*** TRUE DETECTIVE (SEASON 3) ***

126,749 Views | 791 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by mhayden
Zombie Jon Snow
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Yes... and I posted it as a BIG picture instead of a link. Harder to miss it and skip over it. It was worth it to end that dumb discussion about Becca.
Blindside05
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I'm confused on what you're saying. You're saying Hoyt knew nothing after Tom died? But Tom died after Julie escaped

I took it as Hoyt didn't know about the car accident involving Isabel bc he was away. But did know about Julie and the pink room. Why else would he threaten Purple about leaving it alone?

I'm gonna have to rewatch to clear all this up
benchmark
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

gonemaroon said:

I was figuring that they maybe just passed away with no relatives younger?

Yes.... so Julie escaped on or about 1990 actually. I think she escaped just before her fingerprints were found. And then Tom went on Tv . Explains her confused state when she called in about him not being her dad because she had been drugged for 10 years and fed lies by Isabel (dissociation issues). AGREE

Junius said Isabel killed herself shortly after. And then Tom must have visited before it could be changed or whatever so Harris did what he thought he should and killed Tom. AGREE - THOUGH THE JUNIUS (AND POSSIBLY ISABEL AND HOYT) WERE STILL ACTIVELY LOOKING FOR THE RUN AWAY JULIE DURING THE 1990 INVESTIGATION.

At this point you have to assume big man Hoyt sill knew nothing - but his daughter living down in some basement thing isolated from him and everybody is a little odd. But apparently that's how he handled all this - avoidance, travelling and drinking. And he knew the girl was out and felt it best just to leave it all alone - thus threatening Hays to drop it. DISAGREE. I THINK HOYT KNEW ALL SOON AFTER THE ABDUCTION. HE LOVED HIS DAUGHTER AND WANTED HER TO BE HAPPY. PART OF SETTING HARRIS UP IN A CUSH JOB AT HIS PLANT WAS TO THANK HIM FOR HIS HELP IN THE 1980 INVESTIGATION/FRAMING/COVERUP. IN HIS AGREEMENT WITH HAYS, HE AGREES TO STOP LOOKING FOR JULIE AND DROP HARRIS' DISAPPEARANCE IN EXCHANGE FOR HAYS DROPPING THE INVESTIGATION WHICH PROTECTS HIS DAUGHTER.

So perhaps with Isabel dead Hoyt just had the place closed up since it was no longer in use. And with Harris getting killed too the only person left that knew anything was Junius. And I think we are led to believe Hoyt died within a few years. I THINK THEY SAID HOYT DIED A FEW YEARS BEFORE THE 2015 TIMELINE.

Leaving no heirs it would have just been held in trust by the estate as mentioned. Odd that it sat there that long without being sold off or anything. But I guess that's what happened. I THINK IT HAD BEEN YEARS SINCE ANYONE HAD BEEN DOWN THERE, BUT ONLY A FEW YEARS SINCE HOYT DIED.

Zombie Jon Snow
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ok that makes more sense about Hoyt - that conversation was so weird and veiled wording.

But that still leaves it a mystery - and stupid really - as to why Hoyt would leave that basement place as is and not change it or destroy it or hide it in all those years after Julie left and Isabel died.

Blindside05
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Right in line with my thoughts
Southlake
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How did Amelia die? Huge question with absolutely no clue and Nic says the scene was cut to make room in the last episode? Even with some of the extraneous stuff in the last episode? She's the third protagonist with a very major part and her death is just vaguely referred to and cause completely left out?

No freekingway. Nic purposely left out how Amelia died to spur further post season conversations. I think he owes more to his viewership, particularly the Ladies and Gentlemen from Texags who did such an outstanding job of pretty much figuring everything out two episodes ago.
ItsA&InotA&M
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proc said:

The show cut short on me. After Greenland, and the family reunion, he was with Amelia in the bar in 90, what happened there?



