Those "Emergency Heat" heat strips use a crap-ton of electricity. Heat pumps are made for efficiency and can't keep up with weather like this.
Rolling blackouts in Texas
174,375 Views |
1588 Replies |
Last: 3 yr ago by Whitetail
XXXVII said:Cassius said:V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Good point. Except for one house, it's always a gas furnace. I did have a heat pump in one house which was electric and a joke. Not getting this increase in demand.
I'm not sure my gas furnace will run without electricity. It needs electricity to run the thermostat and relay boards.
Yeah, but that doesn't explain a huge surge. It takes very little electricity to turn on the furnace.
XXXVII said:Cassius said:V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Good point. Except for one house, it's always a gas furnace. I did have a heat pump in one house which was electric and a joke. Not getting this increase in demand.
I'm not sure my gas furnace will run without electricity. It needs electricity to run the thermostat and relay boards.
And the fan
Cassius said:XXXVII said:Cassius said:V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Good point. Except for one house, it's always a gas furnace. I did have a heat pump in one house which was electric and a joke. Not getting this increase in demand.
I'm not sure my gas furnace will run without electricity. It needs electricity to run the thermostat and relay boards.
Yeah, but that doesn't explain a huge surge. It takes very little electricity to turn on the furnace.
The fans that move the hot air through your ducts do consume a good amount of power.
So does air conditioning use more power than gas heating or not? If so, despite some number of houses using electric heat, shouldn't the grid be able to take this more easily than the worst summer heat waves?
rynning said:
So does air conditioning use more power than gas heating or not? If so, despite some number of houses using electric heat, shouldn't the grid be able to take this more easily than the worst summer heat waves?
Yes. Compressors use a crap ton of electricity. Unless, like someone said, heat strips are being activated, a surge that could lead to blackouts doesn't make sense.
I don't think my heat pump will work real well when it's 5 degrees out, and as well the electric backup will consume a ton of electricity. Not sure how many use heat pumps vs. furnaces (probably around 20 percent), but I think that's part of it.
rynning said:
So does air conditioning use more power than gas heating or not? If so, despite some number of houses using electric heat, shouldn't the grid be able to take this more easily than the worst summer heat waves?
I think resistive heating when running all day does consume a lot more energy compared to just a/c fans. I could be wrong though.
The other issue is that the cold makes the available generation capacity lower due to ice taking renewables out of commission and water pipes freezing which cause coal/gas plants to go offline.
Those same fans run when using air conditioners.XXXVII said:Cassius said:XXXVII said:Cassius said:V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Good point. Except for one house, it's always a gas furnace. I did have a heat pump in one house which was electric and a joke. Not getting this increase in demand.
I'm not sure my gas furnace will run without electricity. It needs electricity to run the thermostat and relay boards.
Yeah, but that doesn't explain a huge surge. It takes very little electricity to turn on the furnace.
The fans that move the hot air through your ducts do consume a good amount of power.
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
richardag said:Those same fans run when using air conditioners.XXXVII said:Cassius said:XXXVII said:Cassius said:V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Good point. Except for one house, it's always a gas furnace. I did have a heat pump in one house which was electric and a joke. Not getting this increase in demand.
I'm not sure my gas furnace will run without electricity. It needs electricity to run the thermostat and relay boards.
Yeah, but that doesn't explain a huge surge. It takes very little electricity to turn on the furnace.
The fans that move the hot air through your ducts do consume a good amount of power.
The question is do they run more often during extreme cold?
Why don't they just command the windmills to spin faster in cold weather?AggDogg61 said:
Those wind turbines must be freezing up.
Uhh the demand for heating or cooling is what uses 99% of the electrical requirement. Electric use for a board and running a fan require very little. You day drinking already or being intentionally dense?
Heat pumps can move somewhere between 1.5 to 3 times the amount of thermal energy as they consume. Electric resistance heaters are ~100% efficient so they produce the same amount of thermal energy that they consume. Heat pumps are far more efficient at moving heat, problem is they are all going to be frozen in this weather so heating will rely on gas or electric resistance heaters.
Something like 60-70% of homes in Texas are electric heat. Those homes are about to be running their electric heaters non-stop because the temperature difference would be like having 120-130 degree summers and they're combatting it with less efficient equipment.
Something like 60-70% of homes in Texas are electric heat. Those homes are about to be running their electric heaters non-stop because the temperature difference would be like having 120-130 degree summers and they're combatting it with less efficient equipment.
