both engines failed to produce sufficient thrust at the same time, the cause behind that would be something else (e.g. BA 777 at Heathrow (fuel issue - likely ice), the Miracle on the Hudson (bird strike), etc.).

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wouldn't other aircraft had issues that day or week if it were an issue of bad (contaminated) fuel?

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It would seem that way, but that could bring the tin foil hat conspiracy ideas back into the realm of possibility if the outgoing base ops crew from the Turkish contractor spiked one load of fuel in a specific truck that fueled that plane. But that just seems very unlikely to me. I am still thinking fuel issue, but more along the lines of the vapor lock theory or some mixing issue with fuel that was already in the plane or something like that.

Cathay Pacific 780 comes to mind. Fuel was contaminated by filter particles which were released due to salt water contamination. The filter particles damaged the fuel metering valves on both engines.

F2Aggie said:

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Air India 315 (787 Dreamliner) gets to 22k ft and asks to turnaround because of a technical issue.

Left from Hong Kong en route to India.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/india/air-india-dreamliner-returns-hong-kong-technical-issue-rcna213205

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Without know what the issue was, most likely completely unreleased to the crash.

Things fail/break/malfunction; but aircraft are designed to continue to operate normally, or at the very least, make a safe landing.

Sometimes it is not even an equipment failure, but a bad sensor. If the crew can't confirm it is a bad sensor, they'll assume the worst and land as soon as possible.

Last time I flew we had a 3 hour delay because when the plane arrived on its previous flight, they thought the noise gear wasn't locked. Had a full emergency response waiting just in case. It was locked, but the sensor telling them it was had failed. Maintenance had to replace the sensor and then had to completely check over the landing gear just to be sure.

Southlake said:

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They taxied out with both engines running normally so I would not think bad fuel was the problem.

And both engines losing power immediately at exactly the same time would not point to bad fuel.


But, as usual, I've been wrong before…

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Obviously we're all speculating and that's fine! That's what a bunch of high paid YouTubers are doing

Just because the engines started and taxied does not eliminate contaminated fuel.
This is a true enigma made worse by the unknown abilities of the low time pilot in FO seat.

I've never experienced bad fuel except in My F350 Diesel power stroke and agree it's incredibly unlikely but so is every other
explanation

F2Aggie said:

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Air India 315 (787 Dreamliner) gets to 22k ft and asks to turnaround because of a technical issue.

Left from Hong Kong en route to India.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/india/air-india-dreamliner-returns-hong-kong-technical-issue-rcna213205

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Boeing offers a plan called Aircraft Health Management (AHM) as an option when buying their planes. It sends real time information of systems operating on the aircraft to the airline's Maintenance Control. It helps in troubleshooting problems, usually before it becomes a bigger issue. Also gives the ability of the Planning department to schedule labor and materials to accomplish pre-emptive repairs.

If AI subscribed to this service, it will yield a bunch of good information about the operations of critical systems during the accident. This could also be the reason why they turned back AI flight 315 as mentioned above.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

Vapor lock???

Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

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False information from a fake initial report.

Naive question here.

Do aircraft like this have any type of fuel sensors that would detect impurities?

coconutED said:

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Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

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False information from a fake initial report.

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How do they know it is false? Probably unlikely, but can you really rule anything out now?

Or, are you alleging this is impossible? I might buy that. I'll check with a buddy who schedules flight training in sims. I don't know if they build the actual hard elements in there to exact specs but his pilots would know.

91AggieLawyer said:

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coconutED said:

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Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

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False information from a fake initial report.

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How do they know it is false? Probably unlikely, but can you really rule anything out now?

Or, are you alleging this is impossible? I might buy that. I'll check with a buddy who schedules flight training in sims. I don't know if they build the actual hard elements in there to exact specs but his pilots would know.

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The Indian AAIB has not put out any kind of initial report, which is what this hoax claims to be from.

In fact the AAIB, NTSB, Boeing, the UK's AAIB, GE, etc. just had their first full on meeting today.

Well for one there are reports the PM (Pilot monitoring) called a Mayday and reported loss of power
We don't see an aggressive nose up attitude in the videos
You can hear the RAT in the video posted by the kid filming from his family patio.
This video was originally published by someone filming it play on his device or another screen but the original is now out with clear audio. The RAT sounds like an old Radial going past.

coconutED said:

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Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

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False information from a fake initial report.

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The flight profile doesn't match either.

My guess as an armchair aviation enthusiast with 10000+ hours in MS Combat Flight Simulator 3:

1.Heavy fuel load for long flight
2. Half runway takeoff roll
3. Copilot accidentally raises flaps instead of gear at liftoff instantly dropping lift and reducing capacity to accelerate
4. Pilot realized too late and the aircraft had descending momentum he couldn't just power out of.
4.

91AggieLawyer said:

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How do they know it is false? Probably unlikely, but can you really rule anything out now?

