aTmAg said:
Yet, people for thousands of years have been able to use gold without even being able to read. Maybe that is why it has been the most successful form of money in world history.
TexasRebel said:The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:Ok so let's play this out. Is it the US government that goes full CCP and bans BTC? If so, how are they going to ban it? Like be specific on how that's going to be accomplished?The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:This is what people\companies are building now. I went to the Texas Blockchain summit in Austin a few weeks ago. Yes, BTC price is down but there is a robust infrastructure being built out that most people are ignorant exists. And for every one of these solutions that is being built on the back of BTC\Lightning it provides value to the system.The Banned said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own.
I would sell you a car in BTC today, AE might have another item or service that he would gladly take BTC for. I think if you did some digging you might be surprised how robust the BTC economy already is.
If I could be convinced that the parallel market could survive a totalitarian government wanting to control all we do, I'd be all on board the Bitcoin train. My concern right now is that people are accepting that BTC because they know they can convert that to local currency. If we waive a magic wand today and that ability went away, would that alternate market continue to move forward? If so, I'd genuinely love to hear how.
Again, programmable CBDCs. They will have the ability to literally make you incapable of giving away your CBDCs for a BTC if they so choose. Drugs, guns and other contraband can still be sold because of paper transactions. That paper is then laundered and re-enters the market and ready for use on legal goods.
But in a world where there is no potential for paper transactions and all transactions were not only monitored but programmable, you swipe your card and nothing happens. You just can't. Want to buy too much alcohol? You can't. Want to buy your 10th pizza this week? You can't. Want to buy a BTC. You can't. And if a seller knows no one can give him legal tender for the illicit BTC he's about to receive no matter how much they may want to, why would he take it?
It's not about jail time. It's about the sheer inability to conduct the transaction. For the record, I think this level of micro managing is much further away than the fear mongers would say because I think the populace wouldn't accept it in such a rushed way. But it's very likely coming at some points
Do you want the barter system?
This is how you get the barter system.
Bank won't let you get another pizza? You sell shoes? I need shoes, you need pizza…
administrative errorsaTmAg said:Convenient thing for you that you switched accounts as bitcoin was plunging? So that we can't know for sure who you were?Adverse Event said:aTmAg said:
Oh, so then I guess you are saying that it takes understanding crypto algorithms to realize that bitcoin supposedly doesn't suck? That otherwise all of America would be using it? It doesn't take that sort of knowledge to look at a graph and see ridiculous instability. It's not lack of understanding that makes bitcoin suck, it's bitcoins suckiness that makes it suck.
Bitcoin has shown to be more like a high risk dot-com stock than digital gold. If bitcoin really was a better gold than gold, then it would up or at least be stable during this time of inflation rather than down over 70%. Just go look at your guys predictions 5 or 10 years ago. You could not have been more wrong.
I'll wait for you to find one of my predictions on price, about 5 years ago I stopped caring about price.
It's funny how ALL you guys cared about was price during it's bubble. Then once it cratered, you suddenly you stopped caring about price?
And the notion that one wouldn't care about price for an asset that's ONLY value is it's price is hilarious. And you want people to take your advice?People don't use Nasdaq and S&P 500 stocks as money either as they would suck at that just like bitcoin.Quote:
Ahhh it's so volatile!Quote:
Bitcoin's volatility falls below Nasdaq and S&P 500s for first time since 2020
And unlike bitcoin, these stocks actually pay dividends.
What were you prior to that? (not that it matters.. I can only search back 1 years. I'll let somebody with stars search back 5 years). I do remember that all you dudes were claiming bitcoin would go to the moon practically indefinitely. Weren't you repeatedly posting that gif of bitcoin zooming up the chart?Adverse Event said:administrative errorsaTmAg said:Convenient thing for you that you switched accounts as bitcoin was plunging? So that we can't know for sure who you were?Adverse Event said:aTmAg said:
Oh, so then I guess you are saying that it takes understanding crypto algorithms to realize that bitcoin supposedly doesn't suck? That otherwise all of America would be using it? It doesn't take that sort of knowledge to look at a graph and see ridiculous instability. It's not lack of understanding that makes bitcoin suck, it's bitcoins suckiness that makes it suck.
