Guppy said:

---

Also as a follow up to the theory on they failed to set the flaps to the proper configuration for take off. Just spoke to a retired check airman who flew the plane and has been to Delhi numerous times.

It was their opinion that an incorrect flap configuration on a 787 would not have been the result of the crash.

Their reasoning behind it was the fact the 787 has so much power and the runway in Delhi is around 12,000 ft long that the plane still would have been able to take off and then, due to the very high take off speed, would have been climbing like a bat outta ….

He also thought that it was the failure of the auto throttles in some form or fashion. Not trying to validate myself, just wanted to share the thoughts of a pilot who has flown the plane.

---

Aircraft took off from Ahemdabad, not as long a runway

Well Delhi's about 600 miles away from where this plane took off so not sure why that runway length is relevant.

My mistake. I thought it was Delhi.

Ahmedabad Airport runway is 11,500 per wiki

So despite discussing wrong airport the comments above stand.

I keep seeing this 600' # thrown around, but is that altitude above the ground or elevation above sea level? Based on that video, I would be surprised if they ever got to 400', much less 600' altitude. I can see the crew not wanting to drop the nose if they were under 400 and struggling to even get there. But stalls are kind of unforgiving and don't care about what your other concerns are.

so they had to have flaps at an angle to lift off, but flaps are at 0 in the pic per the discussion. would power outage cause 0 flaps like folks are seeing?

siap

txags92 said:

---

I keep seeing this 600' # thrown around, but is that altitude above the ground or elevation above sea level? Based on that video, I would be surprised if they ever got to 400', much less 600' altitude. I can see the crew not wanting to drop the nose if they were under 400 and struggling to even get there. But stalls are kind of unforgiving and don't care about what your other concerns are.

---

Looks like the Ahmedabad airport is about 189' so 600' would be 400' AGL

The Fife said:

---

Jealous, the only 747s I'm around now are the Dreamlifters.

---

I love watching for the Dreamlifter when flying in/out of the Chubu Centrair airport.

And they have 787 serial #1 as a museum piece at that airport that is worth a quick look around

I'd imagine the flaps were set to 5. It's hard to see from a distance.

Normally the flaps are set prior to taxi as per the after start checklist or the Taxi Checklist.

If the flaps are not set for take off, there will be no green "Take Off Light" illuminated and the crew will receive an aurl warning.

My first question is with an 11500 runway, why only use 6k? Not sureI know any pilot who wouldn't use the whole runway.

Southlake said:

---

My first question is with an 11500 runway, why only use 6k? Not sureI know any pilot who wouldn't use the whole runway.

---

Could be human error. Turned on the wrong taxiway and then just took off as soon as he turned onto the runway.

Realized he was about to run out of runway, but was already past V1, and decided to take his chance in the sky rather than slam on the brakes.

This is assuming there wasn't something else going on like an engine failure.

I've seen smaller aircraft start their takeoff further down runways, but we're talking regional jets or business jets. Only time I've ever seen a heavy do it was a 747 cargo plane and he lifted off very quickly so was likely going home empty.

annie88 said:

---

That's awful. I guess there were a lot of casualties on the ground as well?

They weren't far off the ground. I guess he just couldn't get the nose up enough to land?

---

Go read the story of Olympic 411. Lost an engine on takeoff in Athens. Skimmed several rooftops, missed a hill by nine feet. Never got above 209 feet as they avoided disaster of crashing in downtown Athens.

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but many of the pilots on here have poor understanding of airplanes and need to refer to the company manual before answering.

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

Not me. Every plane I get on is just another plane. Pretty much the same way I feel about cars, phones, computers, and banks.

So the British media is continually insinuating Boeing is somehow at fault, often pivoting to the 737MAX issues, which of course have nothing whatsoever to do with the 787.

747Ag said:

---

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

---

Username checks out.

I would listen to the design / build folks of a particular plane (or class thereof) before a pilot rated on C-40s who then flew for SWA for 10 years advising us on the operations of an A-380.

Especially now, these planes are all so complex, unique.

I trust the guys who design, build houses over homeowners 9 times out of 10.