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There is an alleged report circulating the interwebs which lists that scenario as the probable cause:

Quote:

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Findings from AAIB Preliminary Report

1. **Root Cause Identified**:

- **Unintended thrust reduction** triggered by the **captain's seat sliding backward** during rotation (liftoff).

- The seat's **AFT lock mechanism failed**, causing sudden rearward movement. The captain's body weight forcibly pulled the thrust levers to idle.

- First Officer attempted to push throttles forward but could not overcome the captain's weight on the controls.

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There is no such report or finding listed on the Indian Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau Website. It's fake. Further, the scenario implies a level of basic airmanship, and CRM (and common sense) so deficient as to border on absurdity, even for a third world aircrew.

agwrestler said:

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1.Heavy fuel load for long flight

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check

Quote:

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2. Half runway takeoff roll

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debunked; they back-taxied and used the full length

Quote:

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3. Copilot accidentally raises flaps instead of gear at liftoff instantly dropping lift and reducing capacity to accelerate

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Optical illusion. Wreckage confirms flaps were extended:

Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane..

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I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but this smells like BS.

It assumes anyone has listened to ATC tapes
It assumes that anyone has listened to CVR or Data recordings
It assumes that someone has examined the wreckage
It assumes enough is left of the cockpit to make that assumption
It assumes that the seat would move that much
It assumes that the pilot would yank the controls and not let go
It assumes the seat broke on the guy currently flying

Most of all, it assumes the seat is a manual seat on a sliding track like a '65 Chevy.

Never been in the cockpit of a modern airliner, but my guess is that they are electric seats, moved by electric motors, and would not "break a pin" and suddenly slide backwards

HollywoodBQ said:

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amg405 said:

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scd88 said:

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canadiaggie said:

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scd88 said:

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91AggieLawyer said:

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I know companies buy planes on the secondary market, although it seems unlikely a 787 would have made it there by now. But how long before Boeing stops taking orders from crappy airliners they know won't maintain their planes? Is the profit per plane really worth the defense costs exposure when they crash, even if Boeing is never found liable for anything?

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Air India has indeed been acquiring planes on the secondary market to boost their fleet. They have been privatized and are looking to improve their reliability and experience.

I'm Indian, my parents moved from Gujurat (the state where Ahmedabad is located) to Houston in 1964. We have considered Air India in the past but their routes have not been favorable for those who fly from Houston.

This last time my family and I went ( Christmas 2024) we booked via United and flew a combination of United, Air Canada, and Lufthansa. Never have an issue with the airports in India. Delhi and Mumbai are pretty nice.

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For Houston - at least as someone of Pakistani origin - the Gulf Arab airlines and Turkish are usually best options.

Air India seems decent. I'd rather die than step on a PIA flight, but that is essentially synonymous.

My family is also originally from Gujarat, btw. Near the Patan/Sidhpur region.

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My next trip there I really want to experience Qatar or Emirates business class.

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Last trip to Abu Dhabi and Dubai we did one of each of those airlines. They were both unreal with unbelievable lounges. The Qatar flight overseas was the nicest first class I've ever been on…. Compared to Delta, American, British, and Air France

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Couldn't help but notice Qatar was the only Asian airline on your list.

The Asians get it.

First on American is just a bigger seat and some pajamas.

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No doubt. Qatar and Emirates are by far the best and the service is out of this world.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane..

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I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but this smells like BS.

It assumes anyone has listened to ATC tapes
It assumes that anyone has listened to CVR or Data recordings
It assumes that someone has examined the wreckage
It assumes enough is left of the cockpit to make that assumption
It assumes that the seat would move that much
It assumes that the pilot would yank the controls and not let go
It assumes the seat broke on the guy currently flying

Most of all, it assumes the seat is a manual seat on a sliding track like a '65 Chevy.

Never been in the cockpit of a modern airliner, but my guess is that they are electric seats, moved by electric motors, and would not "break a pin" and suddenly slide backwards

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Why would RAT deploy because throttles rolled back?

Good point, when his '65 Chevy seat failed, he would have had to have grabbed the control column AND both throttles

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Well for one there are reports the PM (Pilot monitoring) called a Mayday and reported loss of power
We don't see an aggressive nose up attitude in the videos
You can hear the RAT in the video posted by the kid filming from his family patio.
This video was originally published by someone filming it play on his device or another screen but the original is now out with clear audio. The RAT sounds like an old Radial going past.

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More importantly to me in that video is that you can hear the RAT instead of jet engines at 80-100% takeoff throttle. The lack of jet engine sounds on that video has me convinced they lost both engines somehow.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Good point, when his '65 Chevy seat failed, he would have had to have grabbed the control column AND both throttles

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Well they can fail when a heavy, does 5000'+ a min climbout on takeoff.