That bar they were in was a private club: either VFW or American Legion.
When Amelia walked in and started ragging on Purple, his smarta$$ response was that he didn't recall her ever saying she was in the service.
WES2006AG
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Blindside05 said:

At the time I thought it meant he already knew about the room but forgot. Now I don't think so and feel like you do

Oh I enjoyed those subtle little things - like the transition from old to young in the car riding sequences. And there were several other times they did the reflection different. They also did that thing where the younger Hays reacts as if he saw something when the older Hays was thinking about that memory (the door moving when reading to the kids, the bar scene last night when he looks over to where older Hays was).

Just selling that time is a flat circle thing.


It was great visually but you would thing that it would have some sort of deeper meaning than just these same guys have been running these same roads at three different times.

Maybe I missed the deeper meaning though.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

My own theory is somewhat similar although i do not really have cousin Dan as a suspect per se.... I think he gets involved sort of after the fact.

I can't really figure out 2015 timeline that much and don't trust almost anything from Hays perspective there - is he imagining it all, is he faking at times, is his memory solid, are we seeing what happened or what he thinks happened, is he sitting in a crazy home and staring into a snowglobe and imagining it all. who knows.


There are 5 main culprits and possibly a 6th here of the original crime of kidnapping Julie and the death (accidental I believe) of Will; and one complicit (knowingly or unknowingly) organization.


  • Lucy Purcell mother of Julie and Will
  • Unnamed Hoyt daughter (UHD) the woman briefly shown in photo that lost a child (Hoyt's granddaughter) *EDIT we now know this was Isabel
  • Unnamed Black man (UBM) likely worked for Hoyt, and later UHD or was involved with her in some way. *EDIT we now know this was Junius:
  • Harris James cop who we now know covered up some stuff on 1980 investigation and planted the evidence that framed Woodard
  • Gerald Kindt prosecutor in 1980 and AG in 1990
  • Dan "cousin" might only be after the fact

The complicit organization is the foundation set up by the Hoyt's.

Theory:

Isabel lost her child and is distraught for years. Junius worked at the plant for years, was injured sometime and ends up (maybe as a settlement) in the employ of Isabel and the family/company take good care of him. She instructs Junius who she trusts implicitly for some reason to find her a replacement child rather than go through adoptions. Junius knows Lucy from the plant, knows she is in an unhappy home, knows she might want better for her kids and could be bought off possibly if she believed her daughter (who bears some resemblance to the missing child) would go to a much better home. Lucy knowing the child is not Tom's accepts this idea and arranges for the kids to meet the "aunt" in the field several times to get to know her and bribing will especially with new toys, games, etc.. Junius buys those dolls for example. Lucy figures Will stays with his dad and Julie gets a better life and she gets out of motherhood and all that she hates with some cash to live the life she wants. They are instructed not to tell their dad. In fact Lucy may convince Julie that Isabel is really her mom and not herself and Tom. Isabel and Junius are the two seen by the farmer in the area a few times in the "new" brown sedan. They go out there to meet the kids junius stands watch and plans the abduction eventually. The peephole was where Will passed little notes rolled up to Julie he was very protective of her. Eventually they decide to take Julie once trust has been established but they want a plausible story for Will and while he is distracted playing the game she disappears. Will is distraught and looking for his sister although somewhat casually (asking Freddy if he has seen her) so it does not appear she was snatched violently. In his search though Will falls or is chased by Freddy and hits his head and dies. Lucy and Junius go back looking for Will and find him. Lucy is upset but they can't undo what they've done already so she and Junius place him in the peaceful repose in the cave. And I think Julie was shown he was ok and "resting" before she leaves for good. Later Lucy writes the note as a way (she thinks) of giving Tom some peace of mind about Julie.

Meanwhile the investigation begins and the Hoyt family being powerful in the area owns certain cops (Harris) and the prosecutor Kindt. And they use that to make the case fail in certain ways. Harris interviews the farmer and some neighbors but leaves key things out of reports. He also plants the evidence of the sweater and backpack after the fact at Woodard's house. Kindt may be a lover of Isabel or they own him some way and he does his part to derail the investigation as well and close the book on Woodard quickly without argument. And the foundation (directed by Hoyt directly or through his daughter Isabel) acts like it helps but their actions only lead to hundreds of false leads that distract from the truth. Perhaps the organization is in on it they may act to place at risk girls/women with wealthy families at the direction of the crazed Isabel who thinks they are doing good for people.