Bitcoin has shown to be more like a high risk dot-com stock than digital gold. If bitcoin really was a better gold than gold, then it would up or at least be stable during this time of inflation rather than down over 70%. Just go look at your guys predictions 5 or 10 years ago. You could not have been more wrong.
I'll wait for you to find one of my predictions on price, about 5 years ago I stopped caring about price.
It's funny how ALL you guys cared about was price during it's bubble. Then once it cratered, you suddenly you stopped caring about price?
And the notion that one wouldn't care about price for an asset that's ONLY value is it's price is hilarious. And you want people to take your advice?People don't use Nasdaq and S&P 500 stocks as money either as they would suck at that just like bitcoin.Quote:
Ahhh it's so volatile!Quote:
Bitcoin's volatility falls below Nasdaq and S&P 500s for first time since 2020
And unlike bitcoin, these stocks actually pay dividends.
um, to me, this makes it a screaming buyMemphisAg1 said:
Passing along a link to this article that makes the case Bitcoin will remain on a downward trend.https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/30/european-central-bank-says-bitcoin-is-on-the-road-to-irrelevance.htmlQuote:
"Bitcoin's conceptual design and technological shortcomings make it questionable as a means of payment: real Bitcoin transactions are cumbersome, slow and expensive," they wrote. "Bitcoin has never been used to any significant extent for legal real-world transactions."
"Bitcoin is also not suitable as an investment. It does not generate cash flow (like real estate) or dividends (like equities), cannot be used productively (like commodities) or provide social benefits (like gold). The market valuation of Bitcoin is therefore based purely on speculation," they added.
I don't own any because I haven't resolved how to value it, and it's too volatile for my taste. I follow a hard rule of not investing in things I don't understand. That has served me well after some small, but impactful, lessons learned with investing earlier in life.
But I'm fascinated by the ongoing story of technology development, wealth creation and destruction.
so, similar to gold, diamonds, copper, catalytic converters, oil, natural gas, corn, wheat, soy beans, steel, ammunition...?Muy said:
In the US it's a collector's item that soon gets traded back to the dollar when someone feels they've made enough.
Those things have alternate uses and value to mere speculation.Bag said:so, similar to gold, diamonds, copper, catalytic converters, oil, natural gas, corn, wheat, soy beans, steel, ammunition...?Muy said:
In the US it's a collector's item that soon gets traded back to the dollar when someone feels they've made enough.
— Jameson Lopp (@lopp) November 30, 2022
Control the money supply.
— Daniel Prince (@PrinceySOV) November 30, 2022
Enforce with violence
Control regulatory implementation.
Enforce with violence.
Control education.
Enforce with violence.
Control certification.
Enforce with violence.
Control judicial system.
Enforce with violence.
Add your own below.
One day, you will realize that bitcoin won't break anybody free from any chains. That you blew your money on a false promise that you fell for.exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?
Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.
Shanked punt.
I clearly asked you to state what BTC's value is based on, if not local currency. You merely restated my question.
exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
This is what Bitcoiners do while crypto is melting down.
— Brady Swenson (@CitizenBitcoin) November 30, 2022
We teach, we learn, we build, we grow stronger.
Bitcoiners are anti-fragile. pic.twitter.com/mvDrCXGad7
CDUB98 said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?
Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.
Shanked punt.
I clearly asked you to state what BTC's value is based on, if not local currency. You merely restated my question.
Hey, Adverse, you going to respond to this?
And lose money and credibility.exp said:This is what Bitcoiners do while crypto is melting down.
— Brady Swenson (@CitizenBitcoin) November 30, 2022
We teach, we learn, we build, we grow stronger.
Bitcoiners are anti-fragile. pic.twitter.com/mvDrCXGad7
Kvetch said:exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
If by statist you mean non-anarchist, then sure. But there's nothing new under the sun, including your views. You've just wrapped them up in a different, technological form. Your vision of the world is highly unlikely to ever come to fruition.
That being said, you're free to buy your little digital tokens and theorize about the Bitcoin revolution.
NOBODY compares the value of anything to bitcoin. You can't be serious?exp said:CDUB98 said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?
Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.
Shanked punt.
I clearly asked you to state what BTC's value is based on, if not local currency. You merely restated my question.
