It's like that everywhere.....GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
Is Abbott lifting the state wide mask mandate today?
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Last: 3 yr ago by Captain Pablo
Oh, it will loosen up once people start getting their vaccines.Capitol Ag said:
What I think is kind of funny is that certain retailers have been arguing that removing the mandate removed the "authority" that their employees had to enforce the mask mandate. Now that certain companies wish to keep their own mandate instated, it's more difficult for them to enforce without government teeth, so to speak. I find that argument flawed personally. To me, having worked at a gym as a trainer when the mandate was established, we viewed the mandate as an extra burden of enforcement that we should not have to bear. We were not deputized to enforce law and had regular jobs that we needed to focus on, especially given the fact that in our industry, closures forced a lot of us into holes in terms of getting clients and signing up members plus not losing the ones we already had.
To me the simple solution is for business to end their masking policies overall. If it is just now "too difficult" to enforce such a policy without the state backing it up (businesses own words), the very easy solution is just don't have one. I think eventually over the next few months with a lot of us completely safe to those around us b/c we are vaccinated, this is what we will see. Businesses right now are being reactive. They don't want to appear insensitive. But if they can just say it's impossible to enforce and still do their jobs, it gives them an out.
Memorial Day (ish), things will be relatively open with no masks.
I agree. Since that post, while some retail still enforce the same, a lot more places are not enforcing a mask policy. More and more people are not masking when out. As you stated, at this rate, by Memorial Day, many more places will ease up. I think one of the keys will be more people entering stores without masks. Sure, if a small number enter it is easy to enforce and there still maybe customers who feel uncomfortable either confronting the non mask wearer or telling the manager. That changes when 30 or more % start to enter maskless. At that point I feel retailers will just throw their hands up and say "oh well, don't worry about it. Or just be relieved that now they can legitimately state that there are just too many people not masking to try to enforce a policy.Tex117 said:Oh, it will loosen up once people start getting their vaccines.Capitol Ag said:
What I think is kind of funny is that certain retailers have been arguing that removing the mandate removed the "authority" that their employees had to enforce the mask mandate. Now that certain companies wish to keep their own mandate instated, it's more difficult for them to enforce without government teeth, so to speak. I find that argument flawed personally. To me, having worked at a gym as a trainer when the mandate was established, we viewed the mandate as an extra burden of enforcement that we should not have to bear. We were not deputized to enforce law and had regular jobs that we needed to focus on, especially given the fact that in our industry, closures forced a lot of us into holes in terms of getting clients and signing up members plus not losing the ones we already had.
To me the simple solution is for business to end their masking policies overall. If it is just now "too difficult" to enforce such a policy without the state backing it up (businesses own words), the very easy solution is just don't have one. I think eventually over the next few months with a lot of us completely safe to those around us b/c we are vaccinated, this is what we will see. Businesses right now are being reactive. They don't want to appear insensitive. But if they can just say it's impossible to enforce and still do their jobs, it gives them an out.
Memorial Day (ish), things will be relatively open with no masks.
Or maybe that this is a complex situation with more than just one variable. Weird.GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
Some variation of this for sure.Capitol Ag said:I agree. Since that post, while some retail still enforce the same, a lot more places are not enforcing a mask policy. More and more people are not masking when out. As you stated, at this rate, by Memorial Day, many more places will ease up. I think one of the keys will be more people entering stores without masks. Sure, if a small number enter it is easy to enforce and there still maybe customers who feel uncomfortable either confronting the non mask wearer or telling the manager. That changes when 30 or more % start to enter maskless. At that point I feel retailers will just throw their hands up and say "oh well, don't worry about it. Or just be relieved that now they can legitimately state that there are just too many people not masking to try to enforce a policy.Tex117 said:Oh, it will loosen up once people start getting their vaccines.Capitol Ag said:
What I think is kind of funny is that certain retailers have been arguing that removing the mandate removed the "authority" that their employees had to enforce the mask mandate. Now that certain companies wish to keep their own mandate instated, it's more difficult for them to enforce without government teeth, so to speak. I find that argument flawed personally. To me, having worked at a gym as a trainer when the mandate was established, we viewed the mandate as an extra burden of enforcement that we should not have to bear. We were not deputized to enforce law and had regular jobs that we needed to focus on, especially given the fact that in our industry, closures forced a lot of us into holes in terms of getting clients and signing up members plus not losing the ones we already had.