V8Aggie said:
Uhh the demand for heating or cooling is what uses 99% of the electrical requirement. Electric use for a board and running a fan require very little. You day drinking already or being intentionally dense?
I wasn't trying to debate the electric demand with that post. Just making a tangent comment that you'll likely not have heat when the power goes out regardless of having an electric heater or a gas furnace.
Many homes and apartment buildings have electric heat. And many folks rely on space heaters. It's always a large instantaneous load, but usually more intermittent. When the entire state goes this cold, you see it in the grid.
V8Aggie
Joined:
Oct 14, 2015
Posts:
3,002
How long do you want to ignore this user?
lead said:
Many homes and apartment buildings have electric heat. And many folks rely on space heaters. It's always a large instantaneous load, but usually more intermittent. When the entire state goes this cold, you see it in the grid.
Makes sense.
Normal winter real time prices are $0-$20/MWH. Currently ~$1400. I think the max limit is around $10000. Deregulated markets keep consumer prices super low, but it's nuts during times like these when there is no incentive to build in baseline capacity.
http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/20210214_real_time_spp
http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/20210214_real_time_spp
Air Conditioner - electricity to run compressor and blowers - pretty efficient as you are only "transferring" heat (from inside to outside)
Heat Pump - again only electricity to run compressor and blowers - very efficient (transferring heat from outside) but can't keep up with requirement when below 20 degrees
Old resistance electric furnaces and emergency heat for heat pumps - very inefficient and huge consumer of electricity while "generating" heat.
Gas Furnaces - from a total energy consumption standpoint, it is a lot less efficient than a heat pump because you are "generating" heat rather than "transferring" heat, but from a purely electrical standpoint you are only running the blowers.
So the question is in Texas, how many people are using electricity to "generate" heat.. should include all the small inefficient space heaters people are turning on to boost their system or warm individual rooms.
Heat Pump - again only electricity to run compressor and blowers - very efficient (transferring heat from outside) but can't keep up with requirement when below 20 degrees
Old resistance electric furnaces and emergency heat for heat pumps - very inefficient and huge consumer of electricity while "generating" heat.
Gas Furnaces - from a total energy consumption standpoint, it is a lot less efficient than a heat pump because you are "generating" heat rather than "transferring" heat, but from a purely electrical standpoint you are only running the blowers.
So the question is in Texas, how many people are using electricity to "generate" heat.. should include all the small inefficient space heaters people are turning on to boost their system or warm individual rooms.
Heater on in the house and fan running
Good post. You sent yours while I was typingFenrir said:
Heat pumps can move somewhere between 1.5 to 3 times the amount of thermal energy as they consume. Electric resistance heaters are ~100% efficient so they produce the same amount of thermal energy that they consume. Heat pumps are far more efficient at moving heat, problem is they are all going to be frozen in this weather so heating will rely on gas or electric resistance heaters.
Something like 60-70% of homes in Texas are electric heat. Those homes are about to be running their electric heaters non-stop because the temperature difference would be like having 120-130 degree summers and they're combatting it with less efficient equipment.
When we built our home in 2019 I realized too late that I should have stubbed out for a generator and poured the pad. It'll never get that cheap again.
Hope I don't regret that mistake this week.
Hope I don't regret that mistake this week.
Staff - take out the trash.
The fan to move the air for both cooling and heating is the same and it takes electricity. The difference is cooling means the condensing unit outside is running as well, where heating with electricity takes power to heat the heating elements which consumes a lot of power. Which one is more, I don't know, but surmise that hearing elements take more energy than a cooling condensing unit.rynning said:
So does air conditioning use more power than gas heating or not? If so, despite some number of houses using electric heat, shouldn't the grid be able to take this more easily than the worst summer heat waves?
Edit, AG81 explains it better.
Thomas Jefferson: "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
A lot of pool pumps running right now, too. Trying to keep pool plumbing from freezing, too.
lead said:
Normal winter real time prices are $0-$20/MWH. Currently ~$1400. I think the max limit is around $10000. Deregulated markets keep consumer prices super low, but it's nuts during times like these when there is no incentive to build in baseline capacity.
http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/html/20210214_real_time_spp
This seems more likely the problem. REPs paying people to go somewhere else so they don't have to pay the spot rates right now and sell it to consumers at $.09/kWh, combines with some people turning that into "they said they're going to have to turn off our electricity."
