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Let's be honest...anything we post, you'll just discredit the source and claim conspiracy to scare people from the vax or something. Ignoring the fact that those on your side have lied and been wrong over and over and over again. WAY more than they've been right.

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Easy to explain Zobel. He's vaccinated, emotionally invested, and wants all of us to be wrong.

American Idol contestant CJ Harris dies at age 31: The singer suffered an 'apparent heart attack' | Daily Mail Online

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American Idol contestant CJ Harris died at the age of 31 on Sunday.

The artist seemed to suffer a heart attack and was taken by ambulance to a local hospital in his hometown of Jasper, Alabama. Shortly after arriving in the emergency room the crooner - whose full name is Curtis 'CJ' Harris - was pronounced dead, according to a Monday report from TMZ.

The singer performed on the reality TV show in 2014, making it to the top six. He subsequently struck up a friendship with Darius Rucker who became his mentor

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how come you can't have a discussion without making things personal?

it's just as easily said that you're emotionally invested and want me to be wrong. i'm not the one using terms like pureblood or doing things like running here to post about a 16 year old girl who died from a congenital heart defect to try to dunk on people.

Zobel said:

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how come you can't have a discussion without making things personal?

it's just as easily said that you're emotionally invested and want me to be wrong. i'm not the one using terms like pureblood or doing things like running here to post about a 16 year old girl who died from a congenital heart defect to try to dunk on people.

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Just think there is a different reason to be emotionally invested if you took the vaccine. I would certainly be concerned had I taken it (and nearly did). My concern now is for my friends and family members who did.

How can you not be concerned when so much of what your president, MSM, CDC, FDA, etc was absolutely wrong in hindsight. All the while there were plenty of doctors and cardiologists warning you otherwise.

There were many who were forced to choose between their careers or the vaccine. Meanwhile we now know that the vaccines do have adverse effects on some and knew it then. Studies were doctored to fit their narrative. The vaccine injured were ignored or mocked. Ivermectin was prescribed to many and was effective. Masks didn't work. Then they did. Then they didn't. And Big Pharma and politicians made millions.

So I guess I am emotionally involved as we. But at least my life isn't at stake.

again with the personal. i voted for president trump. i've never voted for a democrat in my life.

this is a strange kind of appeal to authority - "plenty" of doctors and cardiologists on one side, every other doctor and cardiologist in the world on the other. i'm not concerned because i'm not basing my opinion on the vaccine in what politicians say. i'm basing it on the hundreds of studies that have been done globally, many of which i have personally read.

there's a massive bias in the required quality of evidence accepted here. twitter posts with no support that are posted and accepted uncritically, and large studies in high impact factor journals are dismissed arbitrarily. that's emotion. assuming anyone who disagrees with you is a liberal who voted for president biden is emotion.

Vax preachers active again today! Not surprised.

Zobel said:

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again with the personal. i voted for president trump. i've never voted for a democrat in my life.

this is a strange kind of appeal to authority - "plenty" of doctors and cardiologists on one side, every other doctor and cardiologist in the world on the other. i'm not concerned because i'm not basing my opinion on the vaccine in what politicians say. i'm basing it on the hundreds of studies that have been done globally, many of which i have personally read.

there's a massive bias in the required quality of evidence accepted here. twitter posts with no support that are posted and accepted uncritically, and large studies in high impact factor journals are dismissed arbitrarily. that's emotion. assuming anyone who disagrees with you is a liberal who voted for president biden is emotion.

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Do you give any credence to the vaccine injured who gathered at Ron Johnson's panel? Did you listen to their stories? Are they all made up?

Sorry man, I don't know anything about it.

https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html

Try giving it a listen. Listen to their stories. Personal testimonies. Fast forward past Johnson if you don't care to listen to him. The 44 minute mark is a good start.

i admire your persistence but nobody is changing anybody's mind about the vax at this point. you have to see that by now. So, it seems the only one you are trying to convince is yourself.

i tried but the link won't let me fast forward.

Lots of recents studies which now show highly elevated risks of myocarditis for young males who get vaccinated/boosted and greatly increased risks of clotting for over 65 vaccinated/boosted.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202208.0151/v1

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-2198233/v1/0cd718de-866e-4824-a2cf-9d7f37c63cfc.pdf?c=1666970106


https://www.unibas.ch/en/News-Events/News/Uni-Research/Temporary-mild-damage-to-heart-muscle-cells-after-Covid-19-booster-vaccination.html

Increased Clot Risk

These risks were understated in the Phase III trials. There is definitely a mechanism at work by which spike protein leads to myocarditis and clotting. So the Phase III trials clearly undercounted vaccine risk.

