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Vertical dynamic deflection of south 2nd deck.

189,578 Views | 648 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by The Collective
Ridge14
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quote:
http://sem-proceedings.com/25i/sem.org-IMAC-XXV-s36p01-Analysis-Coordinated-Crowd-Vibration-Levels-Stadium-Structure.pdf

Fairly enlightening article for those that know how to read here.
"As stadium managers encourage such crowd participation, it is important that they also recognize the potential consequences of such coordinated crowd motion."

"Stadium managers should be aware there is a potential for serviceability issues."


Good job zoo
AgEngineer72
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AG
To the goofball who said PEs didn't offer proof of credentials- not sure who you are or why anyone has any reason to try to convince you but you can just look them up on the Texas P.E. site if you need to know. It's public information readily available on line.

I too am a Texas P.E. (look me up if you need to) and if I have a concern such as expressed by the OP I will notify the liable party in writing (email is generaly ok) and make sure I include vocabulary about safety and liability. That always gets a response. If an entity's legal department is copied there will be action but you may not know it for a while, if at all. Along the same lines, the absence of a response from previous notifications doesn't mean it's being ignored but follow up is appropriate.
Philip J Fry
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AG
So your first approach typically isn't going straight to the media to voice your concerns?
weeza
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AG
quote:
A bunch of guys who say they're PEs, without offering any proof of their credentials.
But that speak a language with which most of us are totally unfamiliar? I'll take them at their word that they are who they say they are rather than relying on some numbnuts casting doubt.
anaggieshusband
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Did they do anything about those gaps in the fence at the top of the SEZ?
AgEngineer72
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AG
No Mr. Fry, I would not start with the media. There's an appropriate and professional way to enquire and to start a process. Blasting out criticsm and casting doubt on a professional's thoroughness without first learning what they did and what they considered seems pretty bush league. Certainly ok to ask but not to push it over the top first thing.

I also found TMelton's comments interesting in that he suggested the design be reviewed by an "outside" engineer. Unless I'm totally in left field, all design of a major structural project for a public institution would be performed by an arms-length, independent PE design firm registered in the State of Texas. Further, there is also likely a 3rd party, independent professional engineering firm to further represent the Owner for design and construction oversight.
94chem
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quote:
Do you guys really think nobody at A&M is aware of this and they need a bunch of idiots from the Zoo on Texags to make them aware? This thread went full retard right out of the gates.


I'm sure that Texas A&M has never experienced a totally preventable accident that occurred because of poor design and failure to respond to warnings.
AgEngineer72
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AG
One other thought- all this discussion on the forum here IS in the media and is legally discoverable should something happen. I'm not sure what form it may take but I fully expect the designer will take action to avoid the risk of being accused of ignoring legitimate professional concerns. Extrapolating this, I would be surprised if the University responded at all. They paid big money for the designer to get it right, warrant their design, and to assume the design liability. They will not likely say anything that might transfer liability back to TAMU.
Kramer
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AG
quote:
quote:
Do you guys really think nobody at A&M is aware of this and they need a bunch of idiots from the Zoo on Texags to make them aware? This thread went full retard right out of the gates.


I'm sure that Texas A&M has never experienced a totally preventable accident that occurred because of poor design and failure to respond to warnings.


Well played.

In all fairness, I would expect a FULL inspection of all new construction in the offseason. It's just prudent risk management. It's one thing to estimate forces and issues. It's another to apply those in the real world. Could be nothing, but you've got the time and tools to handle it now. So do it.
3rd Generation Ag
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AG
Suggest you all write people who can do something, the AD, the 12th man, the university regents.
Philip J Fry
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AG
quote:
One other thought- all this discussion on the forum here IS in the media and is legally discoverable should something happen. I'm not sure what form it may take but I fully expect the designer will take action to avoid the risk of being accused of ignoring legitimate professional concerns. Extrapolating this, I would be surprised if the University responded at all. They paid big money for the designer to get it right, warrant their design, and to assume the design liability. They will not likely say anything that might transfer liability back to TAMU.


This is my issue with the OPs approach. He might as well have gone straight to the news media....without finding out ANY of the facts or giving the admin a chance to respond.
TexasAggie_02
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
Do you guys really think nobody at A&M is aware of this and they need a bunch of idiots from the Zoo on Texags to make them aware? This thread went full retard right out of the gates.