JFABNRGR said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Good point, when his '65 Chevy seat failed, he would have had to have grabbed the control column AND both throttles

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Well they can fail when a heavy, does 5000'+ a min climbout on takeoff.

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That heavy was in flight nearly a minute and never got more than about 400' off the ground.

JFABNRGR said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Good point, when his '65 Chevy seat failed, he would have had to have grabbed the control column AND both throttles

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Well they can fail when a heavy, does 5000'+ a min climbout on takeoff.

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Widebodies fully loaded aren't doing anywhere near 5000 ft/min climb on takeoff. Half that would be a pretty top level rate of climb at takeoff.

Tecolote said:

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JFABNRGR said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Good point, when his '65 Chevy seat failed, he would have had to have grabbed the control column AND both throttles

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Well they can fail when a heavy, does 5000'+ a min climbout on takeoff.

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Widebodies fully loaded aren't doing anywhere near 5000 ft/min climb on takeoff. Half that would be a pretty top level rate of climb at takeoff.

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Which is exactly why I hopped on CanyonAg77 sarcasm piece with the 65 chevy comment.

Possibility of the pilots inputting the wrong information into the computer?
Weight
Altitude
Temperature
Reading the chart wrong?

Both pilots were based /lived in that area?

Pilot intentionally cut off the fuel?

Rapier108 said:

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91AggieLawyer said:

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coconutED said:

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Ragoo said:

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Not sure if this has been mentioned but my pilot neighbor said the captains chair pin snapped causing the captain to slide back away from the controls and stall the plane. In the US the co-pilot would have immediately taken over but not so in this case.

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False information from a fake initial report.

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How do they know it is false? Probably unlikely, but can you really rule anything out now?

Or, are you alleging this is impossible? I might buy that. I'll check with a buddy who schedules flight training in sims. I don't know if they build the actual hard elements in there to exact specs but his pilots would know.

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The Indian AAIB has not put out any kind of initial report, which is what this hoax claims to be from.

In fact the AAIB, NTSB, Boeing, the UK's AAIB, GE, etc. just had their first full on meeting today.

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I got it. I misunderstood your using of the word, report. Thought maybe it was just a YT video or something.

I think we're going to learn the airplane suffered from a major electrical failure during rotation that caused a full loss of system controls hence the engines losing thrust and causing the RAT to deploy. There likely wasn't anything wrong with the engines other than they lost the electronic signal to be at full power and unfortunately altitude was not in their favor.

In my mind a power generator grounded out or something which then knocked out the second generator and the engines didn't die per se but possibly went to idle? This would also explain the sole survivor saying the engines were spooling up right before impact; the RAT had started supplying power again and the computer rebooted but it was too late.

It leads one to ask what is the "fail" state of the throttle on these big birds? I'm pretty sure most single engine planes if their throttle cable breaks they "fail" to wide open which would at least keep you in the air or climbing. Should there be a similar feature on these big jets that maybe on takeoff once they reach V1 the engines auto throttle to max power for a set time in the event of a power failure?

I'm just not on board with bad fuel, loose seat, bird strike, no flaps. I think this is going to come out as an electrical failure at the absolute worst time. For some reason I'm also thinking that Boeing had an issue years back with their wiring harnesses but I could be wrong.

There are a few fake reports coming out with future dates. Be wary if anything not official.

AgAcGuy12 said:

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I think we're going to learn the airplane suffered from a major electrical failure during rotation that caused a full loss of system controls hence the engines losing thrust

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An electrical failure would not shut down the engines. The Full Authority Digital Engine Controls are independent of the electrical system. There are two for each engine. In order for both engines to lose thrust at the same time, all four FADEC channels would have to fail simultaneously.

i think you guys are disregarding one of the more obvious possibilities.

the RAT can be deployed manually. if there was a serious hydraulic and/or electric failure (perhaps not to the level to automatically drop the RAT), that perhaps impeded the pilot's ability to control the plane or engines. so they drop the RAT to try and bring something back but at such a low altitude there is not much time to get under control again.

i recall reading previously on this thread that the pilot's report of loss of thrust was made up. he only called mayday

ETA: these were the other RAT triggers i posted earlier

Loss of all engines
Both engines are at less than minimum idle RPM (Revolutions Per Minute)
Loss of all hydraulic power - left, right, and center systems detect low pressure
Loss of all electrical power
BPCU (Bus Power Control Unit) detects loss of power to C1 and C2 TRU (Transformer Rectifier Unit)s
On approach, loss of all four EMP (Electric Motor Pump) hydraulic pressures and loss of either the left or right flight controls ACE (Actuator Control Electronics)
Rotor burst on takeoff that causes loss of both PECS (Power Electronics Cooling System) primary cooling loops.

Agree sts - I think we are going to see that the pilots reacted incorrectly (and irreversibly) to some sort of a failure.