AND

The vaccine trials overestimated vaccine efficacy in preventing SARS-CoV-2. You will no longer hear "the vaccine is 95% effective".

Had people been told the truth about how ineffective and risky the vaccine were, far fewer people would have volunteered.

Anyone still contending otherwise is lying to themselves in the face of massive evidence.

Zobel said:

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i tried but the link won't let me fast forward.

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Hit full screen. Then you can forward through the video.

tried, still can't

Zobel said:

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tried, still can't

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works fine for me.

man, first i want to say it's really good that you're going to source material for this stuff. i appreciate this over the twitter noise.

Here is a review of the Thai paper by Frank Han, a pediatric cardiologist. I think its a good paper, and that it is good to have these kind of studies. Here are some things to consider in your analysis.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-vaccination-and-myocarditis-another-preprint/

The reviewer says - "this paper supports the body of knowledge regarding COVID vaccination myocarditis", and concludes - "if you don't want to have anything to do with mRNA vaccinations, nobody can twist your arm (really, pediatricians aren't looking to twist anyone's arms). All you have to do is not vaccinate, hopefully while understanding the risks of COVID-19 in unvaccinated populations."


I think his comments about EKG apply just as much to the Taiwan paper. That being said, that Taiwan paper says:

Quote:

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In early June 2021, the US Food and Drug Administration issued a warning about the rare adverse effect of myocarditis after being administered mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. In a report from the United States, the incidences of myocarditis were 70.7 and 105.8 cases per million in 1215- and 1617-year-old males receiving a second dose of the BNT162b2 vaccine. In a study in Israel, the incidence of myocarditis after a second dose of BNT162b2 was 1.51 per 10,000 in 1619-year-old males. In the present study, no clinical myocarditis was diagnosed and only one case of subclinical mild myocarditis was found among 4928 students. This result corresponds with previous findings that the incidence of clinical and even subclinical myocarditis is very low in those receiving a BNT162b2 vaccine

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so i would say that i disagree with how you are interpreting or presenting these two studies. neither supports a new finding of highly elevated risks, but instead give more information in line with those known risks.

///////////////

Surveillance paper is super interesting as a window into how seriously the FDA takes monitoring. it really flies in the face of the narrative that the government is hiding or ignoring safety signals with these vaccines. on the contrary, here you see how they monitor, then use that to detect safety signals or potential problems, then evaluate those safety signals to see if they represent a real risk.

/////

bottom line i think you're doing the right thing by reading, but i think you should guard against how these papers can be presented by people that may not be in line with what they actually say (or don't say).

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Surveillance paper is super interesting as a window into how seriously the FDA takes monitoring. it really flies in the face of the narrative that the government is hiding or ignoring safety signals with these vaccines. on the contrary, here you see how they monitor, then use that to detect safety signals or potential problems, then evaluate those safety signals to see if they represent a real risk.

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I sent you a link to watch testimonies of the vaccine injured. You conveniently said you couldn't get the video to work while it works both on my phone and laptop. You can't watch these videos on YouTube b/c they've been censored by the major social media sites. I wonder why?

It's not like we have a US Senator and real stories being shared about how the vaccines have destroyed their lives. But sure the government is not trying to hide or ignore safety signals.

Easy to say you don't see this stuff when it's constantly being suppressed. When I send you a link, you claim it doesn't work. But then you question our sources.

you sent me a multi-hour video i can't fast forward through. sorry man, not sure what to tell you.

just out of curiosity, do you think congressional depositions are the best and most productive way to investigate something like this?

not sure where i've questioned a source in our discussions. certainly not in the post above.

Had a gym mate of mine develop afib and had to undergo heart ablation at St. Joes a couple of weeks ago. The doc doing the procedure said it WAS caused by the vaccine. Doc said as of recently, the heart ablation was non stop patients every day. Said no doubt what the cause was.

this the same doctor that told you vaccines caused cardiac arrests in the months before they were available?

Zobel said:

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this the same doctor that told you vaccines caused cardiac arrests in the months before they were available?

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No doctor told me that. I had Moderna one and two. He told me NOT to take boosters or any more shots. Any more smart comments to make?

this you?

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3356193/replies/64096459

One thing we know with certainty. Vaccines didn't cause the small surge in cardiac events in young people in 2020. A trend that's now reversing. What are you afraid of?