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

747Ag and JetPilot86 names didn't tip you off?

which media? I don't see any of that on BBC

flown-the-coop said:

---

747Ag said:

---

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

---

Username checks out.

I would listen to the design / build folks of a particular plane (or class thereof) before a pilot rated on C-40s who then flew for SWA for 10 years advising us on the operations of an A-380.

Especially now, these planes are all so complex, unique.

I trust the guys who design, build houses over homeowners 9 times out of 10.

---

I work military designs now. Did a stint after Boeing and before my current gig working aircraft mods. All electrical power systems. Just not going to change my username based on project changes... 747 was my first "love" and so it stays.

sts7049 said:

---

which media? I don't see any of that on BBC

---

Sky News was doing it a lot this morning. BBC had a couple of "experts" on earlier today who did the same thing.

Guppy said:

---

Not sure it's been discussed but what if they failed to arm the Auto Throttles for Take Off???

Pilots goes to set Take Off Power and clicks the TO/GA button to activate the Auto Throttles. However, due to human error or possible MEL the Auto Throttles are either not activated or failed. The flight crew fails to catch the error of a reduced take off thrust setting via a cross check by the pilot monitoring.

Could explain the dust plum at the end of the runway due to the aircraft needing so much more additional runway in order to take off.

The pilots then struggle to get the aircraft in the air and fail to notice a lower than normal N1 or falsely assume the auto throttles are working. Combine this with complacency and with a fear of taking over and manually pushing the thrust levers forward….. well there's a theory

Also, I failed to notice the aircraft change its AOA…. Not sure why if they thought they were about to stall they didn't try to lower the nose….

---

They were probably too busy trying to diagnose/manage the failure/systems that they forgot to fly the airplane. There was a brief window where they might have prevented a stall with a little forward pressure on the yoke, but once the airspeed dropped too much and they began to sink it was too late and too low to recover. This is assuming single engine. Both engines they would have just crashed a little further from the airport.

747Ag said:

---

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

---

"Design" as in architect??? I've worked on a lot of projects where I'd personally throw the architect off the building if they showed up at the site.

If it isn't obvious I know nothing about planes other than to stumble from the Admiral's club to my seat "lubricated."

Southlake said:

---

I'd imagine the flaps were set to 5. It's hard to see from a distance.

Normally the flaps are set prior to taxi as per the after start checklist or the Taxi Checklist.

If the flaps are not set for take off, there will be no green "Take Off Light" illuminated and the crew will receive an aurl warning.

My first question is with an 11500 runway, why only use 6k? Not sureI know any pilot who wouldn't use the whole runway.

---

I haven't had time to keep up with the details this morning.

Has it been confirmed they only used half the runway? I'd assumed that was just erroneous ADSB data

IronRed13 said:

---

The Fife said:

---

Jealous, the only 747s I'm around now are the Dreamlifters.

---

I love watching for the Dreamlifter when flying in/out of the Chubu Centrair airport.

And they have 787 serial #1 as a museum piece at that airport that is worth a quick look around

---

Watching the aft section of the plane swing out to load and unload things is pretty cool, and amazing how they were able to design it without the 'door' needing a pogo stick for support while open.

I'd love to see LN 1 again! Watching it come in and land in person at BFI for first flight and then come on over to all of us at the waiting area is something I'll never forget. Likewise with the 747-8 but there was a lot less fanfare with that one on our end. When we had the second one turned over it was the program director and maybe 5 of us waiting for it.

erudite said:

---

Aggie Jurist said:

---

Agree, certainly looks like flaps 0.

Early ADS-B data seems to just stop abruptly at 600 feet during initial climb. Total electrical failure? Wouldn't impact the flaps of course. Video may be misleading.

---

Indian DGCA (think FAA) said mayday call went out but they lost contact post transmission.

Quote:

---

"As per ATC, the aircraft departed from Ahmedabad at 1339 IST (0809 UTC) from Runway 23. It gave a MAYDAY call to ATC, but thereafter no response was given by the aircraft to the calls made by ATC. The aircraft, immediately after departure from Runway 23, fell on the ground outside the airport perimeter. Heavy black smoke was seen coming from the accident site," the DGCA said in its preliminary statement.

