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Stock Markets - Swing and Longer Term Trades

162,413 Views | 930 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Bob Knights Paper Hands
LOYAL AG
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Alternate perspective on China for this thread which is more long term oriented. China is a nation that is a ticking time bomb. It's demographics are poor with a population that is aging very rapidly. Prime earnings years are 30's to 50's, that's true for all nations. In those years your income is growing which means your consumption is growing. In the 20's you're generally trying find your footing and begin your career so late in three years you start growing economically but the entire age band isn't what the other three are. On the other end your 60's and above are years with declining consumption til eventually you are a net negative economically like you are from 0-20.

China has as many people is their 50's as their 30's. Both are larger by a lot than they have in their 40's and IIRC that group is larger than the 20's. I've seen it estimated that their total population peaks in 2035 and declines for the rest of the century. For a people that already don't understand basic economics (their socialists after all) that's a dire situation. Population growth is the #1 driver of economic growth and China is in a bad place in that regard.

My point here is just be careful over the long term with Chinese companies. 3-5 years is a good timeframe. Beyond that I'd start assuming the worst.
cageybee77
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Anybody here have a portfolio built on dividend income? If so, have any advice you're willing to share?
Ag13
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You sounds like a person who reads Peter Zeihan
cageybee77
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I was reading a financial statement of a Chinese company, can't remember which, and it they clearly state that they do not necessarily follow American GAAP principles. This may be a non-issue for day-traders, but made me tap the brakes a little because I'm not sure what it means for long-term investors (if anything)
Monywolf
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Look at $LK if you want to know what it means for U.S. investors
cageybee77
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Ok, sorry for the really newb question, but when I look for $LK on Barchart.com it doesn't exist. So, the $ must have some meaning that I haven't learned yet - googling says it's like a hashtag- but that doesn't help me find the company you're referring to. So what are you referring to? Thanks.
evan_aggie
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bmks270 said:

I have a counter perspective on NIO. I think all EV stocks are in a bubble, so I'm avoiding them. EVs priced as if they are larger than established OEMs who are all transitioning to electric.
I know they are hot right now, but my long term outlook the bubble risk is too high for my liking. For a short term hold, sure maybe.

It was like a year or two ago there were 400 new EV startups. There is just no way that isn't a bubble market. And the EV market caps have been inflated such that if you combine all of their market caps, they'd have to produce more EVs than cars on earth.


Agreed. But look at stocks beyond EV. Valuations are off the charts from normal pricing. What makes Tesla with 1200 PE or 800B. Amazon burned cash and had a higher PE in the past but the fundamental were there to the point the EPS is climbing.

Tesla leaped out to 10M lead in a 200M race and every other manufacture took note and started ramping up in response. Tesla isn't going to sell 5,000,000 cars. Their run up was largely supported by a $7,500 incentive which is now gone.

So long term, this isn't like Amazon. They are going to add a truck to the mix, but the scalability of price and value isn't going to likely beat Toyota or Ford.

AgPT06
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Long story short, lots of people lost money on what they thought was a great company. Luckin coffee. Turns out lots of shady unregulated accounting.
AgEng06
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cageybee77 said:

Ok, sorry for the really newb question, but when I look for $LK on Barchart.com it doesn't exist. So, the $ must have some meaning that I haven't learned yet - googling says it's like a hashtag- but that doesn't help me find the company you're referring to. So what are you referring to? Thanks.

The $ is just a way to denote he's referencing a stock ticker. The ticker is LK.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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People use the $ like a hashtag in front of stock names in posts to make it easier to see ticker names when you're scanning through threads. This is especially helpful for fast moving threads like the stock trading thread. If I'm not in $AAPL I can easily flip through the 3 pages per hour talking about AAPL calls failing.

$LK was this great story of a quick rise in a local company taking market share from a big chain (Starbucks) in high population density areas. Tons of exciting growth potential, until it came out they were cooking the books and not really making the profits they reported. There have been others, but I agree that the lack of international standard audit and accounting principles make me wary of any swing or longer holds on Chinese stocks. I typically avoid. I've had some in the past, but I'm usually quicker to take profits on those than stocks for companies in 'Murica.