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No we don't know that. My doc says otherwise.

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Yeah it is. I asked my doc if I needed to take the boosters and he said definitely not. They were worried about possible heart problems. Anything else you want to look up?

Zobel said:

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you sent me a multi-hour video i can't fast forward through. sorry man, not sure what to tell you.

just out of curiosity, do you think congressional depositions are the best and most productive way to investigate something like this?

not sure where i've questioned a source in our discussions. certainly not in the post above.

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Again, have you asked why these videos are being censored?

And you can easily scroll through the video I linked. Perhaps your phone/PC has a virus? I never expected you to watch 3+ hours. I honestly expected you to ignore it anyway which is exactly what you did. Par for the course.

The congressional deposition you reference shows real life stories of people who have been vaccine injured. One guy right down the road in Austin who lost his son the day after vaccination. A military doctor who testified to numerous accounts of her patients being vaccine injured. A young girl who is in a wheelchair and paralyzed after the vaccine. A professional cyclist who can no longer ride after being vaccinated. Many more.

But you're not interested b/c it doesn't fit your narrative. It's exactly why I called you out previously and you said I made it personal. YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT ANY EVIDENCE THAT DOESN'T FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. You'll simply argue that it doesn't come from a credited journal or the CDC. Like nothing can be credible unless it came from some study.

It's mind-blowing how obtuse people like you can be.

I'll leave you alone at this point. You're not interested in having a real discussion or you would attempt to watch some of the video I shared.

what's clear here is that you are wholly incapable of having a discussion without personal attacks.

what about how i present myself and engage in these discussions, including taking time to read research papers and engage in long-form discussion suggests i'm uninterested in considering evidence from all sources?

writing something in caps doesn't make it true. i tried to watch the rumble link; i can't fastforward in the video. for whatever reason you think it's productive to call me a liar and throw an all-caps hissy fit about it. and yet you say i'm the one being driven by emotion here? it's really a shame.

you didn't answer what i asked you. do you think a congressional deposition is the best and most productive way to investigate something like this?

is this the same video?


i watched this. it's heartbreaking. i also don't know what you can do with this. congressional hearings are not a useful method to determine causality of any medical treatment.

for example, here is an equally heartbreaking video about autism and vaccines from 2000
https://www.c-span.org/video/?156441-1/autism-childhood-vaccines

this isn't productive.

Like I said, quit preaching up the vaccine and let individuals make their own decisions. We already had one salute the vaccines poster.

Zobel said:

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what's clear here is that you are wholly incapable of having a discussion without personal attacks.

what about how i present myself and engage in these discussions, including taking time to read research papers and engage in long-form discussion suggests i'm uninterested in considering evidence from all sources?

writing something in caps doesn't make it true. i tried to watch the rumble link; i can't fastforward in the video. for whatever reason you think it's productive to call me a liar and throw an all-caps hissy fit about it. and yet you say i'm the one being driven by emotion here? it's really a shame.

you didn't answer what i asked you. do you think a congressional deposition is the best and most productive way to investigate something like this?

is this the same video?


i watched this. it's heartbreaking. i also don't know what you can do with this. congressional hearings are not a useful method to determine causality of any medical treatment.

for example, here is an equally heartbreaking video about autism and vaccines from 2000
https://www.c-span.org/video/?156441-1/autism-childhood-vaccines

this isn't productive.

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It's an abbreviated video of the panel discussion.

To answer your question, yes I think anything that shines a spotlight on the dangers of these vaccines and will bring attention is helpful. At least you're acknowledging that these vaccines have caused injury to some people. That's a start. Knowing this, how can you force a vaccine on people when it could destroy their lives? It doesn't and has never stopped transmission or infection. It has only lessened the infection for most.

It wasn't worth the risk for me and my family, and it certainly wasn't for my daughter who caught Covid and never showed a symptom. Yet, you have spent hours and hours defending these vaccines.

It is personal, b/c a large majority of people have been forced to take these shots or lose their jobs. Many people have had their health destroyed, and some have died. Yet, the MSM, the CDC, the FDA, and our president and his chief medical advisor have not only dismissed any danger from these vaccines, but they have mocked those who do and gone as far as to call them dangerous.

Most of the "experts" who are on the opposing side of your argument have been forced onto sites like Rumble, b/c they've been labeled as spreaders of misinformation by social media moderation (perhaps you should be asking if they are the best at determining what is misinformation and what isn't).

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writing something in caps doesn't make it true.