To me the simple solution is for business to end their masking policies overall. If it is just now "too difficult" to enforce such a policy without the state backing it up (businesses own words), the very easy solution is just don't have one. I think eventually over the next few months with a lot of us completely safe to those around us b/c we are vaccinated, this is what we will see. Businesses right now are being reactive. They don't want to appear insensitive. But if they can just say it's impossible to enforce and still do their jobs, it gives them an out.
Memorial Day (ish), things will be relatively open with no masks.
(Probably once business are comfortable that the majority of their employees that want a vaccine have received one, they will probably open it all up). In the end, its a matter of people that want the vaccine have received one. Once that occurs, I think all this theater will disappear quickly. The mindset will change.
Some will still hold on, but between the readily available vaccine, a scorching Texas summer, those masks are coming off.
not to over politicize an already political thread, but somebody was going over the FL/CA article and mentioned that their numbers were about the same. The pro-mask/lockdown argument was, "see Florida didn't do 'great' or better than anybody. they still had about average deaths."GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
the counter-argument was "Florida being middle of the pack is kinda the point. They removed restrictions and then stayed average instead of spiking."
there are legit people mad that Texas is not spiking a month later to get their "told you so's" and people pointing and laughing and blue states that are currently spiking and saying "told you so."
both left and right are hovering over their keyboards hoping the other side spikes first and that's a sad place to be in.
Or maybe this is all just Brownian motion.
...nobody ever seems to say that, though.
...nobody ever seems to say that, though.
#CertifiedSIP
[Check your email. - Staff]
fig96 said:Or maybe that this is a complex situation with more than just one variable. Weird.GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
No doubt. There doesn't seem to be any obvious impact from "lockdowns" and mask wearing except for tanking the economy and hurting people not at risk. Fortunately we are on our way to normalcy even if some people are being brought along kicking and screaming (and wearing a mask)
GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
That line of thinking conveniently omits Independent Variables like the millions of vaccines administered
BBQ4Me said:GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
That line of thinking conveniently omits Independent Variables like the millions of vaccines administered
Or maybe this line of thinking says, let's look at the data available and see which independent variables have an impact (vaccines) and which independent variables are theatre (masks). I would be willing to bet if you looked on a graph you would be able to see a trend shift at the same time vaccines started getting rolled out. No such shift occurs with mask mandates or lockdowns.
Well, except for the times before vaccines were available and we can compare different states approaches and outcomes.
BBQ4Me said:GAC06 said:
Looking at case graphs, no one can tell when masks were required or the mandate was lifted. It's almost like masks were pointless theater the whole time. Weird.
That line of thinking conveniently omits Independent Variables like the millions of vaccines administered
Except if you end the graph before any vaccines were distributed you'd have the same results.
I really have no desire to dive into this debate, but acting like masks have never had any effect is at least as silly as acting like they're the only thing we need to do. Granted this is from about 6 months ago, but there's several obvious trends we saw then.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/21546014/mask-mandates-coronavirus-covid-19
And again, there's a number of variables that evolved over time so you're never going to be able to point to any one moment in support of any particular action. I'll leave this here and check back later to learn why all this data is wrong and all the data supporting other positions is right
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/21546014/mask-mandates-coronavirus-covid-19
And again, there's a number of variables that evolved over time so you're never going to be able to point to any one moment in support of any particular action. I'll leave this here and check back later to learn why all this data is wrong and all the data supporting other positions is right
fig96 said:
I really have no desire to dive into this debate, but acting like masks have never had any effect is at least as silly as acting like they're the only thing we need to do. Granted this is from about 6 months ago, but there's several obvious trends we saw then.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/21546014/mask-mandates-coronavirus-covid-19
And again, there's a number of variables that evolved over time so you're never going to be able to point to any one moment in support of any particular action. I'll leave this here and check back later to learn why all this data is wrong and all the data supporting other positions is right
Since this was only a snapshot of cases in October, you may notice that all the top states are in the north. I know some on here don't want to listen to climate/weather/seasonality as a factor, but the progression of the disease across the country in various waves is interesting.
On the other hand, if you look at total cases per capita (not single month snapshot) California tops the list. Given they were pretty early with masks and restrictions, that can't be explained by no mask mandate.
I would suggest if we do a principle component analysis across all jurisdictions, mask mandates may be a relatively small factor in explaining the variability.
Masks were minimal at best. The graph above is one snapshot in a period of time. Any number of other snapshots can paint a different picture.
That can be explained a easily as seasonality / regional, and potentially many other factors before assuming it was masks.