I was going to point this out but I don't know sh^t about electricity loads and whatnot. Pretty much everyone in Dallas has been running their pools 24/7 for 2 days already. No idea what kind of impact that would have.Burrus86 said:
A lot of pool pumps running right now, too. Trying to keep pool plumbing from freezing, too.
I don't know what's normal, but my pool installer set the pumps to run constantly starting at 35 degrees.YouBet said:I was going to point this out but I don't know sh^t about electricity loads and whatnot. Pretty much everyone in Dallas has been running their pools 24/7 for 2 days already. No idea what kind of impact that would have.Burrus86 said:
A lot of pool pumps running right now, too. Trying to keep pool plumbing from freezing, too.
V8Aggie said:
I don't get it. I've lived in over 20 homes and they all had gas heaters. Am I missing something? I mean everyone's AC runs off electricity so even if half of us gave electric furnaces how are we going to put a dent in the grid?
Eventually you will learn about controls.
itsyourboypookie said:
People in Dallas are melting down on social media saying their power company text them about rolling blackouts.
Surely this is because of ice taking down trees that are taking down power lines and not because Texas can't meet energy demands.
If we truly can't meet the energy demands because of a cold snap, they better not shutter another coal plant and quit wasting acreage on solar.
Well thank gawd for gas heating.
I know mine's been running nonstop since Friday.Burrus86 said:
A lot of pool pumps running right now, too. Trying to keep pool plumbing from freezing, too.
I think that's exactly what's happening. Heat pumps don't work below a certain temperature (40 or so?), so the emergency heat strips cut on. Those are extremely inefficient.Cassius said:rynning said:
So does air conditioning use more power than gas heating or not? If so, despite some number of houses using electric heat, shouldn't the grid be able to take this more easily than the worst summer heat waves?
Yes. Compressors use a crap ton of electricity. Unless, like someone said, heat strips are being activated, a surge that could lead to blackouts doesn't make sense.
Here's another potential problem. Getting everyone to turn down their thermostat to 68 degrees works great to save electricity when you are in the 30-40 degree outdoor temp range because most electric heating systems and house insulation allow a house to be heated beyond 68 degrees, so by setting your thermostat at 68 you actually shut off the electricity once it hits 68.
However I imagine that when we get to single digits outside, many houses (or most) will have to run full time just to try and get to 68. So for many homes it will not matter whether you are set at 68 or 70.
However I imagine that when we get to single digits outside, many houses (or most) will have to run full time just to try and get to 68. So for many homes it will not matter whether you are set at 68 or 70.
A lot of older homes are going to struggle to stay 62-64 by tomorrow.
We have a whole home generator and it's not that much maintenance. Change the oil once a year and keep a good battery in it, and it's good to go. Some change the plugs every year as well, but I'll probably do that every 2-3 years. It has a run/maintenance cycle that happens once a week where it cranks up and runs for about 10 minutes. Haven't had to use it much, but our neighborhood did go about 15 hours without power over the summer due to limbs falling on lines and blowing several transformers down the line. Everyone else outside dying while we have the AC going...though I did turn off the upstairs and ran the downstairs. Luckily, the previous owners ate the cost of it.nortex97 said:
With the greeny crap now ascendant I am seriously looking at options this year for a backup generator for the house. A pain to maintain a full size one for years just in case but I think it is inevitable at this point that our power grid is going to become a lot less reliable moving forward.
Yeah...aTm2004 said:We have a whole home generator and it's not that much maintenance. Change the oil once a year and keep a good battery in it, and it's good to go. Some change the plugs every year as well, but I'll probably do that every 2-3 years. It has a run/maintenance cycle that happens once a week where it cranks up and runs for about 10 minutes. Haven't had to use it much, but our neighborhood did go about 15 hours without power over the summer due to limbs falling on lines and blowing several transformers down the line. Everyone else outside dying while we have the AC going...though I did turn off the upstairs and ran the downstairs. Luckily, the previous owners ate the cost of it.nortex97 said:
With the greeny crap now ascendant I am seriously looking at options this year for a backup generator for the house. A pain to maintain a full size one for years just in case but I think it is inevitable at this point that our power grid is going to become a lot less reliable moving forward.
I priced one right after Hanna knocked out our power here on NPI for 18 hrs. $11K seemed to be the median price...
I'll probably end up doing it sometime in the future, but...I'll be sad when I make that payment.