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It's called emphasizing a point. Has nothing to do with fact/fiction.

i've never supported forcing vaccines on anyone. i don't agree with vaccine mandates, i never have, and i really was upset about the cowardice to attempt to force people to take them via the backdoor use of the general duty clause of osha. that was complete crap, along with treating covid cases as recordables.

i think it would be surprising if the vaccines hadn't harmed people. all medicines have side effects. the flu vaccine likely causes fatal cases of guillain-barre every year (1-2 cases per million doses, 150 million doses per year, 3-5% of cases are fatal). it's really sad, and i don't mean that in a glib way at all. it's roulette with a crazy low odds of hitting on the round, but it is still there. do you think that is sufficient reason to not have flu vaccines?

if you say no, is it because you don't care about those people who will die each year from guillain-barre? no.

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It doesn't and has never stopped transmission or infection. It has only lessened the infection for most.

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you're stating this as fact, when the available medical evidence comes to the opposite conclusion. continuing with the example above, it is much better than the annual flu vaccine.


there are many people who will testify that many vaccines over the past fifty years caused many harms or deaths. their stories are emotional and heartbreaking and i wouldn't wish that on anyone. and yet, their testimony is not in and of itself evidence.

i think it's a statement of fact that measles don't cause autism. you may or may not believe that, i don't know. but i'm sure you can find someone who does, and if they're a parent of a child who is autistic their pain is real - but that doesn't make their conclusion correct.

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Most of the "experts" who are on the opposing side of your argument have been forced onto sites like Rumble, b/c they've been labeled as spreaders of misinformation by social media moderation (perhaps you should be asking if they are the best at determining what is misinformation and what isn't).

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am i obligated to defend google because i disagree with you on this? i don't agree with censorship - though there are plenty on this site who are more than willing to shout me down when they disagree. i'm happy to have an insult-free discussion with anyone.

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you have spent hours and hours defending these vaccines.

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yes. because i believe that truth is important, and that being able to have discussions where people can come together and improve each other through discussion is important. i think that a general abandoning of this practice is the sign of an incredibly sick electorate. in the end what is and isn't true is not a matter of opinion. all of us have an obligation based on our personal political agency to attempt to arrive at the truth to the best of our ability. people shouldn't be so reticent to engage people who disagree with them. i have learned a lot from these discussions, and several times have had people PM me to introduce themselves or talk further. isn't that what this forum is for?

why is what i do any different than what samurai does? are you going to go and chastise him for spending hours attacking the vaccines?

Zobel said:

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.

you didn't answer what i asked you. do you think a congressional deposition is the best and most productive way to investigate something like this?
.

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I don't know that he is saying it's the best way, but I'll agree that it's of importance to hear these depositions. Since the beginning of the vax being pushed, politicians, news personalities, CDC directors, etc have been telling the public to consult your doctor regarding the vaccine. This was not out of sincerity but to say "hey, we told them to talk to their doctor first, so I'm absolved of any blame for pushing the vaccine." Case in point is that it was literally easier to get the vaccine while buying an x box game at target than even getting in to see your doctor! That's not an exaggeration. It was not set up as an option after a consultation. It was just get it or else, but check with your doctor, who is still probably not seeing patients in person.

Anyway, so yes, now, let's check with our doctor. My daughters pediatrician will not recommend the vaccine to anyone under 18. She did for one case with a younger male who had some respiratory illness (forget what it was… had never heard of it), but that was it. In fact she would not sign off on my daughters physical for basketball if she had been vaccinated due to the cardiovascular risks. UC health in northern CO has the policy due to the potential for litigation. Parents of those vaccinated kids had to go to other clinics to get physicals approved. This was not the case in the fall, as I know several vaxed kids that got their physicals at HC health for fall sports. Actually had a great conversation with her about it. Her official stance was simply that she doesn't know what is going on with the vaccine and heart related injuries, but that they are definitely seeing an uptick in heart injuries in young patients. She can't say it's from the vaccine but she can't say it's not.

There have been a couple of other posters in some threads say something similar.

Now, I don't bring this up in conversations because it is simply anecdotal, but that doesnt mean it's wrong. Or that it does or doesn't point to a big issue. No, it's not the best or most productive way to discuss these things, which is why I'm personally hesitant to use these examples in debates/conversations, but these stories still matter and at some point there are enough that it stops becoming coincidental.

You say you care about the truth, but you're not nearly as worried about the suppression or censorship of opposing views. Musk took over Twitter and has informed of the suppression of information regarding Covid and many other issues. Yet, I don't see you bring the same energy about truth there.