A lot of $TSLA long-term investors say they are investing in more than an EV company. They think it will drive technology for all electric generation and storage areas. Also space exploration and other projects. That might happen but at this point that's already priced in so I have a hard time getting on board long-term investment there. I think even if the company does all of those things, we're still going to see a massive price correction before that happens, so I could wait and buy more shares then. The price is sky high because all of the TSLA cult investors have never lost money on it, so they hold no matter what. If we have a correction big enough for some to lose money, there will be some panic selling. Even if it just consolidates for 3-6 months and these folks see their money on the sidelines with the penny stocks and crypto companies making money, I think we'll see a TSLA sell off begin due to FOMO. No inside information, just my speculative take on the company.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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bmks270 said:


My parents rotated a large amount into VPU at the beginning of the year, vanguard utility index, it was beaten down with the covid market sell off and was paying a 3-4% dividend. Hadn't recovered as rapidly as everything else. And it was a way to reduce exposure to tech and large cap growth which have exploded recently. VPU was up today while other sectors were down, it's nice that it's price action doesn't have a strong correlation with tech which seem to dominate market behavior today.

This is the sorts of plays I'll be looking at for the wife's IRA. I use that one as a hedge against mine and my trading account. I had it mostly in small caps and small cap funds from about September of last year on. Those have done well and last month I started moving some of it back into large caps that had stagnated, like AAPL and AMZN. Those haven't moved much and since I'm trading more small caps and AAPL and AMZN recently this hasn't been a good hedge. So I'll likely move all or most of the small cap funds into utilities, airlines, and infrastructure related funds. Maybe energy as well.
LOYAL AG
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Ag13 said:

You sounds like a person who reads Peter Zeihan


Big fan of his. A lot of what he says I put in a category of "that's what I've been trying to say for years" which I'm sure is a common thing. He's just so clear and concise in his analysis and presentation.

There's actually a lot of data from several sources about how bad China's aging population problem really is. Zeihan has just done better than everyone else at coming out with how much wasted activity they pass off as GDP along with all of the other factors he considers. From what I've seen he's the most thorough global analyst there is right now.
LOYAL AG
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cageybee77 said:

I was reading a financial statement of a Chinese company, can't remember which, and it they clearly state that they do not necessarily follow American GAAP principles. This may be a non-issue for day-traders, but made me tap the brakes a little because I'm not sure what it means for long-term investors (if anything)


that's a good observation. We know the Chinese lie about a lot of things and the lack of integrity combined with the lack of standards you point out is a real cause for concern long term. I actually really like NIO's battery swap idea. IMO is the only way EV truly becomes practical. But until I can believe their numbers I'd never hold it for more than the 1-4 weeks I hold anything else in my trading account.
fig96
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Add me to the "after LK never again" list. Glad it was only a couple hundred bucks.
59 South
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ROKU:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/02/19/roku-stock-next-stop-600/

NIO & TSLA:
https://www.barrons.com/articles/giant-fund-bought-ev-stocks-nio-tesla-intel-sold-ge-51613755670
cageybee77
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Barcharts.com recommended taking a look at TGNA. Looks like a pretty solid company.
Definitely Not A Cop
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Bob Knights Liver said:

People use the $ like a hashtag in front of stock names in posts to make it easier to see ticker names when you're scanning through threads. This is especially helpful for fast moving threads like the stock trading thread. If I'm not in $AAPL I can easily flip through the 3 pages per hour talking about AAPL calls failing.

$LK was this great story of a quick rise in a local company taking market share from a big chain (Starbucks) in high population density areas. Tons of exciting growth potential, until it came out they were cooking the books and not really making the profits they reported. There have been others, but I agree that the lack of international standard audit and accounting principles make me wary of any swing or longer holds on Chinese stocks. I typically avoid. I've had some in the past, but I'm usually quicker to take profits on those than stocks for companies in 'Murica.

A lot of $TSLA long-term investors say they are investing in more than an EV company. They think it will drive technology for all electric generation and storage areas. Also space exploration and other projects. That might happen but at this point that's already priced in so I have a hard time getting on board long-term investment there. I think even if the company does all of those things, we're still going to see a massive price correction before that happens, so I could wait and buy more shares then. The price is sky high because all of the TSLA cult investors have never lost money on it, so they hold no matter what. If we have a correction big enough for some to lose money, there will be some panic selling. Even if it just consolidates for 3-6 months and these folks see their money on the sidelines with the penny stocks and crypto companies making money, I think we'll see a TSLA sell off begin due to FOMO. No inside information, just my speculative take on the company.


If I was going after the SpaceX investment, I would put it in Google, not Tesla. They own something like 10% of SpaceX now.