Prior to 1990 Lucy hightailed it out of town to Vegas and cousin Dan showed up there too eventually they were probably lovers before or he just knew she had money. He may also know certain things but I doubt he was in on it except to stay quiet and they could be together. Or he is simply opportunistic. Lucy blows the money mostly in Vegas gambling and on drugs and she finally ODs. And he either knows or was told about it by Lucy before she dies. Dan tries to extort Isabel for more money so he is killed by Junius cleaning up the mess again and dumped in a quarry in Missouri.

In 1990 Julie shows up in the pharmacy and with the fingerprints and this reopens everything of course. Somehow she escaped the family and has been living as a drifter for a while. She does not know her brother is dead or her mother Lucy and fears returning to her "real" family that she thinks sold her out to this fake family. Her call and recording was talking about AG Kindt (might be lover of Isabel) and him pretending to be her father. She wasn't talking about Tom actually. Kindt was standing right next to Tom in that video. And her mention of her "aunt" is referring to Isabel or Lucy not sure which way they convinced her or brainwashed her. In looking into it again Hays and West discover the cover up by Harris. They track him down and kill him in an act of vigilante justice - this is the part they refer to when they say what "they did" in 1990. They may in fact kill Junius also. Hoyt knows what happened but not the details his concern was his daughter and he keeps her out of it they got some justice and it goes dormant again.


Well I got quite a bit right but missed on a few things. What I got right (more or less) is bolded above I replaced the UHD and UBM with Isabel and junius now that we know their names..

What I got wrong was mostly minor:

Minor: I thought Isabel likely instructed Junius to find the girl - but it was actually Isabel that spotted her at the corporate picnic, her obsession caused Junius to seek out her mom Lucy and arrange play dates. And it wasn't some plot to take Julie (except in Isabel's head).

Minor: Lucy did rationalize things about Julie going with the Hoyts and Will like I thought - but after the fact not before - it wasn't anything but playing with her until Isabel tried to grab Julie and Will was killed accidentally. Once it was done Lucy just took more money.

Major: Lucy's death. I thought she legit OD'd. But Harris took her out. It was related to trying to extort more money though which I assumed Dan had done (he may have or was just there when Lucy did).

Major: I thought Kindt was involved here - I'm still not convinced that he wasn't but we were not shown that - seemed so eager to close the case every time but maybe that was just him or maybe it was pressure from the Hoyts but not where he was in on it.

Minor: The foundation of the Hoyt's does not appear to be involved - just worked out for them that their involvement caused more distraction in the case.

Minor: Dan - well I was right that he was not directly involved, only basically living off Lucy and the money in Vegas. but I suspected he was killed by Junius and that appears to not be the case. I can only assume now that Harris did that along with killing Tom.

Minor: Julie's confusion about her family is now explainable by the drugs they gave her and lies Isabel told for years. I thought it was just brainwashing and/or she was talking about Kindt.


Basically almost everything I had wrong had to do with the mental states of some of the unknown characters:
Isabel - had no idea she was basically being treated for psychosis with Lithium
Junius - so I thought he was more acting on her orders as opposed to a caretaker for her
Julie - had no idea she was being drugged so a lot of her actions were unknown




Southlake
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Nice job, ZJS!

And, one more time: thanks for all the posters for being cool and respectful of everybody's theories and questions!

Really enjoyed the interaction.
Shelton98
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I just rewatched the car scene with Becca.... and Hays' hand was most definitely not white. Also, even though Roland didn't verbally acknowledge Becca in the front porch seen.... he did look over and make eye contact with her. So I'm not buying into that theory at all.