I'm sure that Texas A&M has never experienced a totally preventable accident that occurred because of poor design and failure to respond to warnings.


Well played.



Yep, don't forget the new equestrian center collapsed during construction.
AgEngineer72
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AG
PJF- kinda thought that too. A reasonable technical discussion is enjoyale but this thread has escalated well beyond that to apparent conlusions without knowing the facts or basis of design. Even the technical discussion is based on assumptions of dimensions, movements, and structural arrangement. The estimates of vertical deflection seem very large- my experience is that a 2" movement is huge in that kind of structure; 6"-12" seem excessive. But I wasnt there.
heddy Lamarr
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AG
I don't much about engineering stuff but I do know OPs username has potential
MagnumLoad
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Thank you for all the good and useful comments. Thank you MaterialAg for your help on this. I plan to send correspondence to the university and the system this week.

Mr. Fry, I raised the question because the vertical amplitudes were disturbing and were continuing to increase until folks realized and stopped bouncing. I have sat in most all areas of Kyle Field, and never experienced anything like it. It was and is just that however, a question. I stated that the answer may very well be that the section is fine and safe for the loading it experienced. I hope that is the case, but it should be looked at critically, not superficially. I will pose that question in as many and all ways available to get action and an answer, because I am concerned for the safety of Aggies and other fans in and below the second deck south end, and could not care less about professional sensitivities,

As to the coming new west side, the geometry, mass distribution, and member section properties are completely different from the south end, second deck structure, which appears to be cantilevered with an edge beam (hence possibly greater amplitudes near the center section). I noticed the south end, second deck structural config. on the construction cams last spring and summer. It looked to be fairly unique.

Similar flexural movement could be occuring near the top of the south end third deck, as noted by others herein. There looks to be a diagonal braced cantilever near the top of that deck. I have no personal experience sitting there.

Some straight forward questions and comments follow. No engineering company should be reluctant to investigate and address the concerns raised in this thread by myself and others.

Was the structure in question, particularly the south end second deck, analyzed for full occupancy with everyone bouncing to Sandstorm or to anything with similar frequency, a little over 2 cycles per second (136 cpm)? (I would look at a range of frequencies around that center frequency.)

If it was so analyzed, what were the results in terms of maximum amplitude of motion and maximum stress, vs. allowables (stress ratios)?

What are the actual amplitudes that are occurring ( as best as can be determined from available video )?
(empirical data can confirm or raise questions re analysis and design, or as to whether or not construction was consistent with the design)

If design analysis DID NOT specifically include such loading, it should now be done.

If a problem is identified, it should be corrected with structural stiffening and/or dampers.

If there is not a problem, issue a statement and perhaps signage at Kyle to that effect
(enjoy the bounce

There is no place for ego or vanity here, professional or otherwise.

Shelby Meadows, PE

(there, you know who I am now; I have always felt the need for anonymity on this board for a number of reasons, but this is big enough to override any concerns about privacy)
Ridge14
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Thanks Shelby
GarryowenAg
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AG
Thanks for the write-up
bobbranco
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AG
quote:
quote:
A bunch of guys who say they're PEs, without offering any proof of their credentials.
quote:
All I can say is tell the admin. to get some skilled outsside engineers in there immediately and there could be a possible lawsuit soon..
T. June Melton, PE
http://

quote:
The company president, Mr. T. June Melton PE, BS ArE, MSE, has over 35 years experience as a licensed professional engineer. He is currently licensed to practice in Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Louisiana, Georgia, Colorado, Mississippi, Utah, North Carolina and Kentucky. He is also eligible to become licensed as a professional engineer in additional states through the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying.
Reading fail much?


An engineer with residential inspection / litigation background is going to save the day!

reb,
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AG
^
MagnumLoad
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Neglected to add that an inspection of the critical support members should be conducted.
94chem
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Good, except it's "couldn't care less" and "anonymity."
Philip J Fry
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AG
Except NONE of this should be done in the court of public opinion. If, as a PE with 35 years of experience, you have valid concerns over the safety of a structure, you should be going to the powers that be instead of spewing stuff on an Internet message board. None of what you said changes the fact that you don't know diddly about their analytical assumptions or whether they are actually already acting behind the scenes.
MagnumLoad
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Not spewing ace, asking legitimate questions, Wil do so here as well as to the responsible parties because the questions need to be answered. I will pose the questions the same,
unvarnished, here and to officials.