I'm not sure about Tesla long term, their stock evaluation right now, or really anything. I think the smartest thing Musk could do is get his autonomous vehicle ready for mass use, then license the software to the other big guys and sit back counting the cash as they will all operate under the same system. But I do think one thing really positive Tesla has done is that they have become the Apple of that market sector. The technology and ideas that they have managed to put into the car since they have started have been a real wake-up call to how outdated the inside of the car is for most modern manufacturers. Even if Tesla doesn't succeed long term, their best ideas will be incorporated all across the markets and improve the experience for all users.
MAS444
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So what are we buying on sale today for long term holds?
cageybee77
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I'm waiting until the market has more reasons to go up
cageybee77
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Interesting company I just stumbled on: DIT seems very well managed. Might buy some when the market stabilizes some more. Strong ratios.
Lt. Joe Bookman
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AAPL? 121.7 right now
cageybee77
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Any reason you know it should start going back up?
bmks270
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I can't find any news to explain the huge ROKU drop today.

Also of note is Netflix being in the green today.
fig96
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Because even now it's up 3x over the last two years and is a billion dollar marketing machine?

Stuff is on sale, take advantage of it.
Brian Earl Spilner
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bmks270 said:

I can't find any news to explain the huge ROKU drop today.
Been wondering as well, and I wonder if the news of Disney+'s huge success is translating to Roku losses. (Which doesn't make a ton of sense since part of that success is shared with Roku.)
Lt. Joe Bookman
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cageybee77 said:

Any reason you know it should start going back up?
None other than it's AAPL and they will be up in the long term.
cageybee77
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I was (as usual) unclear. I meant today with all the other "selling" going on.
fig96
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No worries. I invest long term so this is all just a blip along the way for me, there's always ups and downs.
MTTANK
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flyingaggie12 said:

This Office REIT ($FSP - Franklin Street Properties) popped up on my radar the other day and I took a small position. Feel free to poke holes but here is my thesis.


  • First things first, yes it's an office REIT. You have to believe demand for office will continue/come back.
  • As of 9.30.20 TBV was $737.5MM ($6.87/sh) stock is currently trading at $4.34/sh ($465.8MM market cap). 52-week high is 8.24.
  • In total, the REIT owns 32 properties totaling 9,526,822 SF. Based on TBV that's a value of $77/SF, on average, per property. That's an extremely attractive basis, even if the buildings end up to be half leased. See below.
  • T3 NOI for the portfolio has been pretty steady throughout 2020. If I annualize T9 NOI ($128.4MM) and apply a conservative cap rate of 7.0% I get a value for the portfolio of $1.8Bn ($192/SF) less debt I get $839MM ($88/SF). This makes me feel good about the tangible book value above. Properties of this caliber should have no problem fetching those prices (in a normal environment). NOI could decrease ~45% and breakeven in the event of liquidation.
  • The REIT has some development/land assets not included in the calc above.
  • As of 9.30.20, the portfolio is 80% occupied. Not ideal, but most of the portfolio appears to be located in business friendly states across, NC, TX, CO, GA, NC, VA, MO, MN, and IL. If office is gonna struggle its gonna be in higher cost metros such as NY & CA. This portfolio is catering to value conscious tenants and consists of Class B+/A- properties.
  • Although some tenants have requested rent concessions, as of 10/31/20 the REIT had collected 98% of rents due in October. This is a good sign as it shows the tenancy is able to and continues to pay rent even during COVID.
  • Finally, there's been $1MM+ of Insider Buying in the past 6-months in the low $4/sh.
  • Institutional capital has also increased their positions recently, notably Blackrock reported an increase of 518,671 shares at 2.5.21

Thoughts?


Sounds and looks great, up bigly today. The only concerning thing I see is the long term chart. Looks like they went public in 2005 and have steadily decreased in value since then. Are they poorly managed? Selling property or taking out loans to pay a good dividend?
GIG 'EM
cageybee77
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Thanks for posting - on my watch list now
flyingaggie12
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I believe they have sold a couple properties but need to dig in further there.
MTTANK
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flyingaggie12 said:

I believe they have sold a couple properties but need to dig in further there.
Let me know what you find
GIG 'EM
Brian Earl Spilner
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Absolutely. Increased positions on DIS and LUV today.

Sure, it's gonna be a bit longer term, but these purchases are going to look great in 2021.
LUV +91%, DIS +77% as of today.
Bob Knights Paper Hands
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

Absolutely. Increased positions on DIS and LUV today.

Sure, it's gonna be a bit longer term, but these purchases are going to look great in 2021.
LUV +91%, DIS +77% as of today.

My $DAL and $UAL LEAPs are up more than 300%. I only wish I'd have pumped more money into them in early January instead of taking profits.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Wrong thread
 
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