Now, in watching it last night there was one instant when I thought we were going to see something semi mind-bending. When Hays hands Henry the piece of paper with Julie's address on it.... Henry crumbles it up and starts to open a kitchen drawer to throw it in. I seriously thought they were fixing to show several pieces of paper in that drawer with the same address on them. I'm glad they didn't go there.
InternetFan02
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-no connections to the occult..."we just wanted to play with them...so I bought some dolls and toys" I guess D&D was just a fun random game to play with the one eyed black dude in the woods

-Will dies when pushed away and falling into a rock...not a ritualistic killing

-no pedophile gangs run by the elite...looking forward to season 4 trying out that schtick again

-in the end it was a reverse Gone Baby Gone strung out over 8 hours, but with a better signature line from the Mom I have the soul of a *****
oragator
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None of the stories have been about the actual villain in the end, they are vehicles to delve into the psyche of the cops and the way a crime splits people apart. They are the interest for the writers, and they do a great job of it. Nothing will ever beat nihilist MM and the allegory they used, but as far as total portraits, this season was right there.
InternetFan02
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Agreed and discussing the plot twists are what drives this thread to be 22 pages instead of a purely character driven show like the Deuce getting 2 pages. You can have it both ways with this show
Bunk Moreland
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I could post about the deuece all day but I feel like it's a subject matter a lot of folks don't want to openly discuss even on an anonymous forum for whatever reason. It's an incredible show.
claym711
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Compared to the rest of the season, that finale was terrible. Not only was the mystery horribly anticlimactic, but the idea that the mother would not have broken and told all is beyond reasonable belief. Then you have no explanation for the wife's death whatsoever - that's laughably bad.
Shelton98
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The biggest mystery of season 3, ep 8 (to me anyhow), is how Junius Watts receding hairline didn't move at all between 1980 and 2015.
Nagler
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Quote:

but the idea that the mother would not have broken and told all is beyond reasonable belief.
Pretty easy to believe that if you think people are looking for you then you're going to keep quiet.
Loaded
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claym711 said:

but the idea that the mother would not have broken and told all is beyond reasonable belief.
Harris James going out to Vegas ended the possibility of her breaking and spilling the beans.
OldArmy71
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Did we decide that the dead white guy in Purple's vision that time was Harris?
Noblemen06
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Wheatables02 said:

He was upset about losing his partner. It was the only person in his life at the time that he loved. He was likely done with that girl and he found the love of a dog soon after the fight. The future would show us his only loves were his dogs until Hays reappeared and they resumed working on the case.

"What about us?" he asked when Hays was quitting.
I think your timelines are mixed up; the bar fight happened in '90 and the "breakup" happened in '80. I took the bar fight as Roland being completely f'd up about killing a man and wanting to either physically punish himself for it or to get himself killed outright. The dog coming up to him while he was in tears was resolving how/why Roland became a recluse until 2015.
Zombie Jon Snow
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I wonder how a true timeline version of this story would work..... I mean I definitely think it would not be great as a first viewing. But I wonder if I might like to see that now.

They released a Godfather I and II version with the timelines in order and I liked that a lot. But it wasn't such a mystery. It also added in deleted scenes. It was a 7 hour thing called Godfather Epic on HBO. I watched it in 2 sittings.

If they did this chronologically and with those deleted scenes it would be interesting at least.

DannyDuberstein
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I thought they did a decent job of wrapping it up. I really enjoyed the characters, but I'm struggling a bit at how farfetched the underlying kidnapping/raising scenario was, and that a mystery that lasted 35 years and tore people apart ends with a tidy kitchen table explanation of it all. That seemed a little Scooby Doo-ish.
Blindside05
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Yea, I still don't understand why the higher-ups wanted the 80s and 90s investigations to be wrapped up so quickly when there was clearly aspects of the case that didn't add up
Nagler
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Blindside05 said:

Yea, I still don't understand why the higher-ups wanted the 80s and 90s investigations to be wrapped up so quickly when there was clearly aspects of the case that didn't add up

Hoyt putting pressure on them?
Bunk Moreland
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DannyDuberstein said:

I thought they did a decent job of wrapping it up. I really enjoyed the characters, but I'm struggling a bit at how farfetched the underlying kidnapping/raising scenario was, and that a mystery that lasted 35 years and tore people apart ends with a tidy kitchen table explanation of it all. That seemed a little Scooby Doo-ish.