The stadium serves the public BTW, so it is ok to raise questions in a public forum. No need for secrecy. Also never allow those with a vested interest and reputation to protect to self police. SOME may not be objective.
Philip J Fry
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AG
They might be legitimate questions, but that's not exactly a professional way of going about it. Why didn't you go straight to ABC news with your concerns? There's not much difference at this point between texags and what makes it into the Houston Chronicle.

You are winding up the public over something that may not even be an issue.
jamaggie06
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AG
From what I've seen (even took a picture of the massive W36 columns), the deck is upported by cantilever action off the column. The remaining super structure looked to be a moment frame. While the deflection may be a comfort issue, I would be surprised if it was indeed a strength issue.

At this time, going off nothing more than what I have seen from my two visits to the stadium (season tickets in the SE corner) the majority of the deflection is probably caused by support rotation back at the intersection of the cantilver memmbers to the main columns. I'm guessing the back span members are where the primary stiffness issue is. If it is indeed a problem, tuned dampers or sturctural modifications to the back span members increasing their stiffness could potentially remedy the problem. The back span members are large sloped beams that frame upwards and appeared to be very accessible for any remedial work if necessary.

Licensed PE (TX), licensed SE (IL) and a huge nerd for structural dynamics and stability.
MagnumLoad
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Thanks jam. Yeh I saw that as well. It could very well be only a comfort issue. The concerning factor was the continued increase in amplitude as bouncing continued. Typical cantilever delta is L/240. I don't know the L of the cantilever, but the sections vary from 11 to 14 rows I think. Based on 2.5' rows that is say 35 feet. The connection is probably somewhat behind the top of the deck. Even if the cantilever is 60', L/240 would be 3 inches.

Thank you for the English critique 94chem. You are correct.
jamaggie06
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AG
Yep. And if the connection point back at the column location is rotating as little as a 1/2 of a degree, there's 3.5" worth of deflection at the end of a 35' cantilver.

Given that there was such a large amount of deflection and given that it was not permanent, the structure remained in the elastic range, if what is being reported is true, I'd say I'm 75% confident that this is the issue. The backspan lacks sufficient stiffness. I'd don't think the W36x361 (looked back at my photos and notes, based on estimated depth, flange width and thickness) are likely not the primary contributing factor.

Edit: nope the beams don't quite do that. Can't tell from my two photos. I was focusing on the big ass columns when i took them.
taquache02
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Officer Slater
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Engineers
West-0-ag
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quote:
What's the frequency, Kenneth.





I about lost it

LatinAggie1997
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AG
quote:
Engineers
MagnumLoad
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Jam, L/240 for 35 feet is only 1.75". 3.5" is twice that. Really need someone to find some good video to try and determine actual movement.
Fitch
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AG
Not too far off with the estimate of 35'.

There are 12 rows at 2.75' deep apiece, plus a 3' row at the base, totaling 36', which is the total x-distance of the seating raker. The raker connects to the supporting column of the cantilever truss at the top of the raker, which also intersects with the horizontal member that creates the concourse area.

The horizontal member of the truss connects about 13' down from the top of the column, and intersects with the raker about 20' away.

I'll say for the record that I've heard through the grapevine that the entire stadium was engineered to be over-reinforced given that the action the war hymn creates is something that's hard to model. The philosophy has always been "better safe than sorry" and we're not cutting corners or doing much of any VE. The only items I'm aware of that have been VE'd or dropped have been aesthetics like the precast brick on the back of the SEZ.

I'm not involved with the project in any capacity, am not an engineer, so I'm sort of resigned to just nod and take y'alls word for it. I don't have a worry at all about the stadium, but I do think that if this is going to be a recurring point of discomfort it would behove the administrators to give these concerns a second look and make a public assurance.
TexasAggie_02
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AG
quote:
Except NONE of this should be done in the court of public opinion. If, as a PE with 35 years of experience, you have valid concerns over the safety of a structure, you should be going to the powers that be instead of spewing stuff on an Internet message board.
yes, b/c leaving it "to the experts" and "in house" worked so well in regards to the Spirit of '02. The court of public opinion got it back on the field.
Philip J Fry
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AG
Uhhh. No. Structural stability and the Spirit of 02 are two completely different issues. Miles apart.
 
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