Hey, Adverse, you going to respond to this?
BTC is not based on anything else. It is the thing. Few understand.
aTmAg said:One day, you will realize that bitcoin won't break anybody free from any chains. That you blew your money on a false promise that you fell for.exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
None of us conservatives think the dollar is wonderful. We just realize that BTC is not the next, 3rd, or even 100th best alterative. When the dollar fails, people will go to something other than bitcoin.
In Lebanon, the local currency has lost more than 95% of its value, pensions are worthless, banks shutdown, and ATMs are out of cash.
— Documenting Bitcoin 📄 (@DocumentingBTC) November 27, 2022
People are surviving with #bitcoin pic.twitter.com/aeIwriiq9m
aTmAg said:NOBODY compares the value of anything to bitcoin. You can't be serious?exp said:CDUB98 said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:CDUB98 said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?
Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.
Shanked punt.
I clearly asked you to state what BTC's value is based on, if not local currency. You merely restated my question.
Hey, Adverse, you going to respond to this?
BTC is not based on anything else. It is the thing. Few understand.
So countries that monetarily don't know what they are doing seem to chose bitcoin.Adverse Event said:aTmAg said:One day, you will realize that bitcoin won't break anybody free from any chains. That you blew your money on a false promise that you fell for.exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
None of us conservatives think the dollar is wonderful. We just realize that BTC is not the next, 3rd, or even 100th best alterative. When the dollar fails, people will go to something other than bitcoin.
Hm, when other countries have had their monetary system collapse they seem to build parallel economies with bitcoin.In Lebanon, the local currency has lost more than 95% of its value, pensions are worthless, banks shutdown, and ATMs are out of cash.
— Documenting Bitcoin 📄 (@DocumentingBTC) November 27, 2022
People are surviving with #bitcoin pic.twitter.com/aeIwriiq9m
Bag said:so, similar to gold, diamonds, copper, catalytic converters, oil, natural gas, corn, wheat, soy beans, steel, ammunition...?Muy said:
In the US it's a collector's item that soon gets traded back to the dollar when someone feels they've made enough.
Are you kidding? I've been predicting inflation for over a decade. As far as I'm aware, I have been commenting on it here longer than any other poster. To pretend that I ever thought inflation was transitory or that I believed Keynesian principles is hilarious.Adverse Event said:
Who actually does know what they are doing with monetary policy?
This current 50 year cycle of policy making sure seems to be winding into a close and everyone is doing their best to manage around disaster.
Nevermind, I'll trust my betters, inflation is transitory.
The Banned said:TexasRebel said:The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:Ok so let's play this out. Is it the US government that goes full CCP and bans BTC? If so, how are they going to ban it? Like be specific on how that's going to be accomplished?The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:This is what people\companies are building now. I went to the Texas Blockchain summit in Austin a few weeks ago. Yes, BTC price is down but there is a robust infrastructure being built out that most people are ignorant exists. And for every one of these solutions that is being built on the back of BTC\Lightning it provides value to the system.The Banned said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own.
I would sell you a car in BTC today, AE might have another item or service that he would gladly take BTC for. I think if you did some digging you might be surprised how robust the BTC economy already is.
If I could be convinced that the parallel market could survive a totalitarian government wanting to control all we do, I'd be all on board the Bitcoin train. My concern right now is that people are accepting that BTC because they know they can convert that to local currency. If we waive a magic wand today and that ability went away, would that alternate market continue to move forward? If so, I'd genuinely love to hear how.
Again, programmable CBDCs. They will have the ability to literally make you incapable of giving away your CBDCs for a BTC if they so choose. Drugs, guns and other contraband can still be sold because of paper transactions. That paper is then laundered and re-enters the market and ready for use on legal goods.
But in a world where there is no potential for paper transactions and all transactions were not only monitored but programmable, you swipe your card and nothing happens. You just can't. Want to buy too much alcohol? You can't. Want to buy your 10th pizza this week? You can't. Want to buy a BTC. You can't. And if a seller knows no one can give him legal tender for the illicit BTC he's about to receive no matter how much they may want to, why would he take it?