And even if you were a staunch believer in masks with no immunity, they become less and less necessary by the day moving forward. So now, that's all that matters when discussing masks moving forward. Many of us sucked it up despite our hatred for them and have worn them for a year now. The question is, are they even close to necessary moving forward to prevent the overwhelming of hospitals? Or has it now gone further than that, and become more of a virtue signal to who care's about others the most?
That can be explained a easily as seasonality / regional, and potentially many other factors before assuming it was masks.
And even if you were a staunch believer in masks with no immunity, they become less and less necessary by the day moving forward. So now, that's all that matters when discussing masks moving forward. Many of us sucked it up despite our hatred for them and have worn them for a year now. The question is, are they even close to necessary moving forward to prevent the overwhelming of hospitals? Or has it now gone further than that, and become more of a virtue signal to who care's about others the most?
As I said there's lots of variables, another example in the article looks at differences in counties in the same state that wouldn't have the climate change variables.
I'd also note that October isn't a month where we would generally have the massive temp variables between north and south like we would later in winter. But again, lots of moving parts, there are definitely regional issues to consider as well as population densities and other factors. The entire situation was mishandled from the top down without question.
I'd also note that October isn't a month where we would generally have the massive temp variables between north and south like we would later in winter. But again, lots of moving parts, there are definitely regional issues to consider as well as population densities and other factors. The entire situation was mishandled from the top down without question.
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
amercer said:
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
They absolutely don't work. Walk into a public restroom wearing one when someone is dropping a dirty poop bomb in the room. When you smell it you'll realize how ineffective your mask is. My wife's friend spent most of the last year hiding in her basement from Covid and double masked everywhere and never ate out but she got Covid grocery shopping while double masked.
Not sure I would go that far. October in Texas is still the tail end of summer before the first major cold front at the end of Oct or early Nov (average Texas Oct Temp ~80). North Dakota would already be experiencing freezes, at least overnight (average North Dakota Oct Temp ~40).fig96 said:
I'd also note that October isn't a month where we would generally have the massive temp variables between north and south like we would later in winter.
In other words, Texans are just starting to enjoy the cooler weather after the 100 degree days of September and would be spending increasing amount of time outside, but North Dakota is already bracing for freezes. I'm guessing North Dakotans are beginning to spend more time indoors in Oct, but not yet snowed in.
Actually, the one thing that is clear from the data is that there is spread is within households. So for the masks to actually work, you probably need to wear them at home around your family members.amercer said:
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
And, they don't do anything about the eyes. Virus entering the eyes is a real thing and they could either enter through the tissue surrounding the eyes or get washed into the nose/throat via the tear ducts.
The virus isn't magic. You catch it by being indoors, unmasked, around someone who has it.
Hey, here's my unscientific anecdote to retort. No one in my circle has tested positive in the last year. No double masking required, most people still going to work. Just staying away from being unmasked indoors with people outside the family.
Again, because it's not magic.
Again, because it's not magic.
Meanwhile in Michigan, which has had some of the most restrictive measures, they currently lead the nation cases / 100k for 7 cities in the top 10, and have cases rising significantly. The most in the nation actually.
Michigan is now at their highest number of cases since the peak in Nov 20.
Just watch Michigan go into another lockdown like Europe and Canada, because maybe it will work this time???Still makes no sense as they peaked Nov 20, prior to all the holidays and gatherings. That should be enough data.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/23/upshot/five-ways-to-monitor-coronavirus-outbreak-us.html
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/michigan/
Michigan is now at their highest number of cases since the peak in Nov 20.
Just watch Michigan go into another lockdown like Europe and Canada, because maybe it will work this time???Still makes no sense as they peaked Nov 20, prior to all the holidays and gatherings. That should be enough data.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/23/upshot/five-ways-to-monitor-coronavirus-outbreak-us.html
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/michigan/
ALSO, public restrooms are nasty even when there isn't a pandemic on, but let me get a little sciency for a minute here....
The small molecules that make up "truck stop poop stank" are about a thousand times smaller than virus particles, so your ability to smell the ass in the next stall says basically nothing about how well your mask is working.
The small molecules that make up "truck stop poop stank" are about a thousand times smaller than virus particles, so your ability to smell the ass in the next stall says basically nothing about how well your mask is working.
Well, you're first mistake was linking a study done by Vox. I'd trust a story from the National Enquirer over this worthless "news" site. They are about as unbiased as Rolling Stone or CNN.fig96 said:
I really have no desire to dive into this debate, but acting like masks have never had any effect is at least as silly as acting like they're the only thing we need to do. Granted this is from about 6 months ago, but there's several obvious trends we saw then.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/21546014/mask-mandates-coronavirus-covid-19
And again, there's a number of variables that evolved over time so you're never going to be able to point to any one moment in support of any particular action. I'll leave this here and check back later to learn why all this data is wrong and all the data supporting other positions is right
You catch is by being indoors, around someone who has it.amercer said:
The virus isn't magic. You catch it by being indoors, unmasked, around someone who has it.