If you think the Covid vaccines are safer and more effective than the flu vaccines, then we'll just have to disagree. My line of work puts me in the middle of hundreds with Covid. Your vaccines are not stopping transmission or infection. I don't put much faith in flu shots either which is why I don't get them.

I initially called you out saying this was personal for you b/c you have taken the vaccine and have a vested interest in you being correct. I, OTOH, don't care one iota about these vaccines and only care about my personal liberties being infringed upon or freedom of speech being suppressed. If you are against mandates, then we agree on that, but again I don't see the same energy coming from you going after the people who are pushing for mandates and vaccine cards. You seem to only want to debate those who don't want to take the shot and have their personal reasons for it. If you aren't worried about vaccine injury, why are you here spending so much time defending their efficacy? Sure seems like a waste of your time under the guise of "seeking the truth." I'm here b/c my government and our leaders are lying and manipulating us. You seem to be quite fine with how things are going. That's the difference.

Anyway, we've exhausted this and it's apparent neither of us are going to change each other's minds. Good day.

Well said. (And I think he just needs something to spend his time on).

Zobel said:

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man, first i want to say it's really good that you're going to source material for this stuff. i appreciate this over the twitter noise.

Here is a review of the Thai paper by Frank Han, a pediatric cardiologist. I think its a good paper, and that it is good to have these kind of studies. Here are some things to consider in your analysis.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-vaccination-and-myocarditis-another-preprint/

The reviewer says - "this paper supports the body of knowledge regarding COVID vaccination myocarditis", and concludes - "if you don't want to have anything to do with mRNA vaccinations, nobody can twist your arm (really, pediatricians aren't looking to twist anyone's arms). All you have to do is not vaccinate, hopefully while understanding the risks of COVID-19 in unvaccinated populations."


I think his comments about EKG apply just as much to the Taiwan paper. That being said, that Taiwan paper says:

Quote:

---

In early June 2021, the US Food and Drug Administration issued a warning about the rare adverse effect of myocarditis after being administered mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. In a report from the United States, the incidences of myocarditis were 70.7 and 105.8 cases per million in 1215- and 1617-year-old males receiving a second dose of the BNT162b2 vaccine. In a study in Israel, the incidence of myocarditis after a second dose of BNT162b2 was 1.51 per 10,000 in 1619-year-old males. In the present study, no clinical myocarditis was diagnosed and only one case of subclinical mild myocarditis was found among 4928 students. This result corresponds with previous findings that the incidence of clinical and even subclinical myocarditis is very low in those receiving a BNT162b2 vaccine

---

so i would say that i disagree with how you are interpreting or presenting these two studies. neither supports a new finding of highly elevated risks, but instead give more information in line with those known risks.

///////////////

Surveillance paper is super interesting as a window into how seriously the FDA takes monitoring. it really flies in the face of the narrative that the government is hiding or ignoring safety signals with these vaccines. on the contrary, here you see how they monitor, then use that to detect safety signals or potential problems, then evaluate those safety signals to see if they represent a real risk.

/////

bottom line i think you're doing the right thing by reading, but i think you should guard against how these papers can be presented by people that may not be in line with what they actually say (or don't say).

---

I present the papers only to show the risk indicated by the studies exceeds the risk claimed by Phase 3 trials (they may not be "new" but they were not presented upon vaccine approval). When you combine this fact with the true efficacy versus those claimed by the Trial, I don't believe people based their vaccination decisions on adequate information nor do I believe the vaccines were approved based on adequate information. Remember that Americans were told the vaccine would likely prevent them from getting Covid - the trial endpoint was prevention, not hospitalization. Telescoping testing times exposed many Americans to unnecessary risks in my estimation.

How many vaccinated people do you know who still got Covid?

So many lies. I will hold Fauci accountable. https://t.co/Tks7Ym6HGQ

— Rand Paul (@RandPaul) January 11, 2023

Yes, this is my biggest issue. Fauci and the cdc used data from double blind peer reviewed studies to make these claims as well. With the benefit of hindsight we know he was lying as he had the real data from the studies and not the published conclusions. But now we are supposed to trust these same people and the same sources. Why? Seriously, why should anyone trust these sources of information regarding anything to do with Covid or the vaccines?

How many vaccinated people do you know who still got Covid?

So many lies. I will hold Fauci accountable. https://t.co/Tks7Ym6HGQ

— Rand Paul (@RandPaul) January 11, 2023