Agree. I was hoping that they would have ended the season with Hays somehow reflecting on the conversation with the one eye'd man acknowledging that it all got answered and then Amelia dropping one final "that's what they want you to think." Would have been pretty creepy if done right.

BQ78
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So why were little Julie's fingerprints on file with law enforcement?

I know I'm over analyzing but still...

Guess it could have been a school safety thing but my kids came home with theirs and I doubt mom would have given them to the police knowing what she knew.
Blindside05
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Nagler said:

Blindside05 said:

Yea, I still don't understand why the higher-ups wanted the 80s and 90s investigations to be wrapped up so quickly when there was clearly aspects of the case that didn't add up

Hoyt putting pressure on them?


You saying that's why or giving a theory?

Hoyt put pressure on Purple, we know that. But outside of Harris, I don't remember any tie-in with Hoyt and the people involved with the investigation. Am I forgetting or missing something that showed Hoyt's pressure to close the case?
WES2006AG
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BQ78 said:

So why were little Julie's fingerprints on file with law enforcement?

I know I'm over analyzing but still...

Guess it could have been a school safety thing but my kids came home with theirs and I doubt mom would have given them to the police knowing what she knew.
I am sure they pulled her fingerprints from things around her house while investigating when she first went missing.
Wheatables02
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You're right. I think I mixed up the girl he was dating in 1990 and placed it in 1980. However I truly think he was upset about his partner not giving into the command, therefore being reassigned. That and not truly solving the case.
Wheatables02
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Blindside05 said:

Yea, I still don't understand why the higher-ups wanted the 80s and 90s investigations to be wrapped up so quickly when there was clearly aspects of the case that didn't add up


Political pressure caused by media and higher ups in the department to restore a feeling of safety to the community.

Add in the DA and there is a lot of pressure to close the case and restore public trust. Also the DA didn't want to reopen it because they already had a posthomous conviction on Woodard. That would mean possibly retrying a case and losing.
Noblemen06
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I think the DA was trying to find easy answers to a publicly embarrassing mystery in both decades. He found them in a palatable scapegoat in both eras that also put to bed other scandals (the firefight and the father's "suicide"). Granted, I think the fabricated suicide note was affiliated with Hoyt but I don't think that was a conspiracy; I just think it was convenient enough for the DA to put an end to it.

BowSowy
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Blindside05 said:

Nagler said:

Blindside05 said:

Yea, I still don't understand why the higher-ups wanted the 80s and 90s investigations to be wrapped up so quickly when there was clearly aspects of the case that didn't add up

Hoyt putting pressure on them?


You saying that's why or giving a theory?

Hoyt put pressure on Purple, we know that. But outside of Harris, I don't remember any tie-in with Hoyt and the people involved with the investigation. Am I forgetting or missing something that showed Hoyt's pressure to close the case?
From what I gather - Harris planted evidence to frame Woodard. Woodard was an easy scapegoat especially considering he blew up and shot at police officers. The DA (knowing he wanted to run for office) wanted to get the case tied up in a way that would appease the public.

Ten years later the investigation opens up and the DA (now state attorney) puts pressure on the police office to conclude the same findings from a decade earlier, so he doesn't look bad. Once Tom "kills himself" and "admits" to the crimes, it was again a situation of tidying up the case quickly.
Boo Weekley
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I really enjoyed this season but didn't feel nearly as "complete" or fulfilling as Season 1 imo. I just think ideally it should have been 1-2 episodes longer.
benchmark
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OldArmy71 said:

Did we decide that the dead white guy in Purple's vision that time was Harris?
Yes, I decided it was Harris. LOL Seriously, I studied it quite a bit and I'm pretty sure that's who is was. I kept comparing the chest wound, which side his hair was parted on, ears stick out a bit., etc. and he's the best match. Unless someone gives me evidence otherwise.
 
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