The mask or no mask part is the debatable part at least, and minimal effectiveness at best.
And here's my anecdotal part. Not one family member of mine has tested positive, either. Spending plenty of time indoors unmasked around many different people.amercer said:
Hey, here's my unscientific anecdote to retort. No one in my circle has tested positive in the last year. No double masking required, most people still going to work. Just staying away from being unmasked indoors with people outside the family.
Again, because it's not magic.
There's actually a lot more to it. I think genetics, blood type, natural immunity, etc., play a far bigger role than a mask protecting you.
beerad12man said:And here's my anecdotal part. Not one family member of mine has tested positive, either. Spending plenty of time indoors unmasked around many different people.amercer said:
Hey, here's my unscientific anecdote to retort. No one in my circle has tested positive in the last year. No double masking required, most people still going to work. Just staying away from being unmasked indoors with people outside the family.
Again, because it's not magic.
There's actually a lot more to it. I think genetics, blood type, natural immunity, etc., play a far bigger role than a mask protecting you.
Almost everybody I know that caught it, caught it close proximity to family members or at a meal with friends.
The only major outliers I know about are Sturgis (which I'm sure had a lot of unsavory indoor activities anyways) and ACB's nomination ceremony. I'm sure I'm wrong but I havent had anybody in my circle contact trace back to a store, church, or outdoor activity. Our family has been quarantined 4 times and yet to catch it despite a couple of them being optimal circumstances (eating a meal around somebody who tested positive the next day.)
The only person I know of that couldn't figure out where he caught it was a kid on my son's basketball team. Best we could guess was that we played a homeschool team a week before and their entire team and fanbase didn't wear masks or social distance.
I put this in the Sweden thread but there's a little bit of mask stuff in this for both sides
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/swedens-pandemic-experiment
Well I don't know how one could argue with the science behind the restroom smell test.Dad said:amercer said:
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
They absolutely don't work. Walk into a public restroom wearing one when someone is dropping a dirty poop bomb in the room. When you smell it you'll realize how ineffective your mask is. My wife's friend spent most of the last year hiding in her basement from Covid and double masked everywhere and never ate out but she got Covid grocery shopping while double masked.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2020/06/29/its-all-about-size-why-experts-say-its-false-to-say-masks-dont-filter-out-coronavirus-because-odors-can-get-in/
fig96 said:Well I don't know how one could argue with the science behind the restroom smell test.Dad said:amercer said:
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
They absolutely don't work. Walk into a public restroom wearing one when someone is dropping a dirty poop bomb in the room. When you smell it you'll realize how ineffective your mask is. My wife's friend spent most of the last year hiding in her basement from Covid and double masked everywhere and never ate out but she got Covid grocery shopping while double masked.
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2020/06/29/its-all-about-size-why-experts-say-its-false-to-say-masks-dont-filter-out-coronavirus-because-odors-can-get-in/
I didn't click the link but I will give up the smell test argument based on particle size. What about the fact that these masks that 95% of us are wearing are not sealed air tight to the face so when you breathe in air bypasses the filter? I'm pretty sure a bigger particle can also go right by the filter just like a poo vapor.
Particle size has been covered to death, info is out there if you care to look it up.
As far as not being air tight, 100% agree and wouldn't trust anyone that says otherwise. I don't think anyone reputable has claimed that masks are completely effective, they're one piece of the puzzle.
As far as not being air tight, 100% agree and wouldn't trust anyone that says otherwise. I don't think anyone reputable has claimed that masks are completely effective, they're one piece of the puzzle.
Masks were the piece of the puzzle to spread awareness and "let" businesses reopen. They always were theater.
Yep. But when you have people like Dad or other posters who don't even know the difference between the molecular weight of a volatile thiol or amine vs the molecular weight of a virus trying to teach us science, you see how futile it is to argue.amercer said:
Masks absolutely work. But you have to actually follow the rules. That means wearing them whenever you are around people not from your own family. Outside, inside, over your mouth AND nose every time.
The only thing that's clear from the past year is that basically no one followed the rules. It didn't matter if they were pro lockdown or against, or pro mask or against, the rules were always for someone else. At this point TX and FL are just acknowledging reality.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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