It's not about jail time. It's about the sheer inability to conduct the transaction. For the record, I think this level of micro managing is much further away than the fear mongers would say because I think the populace wouldn't accept it in such a rushed way. But it's very likely coming at some points
Do you want the barter system?
This is how you get the barter system.
Bank won't let you get another pizza? You sell shoes? I need shoes, you need pizza…
No I do not want the barter system. I don't want the damn CBDCs. The governments do.
aTmAg said:Are you kidding? I've been predicting inflation for over a decade. As far as I'm aware, I have been commenting on it here longer than any other poster. To pretend that I ever thought inflation was transitory or that I believed Keynesian principles is hilarious.Adverse Event said:
Who actually does know what they are doing with monetary policy?
This current 50 year cycle of policy making sure seems to be winding into a close and everyone is doing their best to manage around disaster.
Nevermind, I'll trust my betters, inflation is transitory.
And we (the US) knew what we were doing with monetary policy when we were on the gold standard.
what? the country is not choosing bitcoin. the people in the country whose lives have been ruined by their incompetent government are choosing bitcoin.aTmAg said:So countries that monetarily don't know what they are doing seem to chose bitcoin.Adverse Event said:aTmAg said:One day, you will realize that bitcoin won't break anybody free from any chains. That you blew your money on a false promise that you fell for.exp said:
One day liberty loving conservatives will wake up. The debates on this forum are silly at this point. The reality is most on here are quiet statists who don't have courage to break free from their chains. That's ok.
None of us conservatives think the dollar is wonderful. We just realize that BTC is not the next, 3rd, or even 100th best alterative. When the dollar fails, people will go to something other than bitcoin.
Hm, when other countries have had their monetary system collapse they seem to build parallel economies with bitcoin.In Lebanon, the local currency has lost more than 95% of its value, pensions are worthless, banks shutdown, and ATMs are out of cash.
— Documenting Bitcoin 📄 (@DocumentingBTC) November 27, 2022
People are surviving with #bitcoin pic.twitter.com/aeIwriiq9m
Is that supposed to be an endorsement?
Adverse Event said:
Who actually does know what they are doing with monetary policy?
This current 50 year cycle of policy making sure seems to be winding into a close and everyone is doing their best to manage around disaster.
Nevermind, I'll trust my betters, inflation is transitory.
so close to getting it. one of the main value propositions of bitcoin is that its monetary policy is immutable and governed by math and physics, NOT by people.Kvetch said:Adverse Event said:
Who actually does know what they are doing with monetary policy?
This current 50 year cycle of policy making sure seems to be winding into a close and everyone is doing their best to manage around disaster.
Nevermind, I'll trust my betters, inflation is transitory.
Except everyone with a brain (not democrats) knew that all of their spending was inflationary and not transitory and called out that bull**** line before any of the spending happened. We know exactly what causes inflation. Problems only arise when you ignore basic economics in pursuit of power and ideological victories.
The issue isn't the money. It's the people. And it will be the same exact story with Bitcoin (or any other currency), just in different ways. Pretending like crypto is free from any kind of issues because it is "decentralized" is absurd.
You're like the people that spend their entire lives blaming corporations for all their problems and advocating for unions. Then, when you actually unionize the power swings back so far in the other direction that **** ends up being just as bad but for different and opposite reasons.
ac04 said:
in this transaction from yesterday, $160MM was transferred directly between two parties (with absolutely no need for permission or approval by any third party) for a fee of $1.61: https://mempool.space/tx/ab0aebadf57464eeac2d6fce06182e56e21e8bfa22d548b50935aad524ded10b
is the ability to complete this transaction independent of any institution or government, virtually for free, and with final settlement in an hour or less valuable?
Pepper Brooks said:The Banned said:TexasRebel said:The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:Ok so let's play this out. Is it the US government that goes full CCP and bans BTC? If so, how are they going to ban it? Like be specific on how that's going to be accomplished?The Banned said:MR Gadsden said:This is what people\companies are building now. I went to the Texas Blockchain summit in Austin a few weeks ago. Yes, BTC price is down but there is a robust infrastructure being built out that most people are ignorant exists. And for every one of these solutions that is being built on the back of BTC\Lightning it provides value to the system.The Banned said:Adverse Event said:
Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].
That's a poor assumption.
There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own.