---

Quote:

---

The aircraft was under the command of Capt Sumeet Sabharwal with First Officer Clive Kundar. Capt Sumeet Sabharwal is a LTC with 8200 Hrs of experience. The copilot had 1100Hrs of flying experience."

---

How much is 8200 and 1100 hrs for a plane respectively?

---

9300

Where are the black boxes located in this plane? Would they have survived this type of crash?

They should have survived the crash yes. Nothing's ever 100%.

Champion of Fireball said:

---

747Ag said:

---

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

---

"Design" as in architect??? I've worked on a lot of projects where I'd personally throw the architect off the building if they showed up at the site.

If it isn't obvious I know nothing about planes other than to stumble from the Admiral's club to my seat "lubricated."

---

Boeing was manufacturing-centric. Did update the 747-400 to 747-8, so some design.
Last job was aircraft mods.
Current role is clean-sheet design. Physics is fun.

AtticusMatlock said:

---

Where are the black boxes located in this plane? Would they have survived this type of crash?

---

Easily, in the tail.

AtticusMatlock said:

---

Where are the black boxes located in this plane? Would they have survived this type of crash?

---

Tail like in most aircraft.

And yes, they should have survived the crash. They're designed to take massive damage and still be readable.

I've flown in and out of this airport a few times. It's surprisingly small as far as the terminal goes; only 8 or so gates, but all configured for heavy's. The fare to fly there is much more expensive than going in and out of Mumbai or Delhi.

A newer, larger airport is being built several miles to the north of this one. As you have seen, this one is in the middle of the city.

All that to say, I've never heard of any issues as it relates to the airport itself and the logistics related to runways, ATC, etc.

According to my dad, who spends half the year in nearby Vadodara where he grew up in the same state of Gujurat, is convinced it was "sabotage." Both engines failed.

He made an interesting point that the ground crew is Turkish because of a contract deal. Also anecdotally, a couple of Air India flights have recently been diverted or sent back to their airport of origin because of Pakistani threats.

The initial reports of the aircraft only using part of the runway was based on faulty ADS-B data. FlightRadar24 confirmed that the plane used the entire runway.

To help minimize some of the speculation surrounding this here is….

Anatomy of a takeoff:

Minor variations between airlines and airplanes.

Line up on the runway, turn on all the lights and pre-spool the engines to about 40-70% N1 (front fan section) and make sure they all stabilize before setting the Takeoff Thrust of the day. Takeoff Thrust may be a low as 75% of full Thrust to lower wear and tear on the engines, Full Power is always available for emergencies/wind shear, etc.

PF, Pilot Flying, hits TOGA & calls TO thrust, and the PM, Pilot Monitoring, announces when it is set and producing the target thrust for the flight, drawn from the performance.

Next, at 80-100k the PM will call 80k and the PF will confirm his reads that as well. Below that 100kts, reject for any alerts from the panel, above 100kts, the alerts are only for nasty stuff like fires, loss of an engine, etc.

V1 is the critical speed. It's not where you takeoff, it's where the go/no go decision is made. This speed is roughly the midpoint of the runway and is supposed to guarantee you can lose an engine, reject, and still stop on the runway. Above this speed you are committed to going flying and solving any problems once you get 1000' above the airport (AGL). I have seen spreads as high as 15-20kts, between V1 and Vr (rotation speed).

Between V1 and 1000' you do nothing but takeoff, raise the gear between 50-100' AGL depending on if you have problems or don't, fly straight ahead and climb to 1000', You don't deal with anything, including an engine fire, before you have altitude to work with. There are a few minor variations on this. The target speed for the initial climb is at a speed known as V2 up to V2+10 knots, for optimum climb rate, below that and it may harder to climb or maintain control.

The question is why they didn't get to 1000'. Even at the reduced power for takeoff, the airplane will meet the required performance if an engine is lost at that weight and get there. Odds are it will fall to pilot error.

Understand however, that this maneuver is something that is beat to death in initial training, and is practiced every single time we come in for training, in my airlines case, every 6 months.

747Ag said:

---

Champion of Fireball said:

---

Is everyone a pilot on Texags????

---

No, but some of us just design/build them.

---

And every semester, one fourth of those graduating finish in the bottom 25% of their class.