I would sell you a car in BTC today, AE might have another item or service that he would gladly take BTC for. I think if you did some digging you might be surprised how robust the BTC economy already is.
If I could be convinced that the parallel market could survive a totalitarian government wanting to control all we do, I'd be all on board the Bitcoin train. My concern right now is that people are accepting that BTC because they know they can convert that to local currency. If we waive a magic wand today and that ability went away, would that alternate market continue to move forward? If so, I'd genuinely love to hear how.
Again, programmable CBDCs. They will have the ability to literally make you incapable of giving away your CBDCs for a BTC if they so choose. Drugs, guns and other contraband can still be sold because of paper transactions. That paper is then laundered and re-enters the market and ready for use on legal goods.
But in a world where there is no potential for paper transactions and all transactions were not only monitored but programmable, you swipe your card and nothing happens. You just can't. Want to buy too much alcohol? You can't. Want to buy your 10th pizza this week? You can't. Want to buy a BTC. You can't. And if a seller knows no one can give him legal tender for the illicit BTC he's about to receive no matter how much they may want to, why would he take it?
It's not about jail time. It's about the sheer inability to conduct the transaction. For the record, I think this level of micro managing is much further away than the fear mongers would say because I think the populace wouldn't accept it in such a rushed way. But it's very likely coming at some points
Do you want the barter system?
This is how you get the barter system.
Bank won't let you get another pizza? You sell shoes? I need shoes, you need pizza…
No I do not want the barter system. I don't want the damn CBDCs. The governments do.
Would you agree that the odds of the scenario you're describing is low? I'm still not convinced that the fed/federal govt has the legal authority to create and force a CBDC on the American public or take the amount of control and authority they'd need to do what you all suggest. Such an attempt would be litigated SO hard and would take years. There are a number of potential outcomes to that chain of events that end in civil war as well. Politicians seem to prefer the low hanging fruit and I don't believe the incentives are aligned to civil war being desirable.
Id be interested in shifting the discussions from the extremes back to the middle if anyone is interested. It feels like human nature has a tendency to assume that there are only two outcomes to hot topics. One at either end of the spectrum. The reality is likely to fall somewhere in the middle after a period of time, with ebbs and flows of change and retracement, and that zone is where the interesting discussions lie.
Bitcoin has obvious value as a decentralized digital commodity, for those who already hold it, if the US goes full CCP + social credit system.
Bitcoin the coin, and more so the underlying protocol, has the chance to be so much more than that if it's integrated into the various financial systems/regulations as things evolve. Anyone have ideas for where we can implement it now? International money transfers and adding additional revenue streams to upstream O&G production could be good places to start.
ac04 said:so close to getting it. one of the main value propositions of bitcoin is that its monetary policy is immutable and governed by math and physics, NOT by people.Kvetch said:Adverse Event said:
Who actually does know what they are doing with monetary policy?
This current 50 year cycle of policy making sure seems to be winding into a close and everyone is doing their best to manage around disaster.
Nevermind, I'll trust my betters, inflation is transitory.
Except everyone with a brain (not democrats) knew that all of their spending was inflationary and not transitory and called out that bull**** line before any of the spending happened. We know exactly what causes inflation. Problems only arise when you ignore basic economics in pursuit of power and ideological victories.
The issue isn't the money. It's the people. And it will be the same exact story with Bitcoin (or any other currency), just in different ways. Pretending like crypto is free from any kind of issues because it is "decentralized" is absurd.
You're like the people that spend their entire lives blaming corporations for all their problems and advocating for unions. Then, when you actually unionize the power swings back so far in the other direction that **** ends up being just as bad but for different and opposite reasons.
aTmAg said:
Oh, so then I guess you are saying that it takes understanding crypto algorithms to realize that bitcoin supposedly doesn't suck? That otherwise all of America would be using it? It doesn't take that sort of knowledge to look at a graph and see ridiculous instability. It's not lack of understanding that makes bitcoin suck, it's bitcoins suckiness that makes it suck.
Bitcoin has shown to be more like a high risk dot-com stock than digital gold. If bitcoin really was a better gold than gold, then it would up or at least be stable during this time of inflation rather than down over 70%. Just go look at your guys predictions 5 or 10 years ago. You could not have been more wrong.
